Love, Hell and the nature of God.

JimiTime · 22-11-2007 1:35pm #1

Hello y'all,
This is something that came up on another thread that folk seemed to back away from. I'm going to put it out there and hope to get christian response.

I'd like to approach this as a non-believer, so 'look at what it says here', does not make it valid to me. I want to know about the nature of your God.

It is said, God is Love. So, not God loves, rather God 'is' Love.
It is also said, God is merciful.
It is said that God made us all immortal.
It is also said that God has made it so the consequence of wickedness is to burn 'forever' for no other purpose but to suffer.

I suppose the first thing is, where do you get the doctrine of the immortal soul?
Is Gods hands tied by this? I.E. It is impossible for us to die (immortal) so he 'cannot' destroy us? If he can destroy us, this is not immortality.
Why did God make it so that the consequence for wickedness is to be tortured forever?
Why would he not just destroy the wicked if he judges them to be beyond redemption?
Would you see this as a loving act? I've heard the explaination that people do it themselves by rejecting God. However, I'm not talking about there being consequences for wickedness, that would indeed be fine. However, it is god who made the consequence, to burn forever with no chance of redemption.

I'd love to get your views, because I can certainly not reconsile such a doctrine with Love. Maybe you could enlighten me?

kelly1 · 22-11-2007 6:05pm

JimiTime wrote: »

It is said, God is Love. So, not God loves, rather God 'is' Love.
It is also said, God is merciful.
It is said that God made us all immortal.
It is also said that God has made it so the consequence of wickedness is to burn 'forever' for no other purpose but to suffer.

Hello again

God is also just and His justice demands that atonement be made for sin through suffering.

JimiTime wrote: »

I suppose the first thing is, where do you get the doctrine of the immortal soul?

Because scripture speaks of "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" it's clear that the soul is immortal.

JimiTime wrote: »

Is Gods hands tied by this? I.E. It is impossible for us to die (immortal) so he 'cannot' destroy us? If he can destroy us, this is not immortality.
Why did God make it so that the consequence for wickedness is to be tortured forever?
Why would he not just destroy the wicked if he judges them to be beyond redemption?

God could have destroyed Satan and didn't. It must be related to His Justice. The scales of justice must be balanced. Sin tips the scales one way and suffering tips them the other way. If God wasn't just, He wouldn't be God.

Would you see this as a loving act? I've heard the explaination that people do it themselves by rejecting God. However, I'm not talking about there being consequences for wickedness, that would indeed be fine. However, it is god who made the consequence, to burn forever with no chance of redemption.

At the point of death the impenitent sinner has burnt the bridge to God. Mercy is replaced with Justice. I don't see how God could love the damned.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 2:27am

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello again

Howaya:)

God is also just and His justice demands that atonement be made for sin through suffering.

But there is no atonement. Atonement is a purpose. The doctrine of fiery hell says there is no atonement or redemption, just sufering forever. So it has no other purpose put to have people suffer. If there was a chance of redemption, then you could probably argue that, but there isn't, so its only purpose is to have people suffer. You understand?

Because scripture speaks of "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" it's clear that the soul is immortal.

Firstly, there is a difference between immortality and eternal life. Eternal life can be given to you and can be conditional. Immortality means you cannot be destroyed. A huge difference. Also, are you saying that the doctrine of the immortal soul is based on this?

God could have destroyed Satan and didn't. It must be related to His Justice. The scales of justice must be balanced. Sin tips the scales one way and suffering tips them the other way. If God wasn't just, He wouldn't be God.

I agree, God is just. Where does the concept of suffering tipping the scale come in? Also, how do you equate suffering 'forever' with no chance of redemption, so no purpose, with around 60 years of sin?

At the point of death the impenitent sinner has burnt the bridge to God. Mercy is replaced with Justice. I don't see how God could love the damned.

God bless,
Noel.

Ok, burning forever in suffering and torture, does not seem just to me for lets say a 60 year life. Do you see that as just?

Also, why did the mosaic law command the killing of people who commited certain sins? If suffering is what tipped the scale, why were they not tortured to death? And if suffering is in fact Gods method for atoning for sin, but some are judged unattonable (is that even a word), i.e. those who go to hell, then it is a pointless exercise because they'll never be atoned. So again, whats the point?

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 11:19am

Not a very popular topic it seems

Any takers? I guess I am correct in assuming that there is no valid answers so? Or am I just being impatient? Are the Christians here avoiding this?

kelly1 · 23-11-2007 11:26am

I'm busy with the day job. Takes up a fair bit of time this debating

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 11:29am

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm busy with the day job. Takes up a fair bit of time this debating

Sorry Noel, that wasn't aimed at you, I appreciate that you have contributed. Its the fact that nobody else has come in to back you up, or at least give their own view. Usually people are itching to correct each other if they have the means to but I may just be impatient.

robindch · 23-11-2007 11:30am

Perhaps you guys really do need us atheists around to keep the debate alive?

Why not remove the christian-only restriction and see what happens?

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 11:34am

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps you guys really do need us atheists around to keep the debate alive?

Why not remove the christian-only restriction and see what happens?

