School patronage

expectationlost · 26-03-2015 10:14pm

State-funded schools 'discriminating against non-baptised children'

Dr Frank Hurl of Catholic Comment said that the only time it becomes an issue is if a school is oversubscribed.

"I think the only time that a baptism cert would come into play is when there's oversubscription in a particular area, and that's really an issue for the Department of Education rather than the local school," he said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/state-funded-schools-discriminating-against-non-baptised-children-669105.html

oh that's okay then..

that's what you call discrimination mr, preferences for religious in state funded schools

recedite · 27-03-2015 2:10am

Dr Frank Hurl of Catholic Comment said that the only time it becomes an issue is if a school is oversubscribed.

What a dickhead.
Isn't that what they told Rosa Parks back in the day in Alabama. Stop complaining, you only have to get off the bus when its "oversubscribed" by white people. At other times you can have a seat.

expectationlost · 27-03-2015 1:10pm

http://www.newstalk.com/POLL:-Would-you-baptise-your-child-for-the-sole-purpose-of-getting-them-into-a-certain-school
brian whiteside and mr catholic comment were on newstalk breakfast http://www.newstalk.com/player/shows/Breakfast/5/17401/26th_March_2015_-_Breakfast_Part_4 at 11mins

talks about a catholic school that have many different children of many religions atttending, and they did a project on all different religions, but do you rekcon they did a project on atheism ?

frank may be leaving out that there might be catholics from further away getting in in front of the non-reilgious child

brian whiteside says they are criticsing the dept of ed not churches, they have all the cso stats and civil servants to figure it out

expectationlost · 27-03-2015 1:48pm

Non-religious parents are being discriminated against by our outdated school system http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/baptism-schools-admissions-ireland-2013938-Mar2015/

In an extract from the report of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (Geneva, July 2008) it noted with concern that the vast majority of Ireland’s primary schools are privately run denominational schools that have adopted a religious integrated curriculum, thus depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education.

brian whiteside director of humanist association writes as part of his campaign, again this is not political....?

expectationlost · 09-04-2015 6:25pm

Save National Schools ~ An attempt to subvert the Constitution https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/save-national-schools-an-attempt-to-subvert-the-constitution/ via Dialogue Ireland The Minister for Education must be stopped from signing Deeds of Variation in National Schools. There should be a detailed debate about this matter in the Oireachtas before any changes are considered.

Note: All Catholic primary schools established before 1997 are subject to a lease signed when the
school was set up. This lease included an undertaking that the school would be managed in
accordance with the Rules for National Schools.
In 1997, the patrons and the Minister for Education agreed (following discussions with the
education
partners) to vary the terms of the existing leases. The new document (Deed of Variation), which
supplements the original lease, provides that the school will be managed in accordance with the
rules laid down by the Minister for Education and in accordance with a Roman Catholic Ethos.
The new agreement will also be used in the case of all Catholic primary schools established in the
future.

https://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/150407-deed-of-variation.pdf

so this started in 1997?

I think gov going to cement religion into national schools, so the buildings can't be used by non-religious if the population requires it

a PQ was asked about it recently https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-31a.1262&s=deed+of+variation#g1263.q

Secretary Generals speech http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Speeches/2015-Speeches/Sp-%202015-%2003-13.html

although there was some change already in 1997
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2005-01-26.3158.0&s=%22deed+of+variation%22#g3160.0.r

not sure what this is all about yet

expectationlost · 09-04-2015 8:01pm

List of Organisations Date Contacted Date of Reply Registered

Humanist Association of Ireland 07/04/2015 08/04/2015 No

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/Website/en/Reports/Register-of-Third-Parties/

I just don't get it SIPO

magicbastarder · 09-04-2015 8:16pm

i had an argument with my folks (mid 60s) about this recently. their position was informed by their (otherwise actually fairly reasonable) PP's argument that the catholic schools should give up religious education when the school attached to the mosque in clonskeagh gave up teaching the kids in islamic belief; a 'if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us' position.
i went close to apoplectic with amazement that he'd missed the point by such a staggeringly wide margin. i think the sincerity of my indignation actually managed to convince them of the folly of his argument.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-04-2015 12:49am

expectationlost wrote: »

Save National Schools ~ An attempt to subvert the Constitution https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/save-national-schools-an-attempt-to-subvert-the-constitution/ via Dialogue Ireland The Minister for Education must be stopped from signing Deeds of Variation in National Schools. There should be a detailed debate about this matter in the Oireachtas before any changes are considered.

