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Atlas Shrugged

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  • 03-06-2010 6:28pm
    #1
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    For those not familiar with it, it's a large table-thumper of a book, written by a Russian emigrée to the USA named Ayn Rand who, through that book and others, expounded a philosophy she called Objectivism, something which she claimed was entirely rational. The book is hugely popular in the USA, and apart from the bible, I gather it's the only book which all the members of the US Congress have claimed to have read (or tried to). Thankfully, the book and Rand are relatively unknown in Europe.

    I've read perhaps the first 150 pages a few years back and could not continue. It's atrociously badly written, even allowing for the fact that English was not Rand's native language. The following quote describes my own opinion of it accurately:
    Some Guy wrote:
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. (comment from "Plugging the Gulf leak with works of Ayn Rand)
    Rand had many followers, one of whom was Alan Greenspan, the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve and it's hard not to view much of his broad policy of "the market comes first" as an acting out of the general social autism that characterizes Rand's writings.

    Anyhow, have anybody read this book and found it worthwhile?

    Hell, forget about getting to the end. Has anybody even got past page 20 without losing the will to live?


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    #2
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    robindch wrote: »
    Hell, forget about getting to the end. Has anybody even got past page 20 without losing the will to live?

    I finished Bioshock on the Xbox, not sure that counts though!


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    #3
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I ordered it online out of curiosity a while back. it never arrived and i never chased it up. maybe the universe was trying to protect me:D still curious to read it though.


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    #4
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    I did read it all, it took a while I have to admit. I was a teenage at the time and was quite taken with the ideas in it, but my views on it have swung almost to the other extreme. Rand's view on charity in particular disturb me a great deal. Her "philosophy" if it can be called would only work in an ideal world. Looking after only oneself and one's own interests is a nice idea in principle, but it's too heartless for me I'm afraid. She seemed to think that all men (she would never say women) are demi-god like and can do as they wish. Whilst this is somewhat inspiring, the cold truth is that some people have unfortunate disadvantages that are not their fault (poverty, disabilities, etc). She would cast these people aside.

    Agree about the terrible, terrible writing, you have only to read the first few pages to experience this.

    Anyway bit of a ramble, I'm afraid my writing is worse than hers; if you made any sense of that you are a genius. :D


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    #5
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #6
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    I was waiting for you donegalfella, suprised to see you hadn't got here sooner. :)

    I agree with your last sentence or two: "Rand probably would have seen Jesus Christ as a contemptible man spreading pernicious ideas, because his teachings constantly extol an ethos of self-sacrifice and selflessness. For her, selfishness and self-preservation were good things."

    I totally think people should hold their heads high with pride as they walk down the high street, and shouldn't shun the opportunities to get in front of the queue in life. But the problem I have is when the needy and helpless don't get helped.

    In the book Rand's antagonists had their own businesses etc. which they managed poorly and wasted. But while these are people who can help themselves if they wanted to, there are many many in our world who cannot feed themselves, and Rand was quite disparaging about such. Although these comments were made mostly outside of her most well known books I think.

    Also, about the private sector: "the productive, wealth-generating capacity of the private sector"; it was unregulated private banks that got us into the last depression. No regulation makes for greedy people.


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    #7
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    robindch wrote: »
    For those not familiar with it, it's a large table-thumper of a book, written by a Russian emigrée to the USA named Ayn Rand who, through that book and others, expounded a philosophy she called Objectivism, something which she claimed was entirely rational. The book is hugely popular in the USA, and apart from the bible, I gather it's the only book which all the members of the US Congress have claimed to have read (or tried to). Thankfully, the book and Rand are relatively unknown in Europe.

    I've read perhaps the first 150 pages a few years back and could not continue. It's atrociously badly written, even allowing for the fact that English was not Rand's native language. The following quote describes my own opinion of it accurately:Rand had many followers, one of whom was Alan Greenspan, the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve and it's hard not to view much of his broad policy of "the market comes first" as an acting out of the general social autism that characterizes Rand's writings.

    Anyhow, have anybody read this book and found it worthwhile?

    Hell, forget about getting to the end. Has anybody even got past page 20 without losing the will to live?

    Strange, as Rand was an atheist and they love their look at me christianity.


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    #8
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    iUseVi wrote: »
    ...She seemed to think that all men (she would never say women) are demi-god like and can do as they wish. Whilst this is somewhat inspiring, the cold truth is that some people have unfortunate disadvantages that are not their fault (poverty, disabilities, etc). She would cast these people aside...
    For me, that seems to explain its popularity in the US. That sort of opinion is rife there - just look at their attitudes towards public healthcare.


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    #9
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    I read it as a teenager.
    My abiding recollection though is that she/the book, conveyed a sense of the dignity of common work. I think it was
    Galt
    who worked in the train tunnels, and through that there were a few admittedly throw away character introduced who came out looking a lot better, despite lack of education, blue collar work etc, than some of the antagonists of the book
    Dartys brother, the clergy members etc.

    Might need to read it again, but that's the impression I was left with, and one I certainly hold dear to today.