Because an atheists position does not really count in this. As an atheist doesn't believe in God, then they approach it from a completely different angle. Such an angle is not what I'm seeking. As a christian or as some believe a pseudo-christian myself, I want an explaination by christians, on how they can reconsile the doctrine of hellfire to the god they worship.

Run_to_da_hills · 23-11-2007 11:53am

JimiTime wrote: »

I want an explaination by christians, on how they can reconsile the doctrine of hellfire to the god they worship.

Well, a loving God destroyed all but eight souls in the Great Flood in the time of Noah. He also ordered that the children of Israel destroy every man, woman, and child of the Canaanites because of their perverse lifestyles, also destroyed the citys of Soddom and Gomorrah because of their perverted lifestyles, and will order this earth baptized with fire at the end of time. (I believe its in the near future)

Our loving God Jehovah is also a just and holy being.

Too many forget that if God allowed sinners into Heaven without benefit of Christ's redemption, then He would cease to be either just or holy.

Commission of sin brings about eternal guilt, a guilt that is not expunged by the passing of time. If you murder someone, it doesn't matter if you go the rest of your life without murdering again. You are still a murderer, because the act was eternal.

God loves the world, and based on this love offers a way out of eternal damnation by the sacrifice of His Son. But if you ignore this offer, God's policy of love toward you is changed to one of judgment upon your death. This is when the unbeliever or an unrepentant sinner comes face to face with the harsh reality of hell and theres no in-between.

People send themselves to hell, it is not Gods decision.

kelly1 · 23-11-2007 12:45pm

JimiTime wrote: »

But there is no atonement. Atonement is a purpose. The doctrine of fiery hell says there is no atonement or redemption, just sufering forever. So it has no other purpose put to have people suffer. If there was a chance of redemption, then you could probably argue that, but there isn't, so its only purpose is to have people suffer. You understand?

Atonement is only possible while we're alive on earth. Jesus paid the ransom to save us from eternal punishment. We have to atone for our sins by suffering (hence Purgatory). But after we die we can do absolutely nothing to atone for sin. The damned have through their own choice rejected God and the time for mercy is over to be replaced by justice. But who knows what Hell is really like. It's bound to be different for different people depending on how much they despised God in this life. At best Hell is the complete loss of God in which the soul realizes just how much it has lost and the "worm" of conscience knaws at it incessantly. I'm sure those who deliberately work against God will have far more to suffer.

JimiTime wrote: »

Firstly, there is a difference between immortality and eternal life. Eternal life can be given to you and can be conditional. Immortality means you cannot be destroyed. A huge difference. Also, are you saying that the doctrine of the immortal soul is based on this?

Yes I agree there is a massive difference. But what I am saying is that the soul is never destroyed. It's eternal life (joyful existence in union with God) or eternal punishment (life without God and all the consequences of this). I don't know what the doctrine is based on but eternal life/punishment seems a good place to start.

JimiTime wrote: »

Where does the concept of suffering tipping the scale come in?

God's justice must be satisfied. Sin produces a debt that can only be paid by suffering. What other than suffering could atone for sin? God doesn't overlook sin. Christ suffered on the cross in order to pay the eternal part of the incurred debt, we pay the temporal part.

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, how do you equate suffering 'forever' with no chance of redemption, so no purpose, with around 60 years of sin?

Because it's a personal choice. We have free will and God is just.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, burning forever in suffering and torture, does not seem just to me for lets say a 60 year life. Do you see that as just?

To my human eyes it appears very harsh. But I don't see things the way God does. I don't think anyone alive know just how offensive sin is to God. Even the smallest deliberate sin.

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, why did the mosaic law command the killing of people who commited certain sins? If suffering is what tipped the scale, why were they not tortured to death? And if suffering is in fact Gods method for atoning for sin, but some are judged unattonable (is that even a word), i.e. those who go to hell, then it is a pointless exercise because they'll never be atoned. So again, whats the point?

Suffering must be accepted by the sufferer before it has any atoning value.
Jesus willingly suffered and died for us and thereby atoned for all our sins.

God bless,
Noel.

robindch · 23-11-2007 1:12pm

JimiTime wrote:

I want an explaination by christians, on how they can reconsile the doctrine of hellfire to the god they worship.

That's a reasonable question and one I'd like to hear answered myself too. Past history would suggest you're onto a loser here, but the forum might yet surprise.

Anyhow, I was more wondering if this thread was quieter since you'd asked for half the regular posters to stay away. It's difficult to clap with one hand after all

Mods - please feel free to delete these two posts if you wish.

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 1:57pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Well, a loving God destroyed all but eight souls in the Great Flood in the time of Noah. He also ordered that the children of Israel destroy every man, woman, and child of the Canaanites because of their perverse lifestyles, also destroyed the citys of Soddom and Gomorrah because of their perverted lifestyles, and will order this earth baptized with fire at the end of time. (I believe its in the near future)

Indeed. I'm not taking issue with that. You do realise that there is a huge difference between executing the wicked, and keeping them alive just to have them suffer? I can completely understand him wiping out the wicked, thats not an issue for me. I see purpose in it. However, what is his purpose in keeping folk suffering 'forever', with no chance at all of atonement, redemption etc. It would be merely torture for the sake of torture would it not?

Our loving God Jehovah is also a just and holy being.