I think gov going to cement religion into national schools, so the buildings can't be used by non-religious if the population requires it

a PQ was asked about it recently https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-03-31a.1262&s=deed+of+variation#g1263.q

although there was some change in 1997
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2005-01-26.3158.0&s=%22deed+of+variation%22#g3160.0.r

not sure what this is all about yet

I thought Dialogue Ireland was an anti-cult site and have read some pretty good stuff on it before. But that article reads like Iona mixed in with the Burkes.

Does anybody know wtf Jan O'Sullivan is up to? Does she...? because although I accept that putting kids names onto waiting lists at birth is dreadful, it's the only way non-believers can give themselves any sort of priority to get into an ET ahead of the bouncy castle catholics.

expectationlost · 10-04-2015 1:24am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I thought Dialogue Ireland was an anti-cult site and have read some pretty good stuff on it before. But that article reads like Iona mixed in with the Burkes.

Does anybody know wtf Jan O'Sullivan is up to? Does she...? because although I accept that putting kids names onto waiting lists at birth is dreadful, it's the only way non-believers can give themselves any sort of priority to get into an ET ahead of the bouncy castle catholics.

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.

http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Absolam · 10-04-2015 5:20am

expectationlost wrote: »

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?
This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.
http://www.cscs.ie/?page_id=17

Isn't that about abolishing the religious oath of office? What does it have to do with the end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

Hotblack Desiato · 10-04-2015 10:20am

expectationlost wrote: »

The end of the Irish State’s commitment to a non-denominational system of national (primary) education using the National School system?

This open letter was sent today by Citizens for Separation of Church and State to the members of the Oireachtas.

http://www.cscs.ie/?page_id=17

Correct link is here http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Disturbing.

expectationlost · 10-04-2015 10:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Correct link is here http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32

Disturbing.

sorry thanks.

my confusion is did this not already happen in 1997?

Hotblack Desiato · 11-04-2015 12:19am

expectationlost wrote: »

my confusion is did this not already happen in 1997?

I've no idea, but I'd be interested to know, what happened in 1997? do you mean the Michael Woods paedophile bailout?

expectationlost · 11-04-2015 12:31am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I've no idea, but I'd be interested to know, what happened in 1997? do you mean the Michael Woods paedophile bailout?

no that the 'variation of deeds' was changed so the school building could only be used for that religions schooling?

recedite · 11-04-2015 10:48pm

Most peculiar, but my reading of it is...
The 1997 thing is that older leases did not not specifically say the school would be denominational, just that it would be run in accordance with the Dept of Education rulebook. The rulebook stated that religious education was very important etc. but also that it was to be kept separate from secular education (which latter provision was rarely or never honoured). Also it was just assumed in earlier times that whichever religion owned the school building was the one that controlled the religious teaching.
At some point in the 1990s (presumably with the rise of ET schools) it occurred to the owners of the schools that it might be possible for the Dept. to "re-allocate" the patronage of their school to a different patron.
This could be a legal nightmare if the religion refused to co-operate, akin to a divorced couple dividing up their assets. The religion might have owned the original building, but the Dept. might have built up the size of the school via numerous building capitation grants over the years.
The revised lease is guaranteeing that the school patronage cannot change without the prior agreement of the religion. Therefore the religion keeps control of the state's capital investment in perpetuity. I'm guessing that the state was never going to get into that confrontational situation anyway. So this doesn't make much practical difference. On the other hand they are now giving away a bargaining chip, apparently for free.