    One thing I do know though, she'd have been spitting mad to see banks that failed in a supposedly free market, getting bailed out. What we call the free market today is a far cry from what it was when she was writing.


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    #10
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #11
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Robindch, you clearly dislike anything related to libertarianism and this potshot of a thread exemplifies that. Snide insults aside, tell me, why does this brand of economics and philosophy scare you so much? You even admit your feelings about a book which you have read less than twenty percent of amount to nothing more than base generalisations about those who hold it in high regard. Your idea of "social autism" and your quote above clearly demonstrates your outright refusal to engage Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead or any of Rand's nonfiction writing on even the most basic level. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said this to you before. So you have made your mind up apriori; why do you feel the need to shout about it?

    I'm not attacking you on behalf of an ideology; I simply like reading books and I thought this was a good one. Nothing annoys me more than pointless, politically motivated and uneducated criticisms about a book which someone has barely even read.


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    #12
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    pH wrote: »
    I finished Bioshock on the Xbox, not sure that counts though!
    I think the authors of bioshock were heavily influenced by Atlas Shrugged. I must admit the story of bioshock was crafted much better than that of Atlas Shrugged!


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    #13
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #14
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Haven't read it, but I intend to some day, as so many libertarians say "read Atlas Shrugged" instead of making an argument. That said, I'm so sick of political arguments at this stage that I may not bother.


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    #15
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yeah I would have thanked that comment for sure. :)


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    #16
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I've actually never read it, bought it once and borrowed it twice but the universe alligned itself so that I never opened the front cover on all three occasions. Although I have on two or three occasions had variations of the sentence "why don't you fukk off and go back to reading Atlas Shrugged" thrown at me as (I presume) some kind of insult. So going on that I can guess that it probably aligns with some of my beliefs. Will pick it up in the library at the weekend. Fourth time lucky hopefully.


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    #17
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    Anyhow, have anybody read this book and found it worthwhile?

    I played BioShock? Does that count? :P

    [EDIT] Wow, word for word with pH .. I must be psychic[/EDIT]


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    #18
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Valmont wrote: »
    Robindch, you clearly dislike anything related to libertarianism and this potshot of a thread exemplifies that. Snide insults aside, tell me, why does this brand of economics and philosophy scare you so much?

    Isn't that obvious?

    It makes no provision beyond the rather basic notion of charity, for those who for what ever reason do not excel or do not find themselves in a position to self sustain themselves.

    This is the greatest issue I would have with Objectivism and Libertarianism. Like Communism it largely brushes over the question "Ok, what happens if everything doesn't work as planned"

    I appreciate the argument some put forward that this isn't really the point, that it is a right even if it leads to undesirable outcomes, but really I think that is a weak argument.

    Some what more specifically Objectivism throws out 1.5 million years of evolutionary instinct, and I think it is of little surprise that Rand herself ended up isolated and depressed in the later years of her life. We as a species are not designed to think in Objectivistic terms. It makes us unhappy and stressful.


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    #19
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #20
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I
    Some what more specifically Objectivism throws out 1.5 million years of evolutionary instinct
    What evolutionary instinct are you talking about?


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    #21
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    This sounds like the type of read I would have read as a teenager. But given that I didn't, I'm unlikely to entertain reading it for another 20 years.

    With two kids I read for pleasure.

    Liking this thread, though. Feisty!


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    #22
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #23
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #24
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Valmont wrote: »
    Robindch, you clearly dislike anything related to libertarianism and this potshot of a thread exemplifies that. Snide insults aside, tell me, why does this brand of economics and philosophy scare you so much?
    <grin>

    Rand and her writings don't "scare" me any more than the warblings of L Ron Hubbard.

    On the contrary, I dislike Rand and what she said, because, as Wicknight implied, it's a selfish philosophy which glorifies self-promotion at the expense of the public good. As she said herself:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ukJiBZ8_4k

    Ayn Rand wrote:
    I am challenging the moral code of altruism, the precept that man's moral duty is to live for others.
    Given Rand's background as one of the dispossessed jewish Sankt Petersbourgeoisie and growing up in the febrile atmosphere of early 20th Century St Pete, this dim view of civil society is not unexpected. In fact, her entire Objectivist movement appears -- as far as I can see -- to be an extended exercise in condemning a generalized society that could have helped her and her family, but did not.

    Us humans are intensely social animals and we're simply not designed to behave as Rand wants us to. Nor indeed, could our society function if we did.

    For example, in a Randian world, how long would we have to wait for BP to plug the hole in the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico?


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    #25
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    On the contrary, when it comes to complying with the government's business regulations, Ireland is one of the easiest and cheapest countries in the world to operate in:

    http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreEconomies/?economyid=93


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    #26
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #27
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Yep, designed by evolution to be social :)

    What other species has invented beer?


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    #28
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #29
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I must say, I never expected to have to defend the proposition that humans are social :)

    Are you seriously saying that humans are non-social, and that we're better off -- for however you choose to define "better" -- not co-operating with each other for our mutual benefit?


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    #30
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I would consider myself to be a fairly extreme case of an introvert - I'm the only person in my social circle who has striven to live alone - but I still think of myself as a social animal.


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    #31
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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