I completely agree that God is both Holy and Just, I'm just trying to reconsile the doctrine of fiery hell with this statement.

Too many forget that if God allowed sinners into Heaven without benefit of Christ's redemption, then He would cease to be either just or holy.

I agree. Thats not my point though. I agree that he has in place a consequence for wickedness and have no problem with that. My issue, is that it is to suffer endlessly. What is its purpose? I don't believe God does things without purpose. The doctrine of being tortured 'forever' with no hope of redemption has no purpose but to inflict suffering.

Commission of sin brings about eternal guilt, a guilt that is not expunged by the passing of time. If you murder someone, it doesn't matter if you go the rest of your life without murdering again. You are still a murderer, because the act was eternal.

So accepting Christ means that your sin is forgiven? However, if you don't, the consequence will be that you are tortured forever with no hope of redemption?

God loves the world, and based on this love offers a way out of eternal damnation by the sacrifice of His Son. But if you ignore this offer, God's policy of love toward you is changed to one of judgment upon your death. This is when the unbeliever comes face to face with the harsh reality of hell

As I said on a few occasions now, I agree that there is a consequence, and there should absolutely be a consequence. I'm just asking why did god make it that the consequence is to be tortured forever? What is the purpose of such a thing?

kelly1 · 23-11-2007 2:25pm

robindch wrote: »

That's a reasonable question and one I'd like to hear answered myself too. Past history would suggest you're onto a loser here, but the forum might yet surprise.

Anyhow, I was more wondering if this thread was quieter since you'd asked for half the regular posters to stay away. It's difficult to clap with one hand after all

Mods - please feel free to delete these two posts if you wish.

I think it basically boils down the fact that all goodness comes from God. It is only through God's grace that we are capable of doing any good. Something is only good in so far as it is judged good by God by He is the ultimate yard stick. One of the effects of original sin is that our moral intelligence is dimmed and only God's grace can sharpen it.

Life without God IS Hell. Only when we die will we fully realize how much sin offends God and how ugly it is. We will also realize how good God has been to us and how we have rejected the plan that God has for each of us.

If we realized in this life how much sin offends God, we would be overwhelmed with grief and remorse and it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to turn back to God after sinning and ask for forgiveness. At least that's my theory on it.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 2:26pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Atonement is only possible while we're alive on earth. Jesus paid the ransom to save us from eternal punishment. We have to atone for our sins by suffering (hence Purgatory). But after we die we can do absolutely nothing to atone for sin. The damned have through their own choice rejected God and the time for mercy is over to be replaced by justice.

Ok, but I'm talking about fiery hell. I'm not disputing that the choices people make are going to have consequences. My question is, why has god made it so that they will burn/suffer/be tortured/tormented 'forever'. What is the purpose of such a thing. They cannot be redeemed or atoned, so they are kept alive just to suffer.

But who knows what Hell is really like. It's bound to be different for different people depending on how much they despised God in this life. At best Hell is the complete loss of God in which the soul realizes just how much it has lost and the "worm" of conscience knaws at it incessantly. I'm sure those who deliberately work against God will have far more to suffer.

Ok, so you are saying that there is a different hell for different people? Where does this come from? Its not just a place of fiery torment? It has different degrees of suffering?

Yes I agree there is a massive difference. But what I am saying is that the soul is never destroyed. It's eternal life (joyful existence in union with God) or eternal punishment (life without God and all the consequences of this). I don't know what the doctrine is based on but eternal life/punishment seems a good place to start.

Ok, so you are not sure where the doctrine of the immortal soul comes from. fair enough. But you accept the doctrine that we are all immortal?

God's justice must be satisfied. Sin produces a debt that can only be paid by suffering. What other than suffering could atone for sin? God doesn't overlook sin. Christ suffered on the cross in order to pay the eternal part of the incurred debt, we pay the temporal part.

Ok, I don't get the suffering paying for sin bit. I understand that Adams sin required a perfect man to pay our debt. But that debt was paid in the life and death of Christ. I realise that Jesus 'suffered' a horrible death. However it was the death that was the sacrafice not the suffering. Or have you a reason to believe otherwise. When the israelites would give animal sacrifices, they wouldn't offer up the suffering of the animal. They'd offer up its life. Jesus then being the ultimate sacrifice, that atoned for Mans sin, done away with the need for the ritual sacrifices that preceeded him. As I said, I've never seen anything to suggest that suffering was a requirement for atoning for sin?

Because it's a personal choice. We have free will and God is just.

So you are saying that you accept it on the basis that you know God is just? People know that if they reject him that the consequence is an eternity of torture? Well, my question still stands. Why did god make it that the wicked would be tortured forever. If their sins can';t be atoned for anymore, then why not just destroy them? What is his purpose in keeping them alive just to suffer?

To my human eyes it appears very harsh. But I don't see things the way God does. I don't think anyone alive know just how offensive sin is to God. Even the smallest deliberate sin.

Fair enough. So you think it appears very harsh, but you accept it because its what you believe happens and who are you to question gods methods?

Suffering must be accepted by the sufferer before it has any atoning value.
Jesus willingly suffered and died for us and thereby atoned for all our sins.

God bless,
Noel.