But the "nuclear option" is still available to the state; ie withdraw public funding from a school patron they don't like, thereby making it's school fees too expensive to be viable. So even if all denominational schools had these leases, if it wanted to, the state could still "suggest" at a later stage that half of them be "donated" to the state for a nominal sum in return for public funding of the other half.

Its possible that RCC has given some secret undertaking to the Dept. that they will hand over some schools in return for the concession, but we are not told this.

shruikan2553 · 12-04-2015 1:56am

recedite wrote: »

Most peculiar, but my reading of it is...
The 1997 thing is that older leases did not not specifically say the school would be denominational, just that it would be run in accordance with the Dept of Education rulebook. The rulebook stated that religious education was very important etc. but also that it was to be kept separate from secular education (which latter provision was rarely or never honoured). Also it was just assumed in earlier times that whichever religion owned the school building was the one that controlled the religious teaching.
At some point in the 1990s (presumably with the rise of ET schools) it occurred to the owners of the schools that it might be possible for the Dept. to "re-allocate" the patronage of their school to a different patron.
This could be a legal nightmare if the religion refused to co-operate, akin to a divorced couple dividing up their assets. The religion might have owned the original building, but the Dept. might have built up the size of the school via numerous building capitation grants over the years.
The revised lease is guaranteeing that the school patronage cannot change without the prior agreement of the religion. Therefore the religion keeps control of the state's capital investment in perpetuity. I'm guessing that the state was never going to get into that confrontational situation anyway. So this doesn't make much practical difference. On the other hand they are now giving away a bargaining chip, apparently for free.

But the "nuclear option" is still available to the state; ie withdraw public funding from a school patron they don't like, thereby making it's school fees too expensive to be viable. So even if all denominational schools had these leases, if it wanted to, the state could still "suggest" at a later stage that half of them be "donated" to the state for a nominal sum in return for public funding of the other half.

Its possible that RCC has given some secret undertaking to the Dept. that they will hand over some schools in return for the concession, but we are not told this.

It's an option but political suicide. Reduce funding for a school and you have the religious claiming that camps are next and everyone else about damage to the children's education.

expectationlost · 18-04-2015 2:44am

3 pqs on this, deeds of variation thing

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.1967&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g1969.r

doesn't really answer the question, there was a change of deeds in the 90's based on state investment in the buildings and its run out?

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.2020&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g2022.r
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-04-15a.2063&s=%22School+Patronage%22#g2065.r

PopePalpatine · 22-04-2015 5:45pm

Is anyone listening to The Last Word on Today FM right now? Aron Ra is discussing religion in schools with the Head of Religious Education at Mater Dei.

silverharp · 22-04-2015 7:49pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Is anyone listening to The Last Word on Today FM right now? Aron Ra is discussing religion in schools with the Head of Religious Education at Mater Dei.

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/19789/22nd_April_2015_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_2

link above about 35min in . it was too short an interview to be of much use and I'd say Aron is more used to dealing with evangelicals than soft spoken nothing to see here catholics.

recedite · 22-04-2015 9:24pm

silverharp wrote: »

http://www.todayfm.com/player/listen_back/7/19789/22nd_April_2015_-_The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper_Part_2

link above about 35min in .

(Its on the 2nd segment of the show)
I thought Amon Ra, Not The Sun God did a good interview. Obviously if you invite an American guest you are going to get something of an American perspective.
His Irish opponent/balance was Dr Gareth Byrne, whose tactic was to use a softly spoken "we're all much more reasonable over here". He came unstuck though when the interviewer asked about non-catholic kids in primary schools. At first he said they don't have to attend the faith formation classes, but then he had to admit they would be sent to the back of the class and given extra work to do.
When I was at school, that was considered a form of punishment!
Dr Byrne was very honest though, to be fair.

expectationlost · 22-04-2015 9:27pm

FF Ard Clar education motion

123.That this Ard Fheis supports equalisation of funding for voluntary secondary schools to bring them into line with state schools and thus ensure equality for all students.
Fermoyle Cumann, Clare CDC

https://www.scribd.com/doc/262732869/Clar-2015-An-Ireland-for-All

like to find the detail of this

lazygal · 22-04-2015 9:34pm

It's a muddled motion. There are no State schools in Ireland. All operate under the patronage model, which means the State pays for the majority of costs for most schools (salaries, buildings etc) and then there is a top up from outside sources like parents. When I was in secondary school a voluntary contribution was expected and there was a fundraising drive to fund 10% of the cost of a new building.