As I said, atonement does not enter the equation of hell. I am talking about hell, those beyond atonement. So their suffering has no purpose.

kelly1 · 23-11-2007 2:54pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, but I'm talking about fiery hell. I'm not disputing that the choices people make are going to have consequences. My question is, why has god made it so that they will burn/suffer/be tortured/tormented 'forever'. What is the purpose of such a thing. They cannot be redeemed or atoned, so they are kept alive just to suffer.

I don't know what kind of fire is in Hell. I could be a metaphor for severe pain. Do you accept that sin is infinitely offensive to God because He is infintely Holy? If we reject Christ's atonement for our sin, we become subject to the full wrath of God as if Christ had never died for our sins. Does this make sense?

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so you are saying that there is a different hell for different people? Where does this come from? Its not just a place of fiery torment? It has different degrees of suffering?

I don't have biblical support for this idea but I don't believe the one-time fornicator would receive the same fate as Hitler.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so you are not sure where the doctrine of the immortal soul comes from. fair enough. But you accept the doctrine that we are all immortal?

Yes

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, I don't get the suffering paying for sin bit. I understand that Adams sin required a perfect man to pay our debt. But that debt was paid in the life and death of Christ. I realise that Jesus 'suffered' a horrible death. However it was the death that was the sacrafice not the suffering.

You can't be serious! If Christ had been quietly put to sleep with an injection, what kind of sacrifice would that be? It would be a blessed relief for many! Why did Christ suffer so terribly if something quick and less painful would suffice?

JimiTime wrote: »

So you are saying that you accept it on the basis that you know God is just? People know that if they reject him that the consequence is an eternity of torture? Well, my question still stands. Why did god make it that the wicked would be tortured forever. If their sins can';t be atoned for anymore, then why not just destroy them? What is his purpose in keeping them alive just to suffer?

I don't know for sure but I think it must be something to do with God's perfect justice.

JimiTime wrote: »

Fair enough. So you think it appears very harsh, but you accept it because its what you believe happens and who are you to question gods methods?

Something like that.

JimiTime wrote: »

As I said, atonement does not enter the equation of hell. I am talking about hell, those beyond atonement. So their suffering has no purpose.

I suppose it satisfies God's justice.

Have a look at this link and see if it answers any of your questions.

http://www.rosary-center.org/ll44n6.htm

I'll read it too.

God bless, Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 23-11-2007 2:59pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Indeed. I'm not taking issue with that. You do realise that there is a huge difference between executing the wicked, and keeping them alive just to have them suffer?

God never intended it that way, he is not willing that anyone should be danmed to eternity (Even the most wickedist murderer) but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter3vs9). The Majority of the world would not give up one minute of the day to say thanks to God for the gift of life, the food they eat, provisions etc, instead they curse and swear his name.

God offered a solution in the past (Old covinant), it didn't work so he sent his only son and as you can see in the world to-day it is not working either so that is why the world is falling apart to-day as foretold in scriptures. I believe everyone is given the oppertunity to reconcile with God at some time in their life, some accept this offer and are saved, others have accepted it and have again lost it, while others reject it totally and want to live their own lives without God.

JimiTime wrote: »

I can completely understand him wiping out the wicked, thats not an issue for me. I see purpose in it. However, what is his purpose in keeping folk suffering 'forever', with no chance at all of atonement, redemption etc. It would be merely torture for the sake of torture would it not?

Jesus spoke more about Hell than about Heaven, he has warned us that many are going there and that only just a few will escape from it. He warns us of its eternity so that we have no excuce, its that simple. You get the Catholic Church which supposingly is "Christs true church" preaching to approximitally 1/6th of the worlds population about another place that dose not exist that offers atonment and redemption after death, they will be in for a big shock.

JimiTime wrote: »

I completely agree that God is both Holy and Just, I'm just trying to reconsile the doctrine of fiery hell with this statement. I agree. Thats not my point though. I agree that he has in place a consequence for wickedness and have no problem with that. My issue, is that it is to suffer endlessly. What is its purpose? I don't believe God does things without purpose. The doctrine of being tortured 'forever' with no hope of redemption has no purpose but to inflict suffering.

The Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell for eternity because they are not covered by the blood of the sacrifice of Christ the only solution availible to escape this second death. It is a harsh reality, so harsh that the mainstream Church will do everything to try to cover it up. http://www.lookup.org/hell.htm

JimiTime wrote: »

So accepting Christ means that your sin is forgiven? However, if you don't, the consequence will be that you are tortured forever with no hope of redemption?

Absolutly, we are warned right throughout the new testiment about rejecting Christ and dying in our sins. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (2 THessalonians 1vs8), "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". (John 8vs24.).

JimiTime wrote: »

As I said on a few occasions now, I agree that there is a consequence, and there should absolutely be a consequence. I'm just asking why did god make it that the consequence is to be tortured forever? What is the purpose of such a thing?

God never intended it that way, Hell was originally ment for the Devil and his angels. Man has made his own choice to go there.

Gibbins123 · 23-11-2007 3:32pm

"It is said, God is Love. So, not God loves, rather God 'is' Love."

This means that god is not an external being. he is simply a representation of what is good and love.

"It is also said, God is merciful."

This means that you need to be able to forgive yourself for doing wrond and move on with your life.

"It is said that God made us all immortal."

This is made up so that we won't be afraid of dying.

"It is also said that God has made it so the consequence of wickedness is to burn 'forever' for no other purpose but to suffer."

This was made up hundreds of years ago, before there were enough laws made to cope with criminals. It was simply to scare people into being good people. To make them believe that there was a power that would ensure they would be punished for "wickedness"

kelly1 · 23-11-2007 6:13pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You get the Catholic Church which supposingly is "Christs true church" preaching to approximitally 1/6th of the worlds population about another place that dose not exist that offers atonment and redemption after death, they will be in for a big shock.

Why are you having another go at the CC?? Can you not help yourself? Those people in Purgatory are saved by the blood of Christ but are suffering the consequences of their sin. What's so hard about this to grasp?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is a harsh reality, so harsh that the mainstream Church will do everything to try to cover it up.

Which mainstream church are you referring to? And what are they trying to cover up? BTW, you're way too obsessed with the devil and Hell. Christ wants you to be at peace.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 23-11-2007 7:32pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Why are you having another go at the CC?? Can you not help yourself? Those people in Purgatory are saved by the blood of Christ but are suffering the consequences of their sin. What's so hard about this to grasp?

I am afraid not, If you are not saved in this life you are danmed to Hell for eternity. This is the harsh reality. You can only be saved by the blood of Christ through repentance in this life because you must be conscious of making that decision. When you are dead you are no longer concious, no one can repent of their sin and request salvation by the blood of Christ when they are dead. If this was the case the whole sacrifice of Christ on the cross would have been futile and the son of God would have died in vein.

kelly1 wrote: »

Which mainstream church are you referring to? And what are they trying to cover up? BTW, you're way too obsessed with the devil and Hell.

I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church of which I was brought up in. I already posted another thread touching on this subject. The reason I am so concerned about Hell is that it is a reality and most of mankind is going to end up there. It is not some man made doctrine like "purgatory" that suppresses the truth.

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 8:01pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't know what kind of fire is in Hell. I could be a metaphor for severe pain.

Interesting. So you think its may be metaphorical. Like the lake of fire being metaphorical for 'the second death of which there is no resurrection?

Do you accept that sin is infinitely offensive to God because He is infintely Holy?

can you explain this cocept to me a bit more clearly, its not really making much sense to me?

If we reject Christ's atonement for our sin, we become subject to the full wrath of God as if Christ had never died for our sins. Does this make sense?

yes that does indeed make sense. However, the question is, why tortured for eternity for no other purpose but to suffer? Why is this full wrath of God sufering for all eternity?

I don't have biblical support for this idea but I don't believe the one-time fornicator would receive the same fate as Hitler.

So God will have them in a red hot fire rather than a white hot one? All the fire metaphors used in the bible usually indicate total destruction. Gahenna, the lake of fire etc. Why does this one not destroy. Why all of a sudden, is fire used as a torture metaphor?

Yes (in answer to 'do you believe we are all immortal.)

Hmmmm. God made all humans and angels immortal. So he cannot destroy us. When did he create hell? Was there anyone there before Job? Are the casualties of the flood there? Are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah there?

You can't be serious! If Christ had been quietly put to sleep with an injection, what kind of sacrifice would that be? It would be a blessed relief for many! Why did Christ suffer so terribly if something quick and less painful would suffice?

Who put Christ to death? I don't think there was a choice in how he was put to death. Crucifiction was the method of the time. As was the lashings etc. You believe it was the suffering that atoned for our sin? Again, its all well and good saying 'you can't be serious', but you didn't give me an answer. Why do you believe that suffering was the key?

I don't know for sure but I think it must be something to do with God's perfect justice.

Ok, thats fair enough. Thats my main question though. Why is this the method and is there evidence of such a method being used by him in the past etc. If you don't know, you think its very harsh but still believe it, I would personally advise to look at it deeper. Why would you ignore something that you don't understand and actually think seems very harsh?

I suppose it satisfies God's justice.

Again, that is not really an answer without a reason as to why this is required for it to be necessary for justice.

Have a look at this link and see if it answers any of your questions.

http://www.rosary-center.org/ll44n6.htm

I'll read it too.

God bless, Noel.

I had a look. it doesn't really answer my question though.

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 8:18pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

God never intended it that way, he is not willing that anyone should be danmed to eternity (Even the most wickedist murderer) but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter3vs9). The Majority of the world would not give up one minute of the day to say thanks to God for the gift of life, the food they eat, provisions etc, instead they curse and swear his name.

He never intended it that way you say. So he created us all immortal, then had to think of a plan to keep the wicked from the blessed?

God offered a solution in the past (Old covinant), it didn't work so he sent his only son and as you can see in the world to-day it is not working either

What was the old covenant? and What is the new covenant? And what didn't work about them?

I believe everyone is given the oppertunity to reconcile with God at some time in their life, some accept this offer and are saved, others have accepted it and have again lost it, while others reject it totally and want to live their own lives without God.

Fair enough.

Jesus spoke more about Hell than about Heaven, he has warned us that many are going there and that only just a few will escape from it. He warns us of its eternity so that we have no excuce, its that simple.