I think this motion essentially means they want more funding for religious schools, such as those catering for minority faiths, to make them the same as VEC/ETB schools. I plan on reminding any canvassers in the local elections that there are no State schools in Ireland and asking how they would change that.

shruikan2553 · 22-04-2015 9:37pm

lazygal wrote: »

It's a muddled motion. There are no State schools in Ireland. All operate under the patronage model, which means the State pays for the majority of costs for most schools (salaries, buildings etc) and then there is a top up from outside sources like parents. When I was in secondary school a voluntary contribution was expected and there was a fundraising drive to fund 10% of the cost of a new building.

I think this motion essentially means they want more funding for religious schools, such as those catering for minority faiths, to make them the same as VEC/ETB schools. I plan on reminding any canvassers in the local elections that there are no State schools in Ireland and asking how they would change that.

Isnt 10% what they have to pay themselves while the government pay the other 90?

lazygal · 22-04-2015 9:41pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Isnt 10% what they have to pay themselves while the government pay the other 90?

Yes, 10% for salaries, and the schools make up the rest. I guess that's what my parents' 'voluntary contributions' were for.

So I guess the FF party wants 100% of funding for religious schools to come from the State, while presumably allowing such schools to discriminate against the children of those taxpayers.

I know its Wiki but it has a breakdown of secondary schools:

Voluntary secondary schools, or just "secondary schools", are owned and managed by religious communities or private organisations. The state funds 90% of teachers' salaries and 95% of other costs. Such schools cater for 57% of secondary pupils.
Vocational schools are owned and managed by Education and Training Boards, with 93% of their costs met by the state. These schools educate 28% of secondary pupils.
Comprehensive schools or community schools were established in the 1960s, often by amalgamating voluntary secondary and vocational schools. They are fully funded by the state, and run by local boards of management. Nearly 15% of secondary pupils attend such schools.
Gaelcholáistes are the second-level schools for Irish language medium education sector in English-speaking communities. Approximately 3% of secondary students attend these schools. Please see Gaelscoileanna for the Irish language primary level sector. There are 368 Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí in Ireland.
Grind Schools are fee paying privately run schools outside the state sector, who tend to run only Senior Cycle 5th and 6th year as well as a one-year repeat Leaving Certificate programme.

recedite · 22-04-2015 10:05pm

The "voluntary secondary schools" are denominational faith schools.
A lot of them are known to most people as "private schools". They may or may not charge fees, but they reserve the right to exclude/discriminate against certain types of people in their admission policies, and to use school time for their specific religious indoctrination.

IMO the 90-95% funding is far too much for them. It should be on a sliding scale of 0% to about 80% depending on how exclusionary they are, and how suitable/unsuitable their practices are to a pupil of a different (or no) faith.

shruikan2553 · 22-04-2015 10:13pm

recedite wrote: »

The "voluntary secondary schools" are denominational faith schools.
A lot of them are known to most people as "private schools". They may or may not charge fees, but they reserve the right to exclude/discriminate against certain types of people in their admission policies, and to use school time for their specific religious indoctrination.

IMO the 90-95% funding is far too much for them. It should be on a sliding scale of 0% to about 80% depending on how exclusionary they are, and how suitable/unsuitable their practices are to a pupil of a different (or no) faith.

And the rest has to be actually paid by the patron rather than getting the parents to pay.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-05-2015 9:20pm

The religious and lay of the land: school ethos in flux

The presence of religious personnel in Irish schools has been diminishing for decades, falling from 3,700 at postprimary level in 1970 to just 30 in full-time teaching positions today. However, while their day-to-day involvement in schools has all but disappeared, their influence has not.