Ok, but why is it an 'eternity' of suffering? is it that gods hands are tied by the fact that he made us all immortal? Or do you disagree with kelly one that we are all immortal?

You get the Catholic Church which supposingly is "Christs true church" preaching to approximitally 1/6th of the worlds population about another place that dose not exist that offers atonment and redemption after death, they will be in for a big shock.

Indeed, I don't believe in such a place myself, however, that is off topic. And actually, if we could keep this thread on topic it'd be great. i know yourself and kelly1 like to engage each other. But I'd appreciate if you kept this thread for the OP. Cheers.

The Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell for eternity because they are not covered by the blood of the sacrifice of Christ the only solution availible to escape this second death. It is a harsh reality, so harsh that the mainstream Church will do everything to try to cover it up. http://www.lookup.org/hell.htm

But its not a second death? Its a second life. All be it a horrible one, but its certainly not a death. The doctrine of hell means that the wicked gain everlasting life, as i said, just a horrible one. Or is the second death a metaphor for an everlasting life of suffering?

Absolutly, we are warned right throughout the new testiment about rejecting Christ and dying in our sins. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (2 THessalonians 1vs8), "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". (John 8vs24.).

Ok, but why did god make it so that the consequence is everlasting life being tortured?

God never intended it that way, Hell was originally ment for the Devil and his angels. Man has made his own choice to go there.

when did he create hell?

JimiTime · 23-11-2007 8:21pm

Guys I really appreciate the contribution you've made so far. I'm a little worried that you'll be distracted into debating purgatory etc again though. Could you, for the sake of this thread, keep purgatory etc out? i'd really appreciate it..
thanks.

Run_to_da_hills · 23-11-2007 10:22pm

JimiTime wrote: »

He never intended it that way you say. So he created us all immortal, then had to think of a plan to keep the wicked from the blessed? ?

He initially hoped that man would be immortal but Sin entered the world through adam and was inheriterd from that point, from then on man would die.

JimiTime wrote: »

What was the old covenant? and What is the new covenant? And what didn't work about them?

I phrased that completly wrong, God plan is perfect and flawless, it was mans part that didnt work. The New testiment is fulfillment of the old testiment, The root of the problem is mankind’s rejection of a righteous God and His Word both new and old testiments.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, but why is it an 'eternity' of suffering? is it that gods hands are tied by the fact that he made us all immortal? Or do you disagree with kelly one that we are all immortal?.

Our souls are made Immortal, ie our bodies die and our soul lives on and our eternal destiny is determined by the choice we make in this life only. God is Holy and cannot tolerate sin, he cannot force his way into anyones life, its up to the person to invite him in (Get saved), he has given us all a free will.

JimiTime wrote: »

But its not a second death? Its a second life. All be it a horrible one, but its certainly not a death. The doctrine of hell means that the wicked gain everlasting life, as i said, just a horrible one. Or is the second death a metaphor for an everlasting life of suffering?

The First death is the death of your physical body, the second death is the spiritual death of your soul, those that are saved and have endured to the end do not have to fear of the second death. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2vs11. Unbelievers are spiritually 'dead' and cannot believe the gospel or make any moves towards God unless they accept Gods plan of salvation.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, but why did god make it so that the consequence is everlasting life being tortured?

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS" (Matthew 25:41). God never intended for one single person to end up in hell. It is NOT God’s will that anyone should perish in their sins and go to hell. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE” (2nd Peter 3:9). It is NOT God’s fault if men and women are stubborn and unwilling to REPENT of their unbelief. Hell was NOT created for human beings but rather for Satan and his horde of demons. We are ALL without excuse for the wrong decisions we make in life. We CANNOT blame God.

JimiTime wrote: »

when did he create hell?

Neither does the Bible say when Hell was created. Whether or not it was created before Satan’s power was broken by Jesus, or at that time, or yet to be created is not clearly stated in scripture. I don’t see that it makes much difference. For it to have been created first would just show God’s ability to know things before they happen, in our concept of time. If it was created later, that just shows God’s sense of justice.

JimiTime · 24-11-2007 3:39am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

He initially hoped that man would be immortal but Sin entered the world through adam and was inheriterd from that point, from then on man would die.

Ok, you are obviously mixing up immortal, with everlasting life. Someone cannot loose immortality. They are either immortal or not. Everlasting life can be conditional, immortality means that you 'cannot' perish or die.

Our souls are made Immortal, ie our bodies die and our soul lives on and our eternal destiny is determined by the choice we make in this life only.

So god has set up a choice. Obey him, or you will burn and suffer for all eternity?

God is Holy and cannot tolerate sin, he cannot force his way into anyones life, its up to the person to invite him in (Get saved), he has given us all a free will.

yes indeed. This keeps on cropping up. As I said, i completely understand this. My problem is with the 'method' of punishment for the wicked. I.E. suffering forever. For no other purpose but to suffer. Is this Just to you?

The First death is the death of your physical body, the second death is the spiritual death of your soul, those that are saved and have endured to the end do not have to fear of the second death. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2vs11.

Ok, so John speaks symbolically about 'the lake of fire', but when he says what it means, 'which means the second death from which there is no resurection' He's talking symbolically again? he uses symbolism to explain symbolism?

Unbelievers are spiritually 'dead' and cannot believe the gospel or make any moves towards God unless they accept Gods plan of salvation.

So the wages of sin is 'spiritual' death, not actual death? So the wicked have everlasting life, for they are immortal?

"God never intended for one single person to end up in hell. It is NOT God’s will that anyone should perish in their sins and go to hell. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE” (2nd Peter 3:9). It is NOT God’s fault if men and women are stubborn and unwilling to REPENT of their unbelief. Hell was NOT created for human beings but rather for Satan and his horde of demons. We are ALL without excuse for the wrong decisions we make in life. We CANNOT blame God.

I agree, what I'm askin however, is 'why' did god decide that suffering 'forever' for no other purpose but to suffer was the consequence? Do you personally see it as just? As i said, i agree that people make their decisions and will pay the consequences, however it is god who made the method of punishment. Why did he make it suffering forever? Did he have no choice because he 'annot' destroy the wicked, because they are immortal? Remember, if the soul is immortal, God 'cannot, destroy it. If he 'can' destroy it, it is mortal.

Neither does the Bible say when Hell was created. Whether or not it was created before Satan’s power was broken by Jesus, or at that time, or yet to be created is not clearly stated in scripture. I don’t see that it makes much difference. For it to have been created first would just show God’s ability to know things before they happen, in our concept of time. If it was created later, that just shows God’s sense of justice.

Ok, so where did the wicked go before hell was created?

kelly1 · 24-11-2007 10:40am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I am afraid not, If you are not saved in this life you are danmed to Hell for eternity. This is the harsh reality. You can only be saved by the blood of Christ through repentance in this life because you must be conscious of making that decision. When you are dead you are no longer concious, no one can repent of their sin and request salvation by the blood of Christ when they are dead. If this was the case the whole sacrifice of Christ on the cross would have been futile and the son of God would have died in vein.

I agree with you! But the souls in Purgatory are already saved!!! I've said this several times now. I'm saying we don't get off scot-free when we sin. When God forgives us He forgives the guilt of our sin and so we don't spend eternity in Hell. But we still have to pay the debt of temporal punishment. Please see my last post in Jimi's purgatory thread.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church of which I was brought up in. I already posted another thread touching on this subject. The reason I am so concerned about Hell is that it is a reality and most of mankind is going to end up there. It is not some man made doctrine like "purgatory" that suppresses the truth.

The existence of Hell is a dogma of the Church so how can it cover it up! It's just a pity priests don't preach about it from the pulpit. In the 50s there was way to much emphasis on sin and damnation but it's swung too far the other way now.

God bless,
Noel.

PS Just saw your request to keep the P word out of the discussion - will do.

kelly1 · 24-11-2007 10:53am

Jimi,

can I turn this debate around for a while and ask you to prove that
the damned are annihilated?

I know you don't like the idea of eternal punishment and neither do I. The thing is that neither of us knows the full implications of sin - we're not God. We don't know what it means to reject the graces of our Creator and how offensive sin is to Him. We would probably die on the spot with shock if we knew.

But God does and all that God does is just. You have to trust that God knows best.

God bless,
Noel.

PS. I'll get back to you on these two questions:

Quote:
Do you accept that sin is infinitely offensive to God because He is infintely Holy?

- can you explain this cocept to me a bit more clearly, its not really making much sense to me?

- Why do you believe that suffering was the key?

Run_to_da_hills · 24-11-2007 2:25pm

JimiTime wrote: »

So god has set up a choice. Obey him, or you will burn and suffer for all eternity??

That is the bottom line.
God is a very jealous God

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the
LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God "Exodus 34:14".

He does not take it well when we start listening to Satan his enemy, inclining our ear and heart toward him. Just as you would become upset and jealous when your misses would start to show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with other people even so God becomes upset and jealous when we show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with Satan.

JimiTime wrote: »

yes indeed. This keeps on cropping up. As I said, i completely understand this. My problem is with the 'method' of punishment for the wicked. I.E. suffering forever. For no other purpose but to suffer. Is this Just to you?

Yes it is, we are warned again and again throughout scripture, God could have easily created an "in between" state and but he didnt.

This is the harsh reality, it shows the other side of a loving God that is Jealous, You choose to serve Satan in this life you will spend eternity tormented by Satan in the next. You choose to serve the lord in this life, you will spend eternity with the lord in the next.

“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the DAMNATION OF HELL?” (Matthew 23:33). “And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46).

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so John speaks symbolically about 'the lake of fire', but when he says what it means, 'which means the second death from which there is no resurection' He's talking symbolically again? he uses symbolism to explain symbolism??

I personally believe Hell is literally in the center of the earth, It is frightening because the Bible warns us about a place that burns with FIRE AND BRIMSTONE for ever.http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/hell_inside_the_earth.htm

So the wages of sin is 'spiritual' death, not actual death? So the wicked have everlasting life, for they are immortal?
All non believers are spiritually dead anyway, even in this life and will continue that way into the next. The wages of their unbelief (Sin) is death. (The saved person can also backslide into sin and lead themselves into to spitirual death in the next life.)