Following a period of appraisal and consultation during the 1990s, religious orders began to establish trusts (predominantly comprising lay people) to retain and further the denominational character of their schools, which account for about 96 per cent of all State-funded schools at primary level and 56 per cent at post-primary level. That responsibility has since been enshrined in the Education Act of 1998.

Nothing atall atall to do with religious orders getting sued...

As part of Fr Richard Byrne’s PhD research, he surveyed students in five case-study schools and found that, while most believed in God, weekly religious practice was extremely low. The 37 principals interviewed said parents very rarely approach them with questions or concerns about the religious upbringing of their children.

So why is so much valulable class time spent on religion when hardly any pupils or parents really want it?

If freedom of religion is the basic tangible in play, Daly says, then the freedom of non-religious parents and teachers who may be put in a position of uncertainty or inferiority is just as relevant. Having to baptise your child or feign a religious belief to secure a school place, he says, amounts to an interference of choice.

expectationlost · 08-05-2015 3:58pm

a voter advice application has been developed for carlow kilkenny
labour candidate willie quinns answer to

Too many primary schools are under religious patronage

The candidate did not answer the question.

School users and parents should decide what is best for their school. As result of former Minister Ruairi Quinn's policy changes, parents and pupils now have a choice in a lot of areas as to what school to attend according to that school's particular patronage.

a party line man in all his answer,do you think ths is true nationally, is it even the case in Carlow Kilkenny?

carlow primary schools
http://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/School-List/?level=Primary&geo=Carlow&ethos=-1&lang=-1&gender=-1 a score of primaries 1 ET

kilkenny primary schools http://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/School-List/?level=Primary&geo=Kilkenny&ethos=-1&lang=-1&gender=-1 a score of primaries 1 ET

Hotblack Desiato · 08-05-2015 8:46pm

pupils now have a choice in a lot of areas as to what school to attend according to that school's particular patronage

Böllöcks

lazygal · 08-05-2015 9:17pm

There's plenty of pointless duplication of schools on patronage grounds, but what if you don't want your child educated by those patrons?

expectationlost · 21-05-2015 6:49pm

Jan O'Sullivan A small number of deeds of variation were signed prior to 2006. Since that time there have been ongoing discussions with the relevant patron bodies in relation to the wording of the Deeds of Variation, and no deeds have been signed in the interim.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-05-19a.1242&s=%22School+Patronage%22

PopePalpatine · 21-05-2015 7:22pm

Don't you just hate legalese?

Hotblack Desiato · 21-05-2015 9:03pm

Lot of talk in the media in the last couple of days about how the referendum won't affect education.

So these unelected, unaccountable, state-funded 'patrons' still get to lie to kids, tell them about 'traditional marriage', no divorce, no contraception, gayness is a sin, etc. etc.

Great :mad:

expectationlost · 24-05-2015 3:37pm

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/ireland.same.sex.marriage.vote.catholic.church.needs.a.reality.check.says.archbishop/54560.htm qouting RTE interview on 6.1 yesterday

He said: "I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I'm saying there's a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church."

martin seems the one most open to releasing buildings for others to use but it hasn't helped that much yet, he often said whatever are we teaching them we're not teaching them our values, indicating that we may have that crunch of catholic schools becoming more catholic at a point when we still have lots of non- /or pretend /catholics in their schools.

barretsimpson · 25-05-2015 3:05pm

expectationlost wrote: »

martin seems the one most open to releasing buildings for others to use but it hasn't helped that much yet, he often said whatever are we teaching them we're not teaching them our values, indicating that we may have that crunch of catholic schools becoming more catholic at a point when we still have lots of non- /or pretend /catholics in their schools.