JimiTime wrote: »

I agree, what I'm askin however, is 'why' did god decide that suffering 'forever' for no other purpose but to suffer was the consequence? Do you personally see it as just? As i said, i agree that people make their decisions and will pay the consequences, however it is god who made the method of punishment. Why did he make it suffering forever? ?

I believe this is a wake up call to show just how serious he is.

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, so where did the wicked go before hell was created?

Maybe someone else can answer this one.

coffee_cake · 24-11-2007 2:29pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That is the bottom line.
God is a very jealous God

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the
LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God "Exodus 34:14".

He does not take it well when we start listening to Satan his enemy, inclining our ear and heart toward him. Just as you would become upset and jealous when your misses would start to show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with other people even so God becomes upset and jealous when we show signs of unfaithfulness and start flirting with Satan.

Yes? Would you find it acceptable to lock up your "missus" in a room and start torturing her if she did so?

Erk, just noticed the "christians only" - I'll edit the bottom half of this post but I think the first half should be ok
sorry

Run_to_da_hills · 24-11-2007 2:40pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I agree with you! But the souls in Purgatory are already saved!!! I've said this several times now. I'm saying we don't get off scot-free when we sin. When God forgives us He forgives the guilt of our sin and so we don't spend eternity in Hell. But we still have to pay the debt of temporal punishment. Please see my last post in Jimi's purgatory thread.

At the OPs request I would prefere not to get involved in a heated debate over this, maybe in another thread.

kelly1 wrote: »

The existence of Hell is a dogma of the Church so how can it cover it up! It's just a pity priests don't preach about it from the pulpit. In the 50s there was way to much emphasis on sin and damnation but it's swung too far the other way now.

We can discuss this on another thread that I started, "Fire and brim stone messages are being ignored in the Churches".

bluewolf wrote: »

Yes? Would you find it acceptable to lock up your "missus" in a room and start torturing her if she did so?

I didn't create my missus!:)

JimiTime · 24-11-2007 3:33pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Jimi,

can I turn this debate around for a while and ask you to prove that
the damned are annihilated?

I will give my beliefs and explainations on the matter eventually. However, for the time being I'd like it if we could stick to rationalising hell. Cheers. However, I will say this. This statement got me to look deeper into the doctrine, 'God is Love'.

I know you don't like the idea of eternal punishment and neither do I. The thing is that neither of us knows the full implications of sin - we're not God. We don't know what it means to reject the graces of our Creator and how offensive sin is to Him. We would probably die on the spot with shock if we knew.

But God does and all that God does is just. You have to trust that God knows best.

so this equates to, we can't rationalise it, but we must just accept it? Do you think it is wrong to question what you believe? Do you think its Satan trying to get into you when you start to doubt and question certain things? Do you feel disloyal in doubting and questioning these things?

PS. I'll get back to you on these two questions:

Quote:
Do you accept that sin is infinitely offensive to God because He is infintely Holy?

- can you explain this cocept to me a bit more clearly, its not really making much sense to me?

- Why do you believe that suffering was the key?

No problem. Also, if its that you are looking into this, could you also have a look at the following:

When was hell created? Where did the wicked go before it was created? I am assuming it was created after Job, as the book of Job tells us of Lucifer still being in Gods presence?

wolfsbane · 24-11-2007 5:16pm

Hi, JimiTime

Apologies for not engaging earlier, but I have been busy elsewhere.

JimiTime said:

My problem is with the 'method' of punishment for the wicked. I.E. suffering forever. For no other purpose but to suffer.

This is one example of your basic concern that I took from your posts.

Why would God choose conscious eternal punishment rather than annihilation as the appropriate response to man's sin? The answer is not explicity revealed, but we may well deduce it was either our natures (immortal therefore cannot be annihilated) or the magnitude of the offence (sin against an infinitely holy God) - or both. If we are not immortal, then it is the latter alone.

The reason Christians believe in conscious eternal punishment is not that we see clearly the reason for it, rather that we clearly see it taught by God in His word. Likewise, we do not see clearly the reason why God should save any sinners, but we clearly see it taught in His word.

For the other questions you raised with Noel, may I butt in with my take?

Do you think it is wrong to question what you believe? Do you think its Satan trying to get into you when you start to doubt and question certain things? Do you feel disloyal in doubting and questioning these things?

No, it is not necessarily wrong. It may be God's way of making you search the Scriptures for doctrine, rather than just heeding men. But it is sinful to question what those Scriptures make clear to you. When they are clear, we must believe them, even if we don't understand. Otherwise, Satan will indeed be at work.

When was hell created? Where did the wicked go before it was created? I am assuming it was created after Job, as the book of Job tells us of Lucifer still being in Gods presence?

Probably from just after the fall of the angels. The idea that Satan is in hell throughout time is not Biblical. He is to be cast there at the end of time. Of course, hell covers a few Hebrew/Greek words and their meanings.
Hades. Hades is a temporary prison for the wicked dead. Its occupants are after the Judgement cast into Gehenna.
Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Gehenna. The Lake of Fire is the eternal hell. Mark 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Tartarus. Perhaps the same as Hades. Some of the demons are already there:
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

There are also other terms that cover places connected with Satan:
The Abyss, the Deep or Bottomless Pit. As above. Satan's time there is only temporary.
Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Love, Hell and the nature of God.

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