Quinn's plan was to allow the majority of parents in a school to decide if it should remain Catholic or not. Martin was only too happy to oblige, and between the two of them they were confident of off loading a load of "Catholic" schools. The cultural Catholic parents of Ireland, who are no more Catholic that the man in the moon, i.e. the usual census ticker types, however, didn't play predictable ball as usual, and voted mostly to remain "Catholic" schools, when the schools are anything but. There's a silver lining in the cloud though, whatever the replacement for "Catholic" schools, and as bad as they are, I wouldn't let the Irish state educate my dog, never mind my child. Parents, religious or not, if they have any sense, need to retain control of their own schools if they value their kids education.

SpaceTime · 25-05-2015 3:17pm

I'm confronting this straight on at the moment myself.

One of my very close relatives had a child recently. The couple are an Irish atheist and a person from another country who would have grown up without any religious beliefs really at all and if you go back into their family further, they're not catholic / christian by a long shot - totally different culture.

Anyway they decided, logically enough, not to baptise their child. The amount of pressure they're coming under is insane!

We've had people saying things like "Oh you're denying your poor little girl the right to her day out" (communion)
You're going to make her "different"
"She's already different enough" (thinly veiled racism)
"You're being awkward" (ehmm. yes.. just pretend you're both catholics and go with the flow?! That's not at all completely hypocritical.)

Several patronising relatives have also pointed out how disappointed they are that they're not keeping "family traditions".
They even had a christianising robe sent to them with a mass card!

They're in an urban area, so there is a choice of schools, but they're quite limited relative to the choice if you were Catholic.

We checked enrolment policies and they're all basically along the lines of :

"Welcome to the Holy Stone of Clonrichert and Passion of St Tibulus National School :

We welcome all children, but Catholics first.

If you're not a Catholic, you can be vaguely tolerated in our school although we do have to accommodate all of our lovely catholic children first before we can find a place for a big smelly heathen like yourself.
Have you considered just going back to wherever it was you came from?"

To my relative's partner this is coming across not only as weird, she's interpreting it as xenophobic.
Her immediate reaction was is this because I'm (insert nationality).

What she sees is that she's living in Ireland, she's quite happy to embrace being Irish, participate in Irish society, be a part of the community - but she's not prepared to just switch over to Catholicism and considers it pretty much similar to what certain extreme Islamic countries do, only a bit more 'softly softly'.

The sad reality of the situation is Ireland has allowed a system to develop where we have no public schools.

They've joined an ET startup group, but it's kinda crazy that parents are being put through this.

Do they get a tax break on the % of their money that goes towards funding schools their kids can't use?
Not a hope!

...

Also, in the context of the recent referendum.

What if your kid's LGBT? It's not only possible, it's relatively common ... I don't really want to see a situation where I'd have to send an kid I may have or any of my cousins to a school that would be able to legally discriminate against them or at the very best pretend they don't exist.

This isn't a minor issue either...

No other aspect of Irish society or services can do that, so why should a school be able to get away with discrimination like that against either students or staff?

How is this acceptable in a republic?!
Do we even know what the word "republic" means?

barretsimpson · 25-05-2015 3:24pm

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls, our local "Catholic" school has a load of non baptised children from all nationalities and walks of life.

Don't baptise anyone just for the sake of it.

I know oaths mean very little anymore to most people, but can you really stand up and say this on the day with sincerity ?

V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.
V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
R. Amen.

SpaceTime · 25-05-2015 3:28pm

barretsimpson wrote: »

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls, our local "Catholic" school has a load of non baptised children from all nationalities and walks of life.

Don't baptise anyone just for the sake of it.

I know oaths mean very little anymore to most people, but can you really stand up and say this on the day with sincerity ?

They've no intentions of baptising for the sake of it.

As much a propaganda / balls it might be, it's potentially a major issue.

I don't want my relative sitting in the back of some classroom being excluded and that seems to be what happens.
I know my own experience of school here was highly variable - ranging from the odd dogmatic teacher to far more liberal ones.

I 'came out' as an atheist in school and got torn apart for it though which wasn't very nice. I'd a priest actually insult me, my family and my whole upbringing. It was very offensive to put it mildly.

I also remember as a kid here in the 1990s being told that if I didn't go to mass every week that my parents weren't fit to be parents. That I couldn't go to secondary school as I wouldn't be let in if I didn't make my confirmation and even that I could be put into care as my parents were neglecting my 'spiritual needs' (By an old priest who had it in for me). This guy was a bit senile but my mother nearly hit the roof when she found out why I wouldn't go to school anymore.

I was faking stomach aches, refusing to get out of bed, doing runners on the way to school and not turning up etc etc.

barretsimpson · 25-05-2015 3:43pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

They've no intentions of baptising for the sake of it.

As much a propaganda / balls it might be, it's potentially a major issue.

I don't want my relative sitting in the back of some classroom being excluded and that seems to be what happens.
I know my own experience of school here was highly variable - ranging from the odd dogmatic teacher to far more liberal ones.

I 'came out' as an atheist in school and got torn apart for it though which wasn't very nice. I'd a priest actually insult me, my family and my whole upbringing. It was very offensive to put it mildly.

I also remember as a kid here in the 1990s being told that if I didn't go to mass every week that my parents weren't fit to be parents. That I couldn't go to secondary school as I wouldn't be let in if I didn't make my confirmation and even that I could be put into care as my parents were neglecting my 'spiritual needs' (By an old priest who had it in for me). This guy was a bit senile but my mother nearly hit the roof when she found out why I wouldn't go to school anymore.

I was faking stomach aches, refusing to get out of bed, doing runners on the way to school and not turning up etc etc.

No baptism cert or lack off will prevent any of that.
Our local "Catholic" school has a load of happy, and non baptised, kids.
Children should not be baptised as Catholics when they are not. Don't listen to the bull.

robindch · 25-05-2015 3:45pm

Can't remember if I posted this, don't think I did, but for complicated reasons to do entirely with my little Snowflake's wishes to see what went on in a church, we decided to drop by a local church for the communion service for the ten out of thirty kids undergoing it in her class. All the relevant kids were kitted out in their best, smiling, surrounded by friends and relatives. Snowflake and I, and some other non-religious friends, standing out somewhat by our less than stellar clothes and bemused air. Two Fr Ted moments though:

Priest: OK, children, you have to tell Jesus that you're his friend, so say "Jesus, you're my friend" and wave your arms up like this (does a Nazi salute)
Kids: Jesus, you're my friend (kids do Nazi salute)
Priest: I can't hear you
Kids: Jesus, You're My Friend! (kids do Nazi salute again)
Priest: Parents, I can't hear you!
Kids: JESUS, YOU'RE MY FRIEND! (kids do Nazi salute a third time; parents do not do a Nazi salute)

And just after the communion itself:

Priest: Children, close your eyes now because Jesus has come.

Snowflake hasn't asked to return to a church.

robindch · 25-05-2015 6:20pm

The Board of Directors of Educate Together has decided that it will no longer describe itself as a ‘multi-denominational’ organisation but will use the term ‘Equality-based’ instead:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/important-step-educate-together

expectationlost · 25-05-2015 6:39pm

robindch wrote: »

The Board of Directors of Educate Together has decided that it will no longer describe itself as a ‘multi-denominational’ organisation but will use the term ‘Equality-based’ instead:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/important-step-educate-together

are they going to retract this statement

The Educate Together model of schooling satisfies all the requirements envisaged by the UN Human Rights Committee. Educate Together has no affiliation to any religious organisation and is thus 'non-denominational'. In the operation of its schools Educate Together respects the background of all children equally and does not promote any particular religious or other beliefs.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/un-calls-for-diversity

or is just a continuation of muddying waters with new PR spin

lazygal · 25-05-2015 7:30pm

Under rule 68 Children coming to know God and religion vivifying the whole school day are legal requirements for Irish schools. Either educate together are doing religion in some form that satisfies that requirement or they are ignoring the rule and there's a don't ask don't tell attitude on the part of educate together and the department.

recedite · 25-05-2015 8:40pm

I think this is an excellent move by ET. Only a few years ago the Rule 68 requirement was taken much more seriously by Dept. of Education, and any school not providing some sort of religious indoctrination during school hours was at a real risk of being denied public funding. No school could describe itself as "non-denominational" for that reason.
Gradually ET managed to negotiate permission from the dept. to hold the indoctrination/specific faith formation classes only as an after school activity.

It has reached the stage now (following criticism from UN Human Rights Committee that we have no publicly funded non-denominational primary schools) that ET could probably reclassify itself as a non-denominational school, and get away with it. But why bother?

Now we have ET refusing to identify in "denominational" terms at all, which is much better.
"Denominationalness", as a concept, is only a construct of the religious. Why play by their rules at all? Why define something that is essentially non-religious in any religious terms at all? Calling it an Equality Based school is a stroke of genius, because who can argue with equality? Let those schools who practice religious discrimination in their admission and employment policies call themselves Non-Equality schools, if they like.

Those ETB and RC schools which do not practice religious discrimination in the admissions, but which continue to teach a RC faith formation program to pupils in the full knowledge that the majority of those pupils are not even RC, can continue to call themselves "multidenominational". But now the meaning of that terminology, as commonly perceived, will change.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-05-2015 1:57am

barretsimpson wrote: »

The enrolment scaremongering is a load of propaganda balls

That is FAR from being the case everywhere, some areas have lots of school places, others have real shortages

Areas which are seen as 'desirable' have kids from outside the area with the right piece of religious paper jumping the queue and forcing out local kids without the right piece of religious paper.

A lot of people who say they "need" to baptise their child to get a school place are wrong, but they're not all wrong.

Delirium · 26-05-2015 11:55am

Legislation on school and hospital staff to be amended

Legislation to prevent schools and hospitals discriminating against current or future employees because of their sexuality will be in place by summer.

Minister of State for Equality Aodhán Ó Ríordáin said he is working hard to ensure the Employment Equality Act will be amended by September, when the new school term starts.

“Recently the Irish National Teachers’ Organisation had an event in Áras an Uachtaráin where they met President Michael D Higgins. A number of people stepped out of the picture with the President because they were worried at being identified as gay teachers. They fear it would impact on their employment prospects or felt it might go against them in their workplace.

“So while we rightly celebrate marriage equality, there is still some uncertainty and a certain chill factor with gay and lesbian people, especially in schools.”

expectationlost · 26-05-2015 5:13pm

SW wrote: »

Legislation on school and hospital staff to be amended

another promise from Aodhain O'Riordan he's full of them.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-05-2015 9:46pm

expectationlost wrote: »

another promise from Aodhain O'Riordan he's full of them.

The situation with atheist teachers is exactly the same, the truth coming out would render one almost unemployable as a primary teacher in Ireland, and it's not just having to do the religion cert in teacher training college, lie to get the job, or having to lie convincingly to kids day in day out, it's maintaining the facade, being expected to be seen at church, parish events etc. how is this form of legalised discrimination any more justifiable than the one he's saying he'll remove?

And of course the schools will still be able to refuse admission to kids purely on the basis of religion.

Trent Houseboat · 27-05-2015 2:14pm

Good podcast from the times today featuring Aodhan O'Riordan and John Murray

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inside-politics

Inside Politics. Equality v Ethos: LGBT Teachers

The removal of the 'chilling effect' of current legistlation on LGBT teachers employed by
religious schools is seen by some as the next step on the march
towards equality, and moves are afoot to make legislative changes. But
how well can the competing rights to equality and religious freedom be
balanced? Hugh is joined by Minister of State for Equality Aodhán Ó
Ríordáin, Iona Institute Chairman and Mater Dei lecturer John Murray
and Ruadhán Mac Cormaic of The Irish Times.

Plus, Ruadhán explains what legislative moves will follow the passing
of the marriage referendum.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-05-2015 1:16am

Would the Iona Institute ever f**k off the stage. Have the people of Ireland not suffered enough the last few months?

School patronage

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