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Airtight wall chases

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  • 20-04-2015 4:24pm
    #1
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭


    I am currently pricing a number of electrical contractors for wiring of my new build. None of them have any experience of making wall chases airtight on external wall though all interested in learning.

    My understanding is a plaster of bonding of sort is used to "parge" the chase around the socket and up the wall chase a few feet also.

    Can some link to the exact product they recommend? A premixed product would be my preference.

    Also when is this done? Are these done one at a time when socket boxes and conduit are being put in? or can they all be done at once before that is done. (my brain says they are done as the socket boxes are put in so to get a snug airtight seal).


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    #2
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    Anyone?


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    #3
    gman2k
    Registered Users Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭gman2k


    You will probably get a better response over in the Construction and Planning forum
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=876


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    #4
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    gman2k wrote: »
    You will probably get a better response over in the Construction and Planning forum
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=876

    I was thinking that in first place but said I'd try here first!

    Can a mod move please?


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    #5
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,748 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Moved as requested.

    tHB


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    #6
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Looking into this myself at moment. A friend used a proprietary product to plaster his internal walls, not the usual sand and cement. Not sure if he used it for wall chases but I'm considering it because it is advertised as a good performer in airtight tests.

    Others have used light coat of sand/cement in the chases. I've also considered using a thick silicon type paint-on substance which is used as a waterproofing/water stop product. Very hard to apply though so still considering other options.

    Can't specifically name products here so...if GYPsies did plastering, they'd sell something that was airtight. They mITE not be able to spell all that well so airtight mITE be slightly different. Failing all that PM me for more info.

    BTW - the product I'm alluding to is not premixed.


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    #7
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    I thought about a liquid sealer, had been looking into it for my floor and if it makes concrete water proof I can't see how it wouldn't make block work airtight.


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    #8
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    hexosan wrote: »
    I thought about a liquid sealer, had been looking into it for my floor and if it makes concrete water proof I can't see how it wouldn't make block work airtight.

    Can you PM name of product if you have one in mind. Will look it up.
    If it is a sort of paint it could possibly be sprayed into the chase and would be a very fast job.

    The water stop product I mentioned would be perfect but don't know if there is a spray gun capable of applying it. Would rather trowel on plaster than paint with that stuff.


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    #9
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Can you PM name of product if you have one in mind. Will look it up.
    If it is a sort of paint it could possibly be sprayed into the chase and would be a very fast job.

    The water stop product I mentioned would be perfect but don't know if there is a spray gun capable of applying it. Would rather trowel on plaster than paint with that stuff.


    Is that the black tar like stuff in the bags you showed me before.


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    #10
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    It is indeed (except grey)...'quare stuff' as one lad put it. But I doubt there's a paint brush developed yet to cope with it, or if there is then your arm wouldn't last long trying to spread it.


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    #11
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Looking for advice here also. I believe the 'pink skim' stuff works well for this job?


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    #12
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    Looking for advice here also. I believe the 'pink skim' stuff works well for this job?

    That's what fclauson used...but think it was the standard bonding stuff (AFAIK there are multiple different products within the companies range for different applications).
    Same crowd do a specific 'airtite' version I mentioned above.

    I think we'll soon be overthinking this. Sand & cement, 'pink stuff', paint on 'tar'...they'll all do the job I'm sure. I'm just going to try and pick the one that's easiest to apply and doesn't cost a fortune.


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    #13
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    That's what fclauson used...but think it was the standard bonding stuff (AFAIK there are multiple different products within the companies range for different applications).
    Same crowd do a specific 'airtite' version I mentioned above.

    I think we'll soon be overthinking this. Sand & cement, 'pink stuff', paint on 'tar'...they'll all do the job I'm sure. I'm just going to try and pick the one that's easiest to apply and doesn't cost a fortune.

    Yes I'm not sure how any of these can be applied into a narrow track in the wall? The box part might be a bit easier but still doesn't allow much space either.

    Airtight tape would be easy and for all that's used not that expensive?


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    #14
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    Yes I'm not sure how any of these can be applied into a narrow track in the wall? The box part might be a bit easier but still doesn't allow much space either.

    Airtight tape would be easy and for all that's used not that expensive?

    I have a tape that has a fleece coat on it (not a thick fleece or anything, more a fibrous surface) that can take plaster. It is to be used around window reveals from marine ply to internal block work. I'm not sure I believe that it will never crack so if I do use it around windows I'll be putting expanded metal over just in case.
    Personally I don't want the hassle of doing the same thing for every affected chase. Could be the perfect solution but what price for peace of mind.


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    #15
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    Knowledge is sparse on the ground where I am.

    Builders merchants look at me like i have two heads
    Electricians the same (but interested to learn)
    Architect about as useful as $%%£ flavoured lollypop

    Airtight tape in the chase wont work as the chase is too narrow from what I can see and I just cant see it getting the chase airtight. I have called my airtight supplier (partell) and they recommended pink bonding or tile grout to seel roughly a metre up from socket box/switch. Fill the chase with the bonding/plaster and push the conduit and box into it and scrap of the excess that comes back out then if required. They also recommended a product to seal around the junstion between the conduit and the socket box.


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    #16
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    893bet wrote: »
    Knowledge is sparse on the ground where I am.

    Builders merchants look at me like i have two heads
    Electricians the same (but interested to learn)
    Architect about as useful as $%%£ flavoured lollypop

    Don't get me started... the lack of knowledge in this industry is disgraceful.
    893bet wrote: »

    Airtight tape in the chase wont work as the chase is too narrow from what I can see and I just cant see it getting the chase airtight. I have called my airtight supplier (partell) and they recommended pink bonding or tile grout to seel roughly a metre up from socket box/switch. Fill the chase with the bonding/plaster and push the conduit and box into it and scrap of the excess that comes back out then if required. They also recommended a product to seal around the junstion between the conduit and the socket box.

    So you need to push the box and conduit in while the pink bonding is setting or can it be done when it has hardened?


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    #17
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    Don't get me started... the lack of knowledge in this industry is disgraceful

    ++++++++++++1 to that


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    #18
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    BarneyMc wrote: »

    So you need to push the box and conduit in while the pink bonding is setting or can it be done when it has hardened?

    My understanding is you need to push it in while its setting.


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    #19
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    hexosan wrote: »
    My understanding is you need to push it in while its setting.

    I 'plan' on filling the chases while the electrician is there but he'll be the one pushing the boxes into the chase. Last thing I want is to be responsible for getting all the boxes laser level and having see-sawing/out of alignment wall plates. The plan will work assuming he turns up when he is supposed to.

    Aren't the back-boxes to be screwed to the wall also? If they are, the ultimate effort would be to drill the holes first and insert the wall plugs. Then apply the pink stuff, push in the box and fix with the screws (which will be perfectly aligned through the existing holes in the box itself!!). A better seal than drill through afterwards.

    Easy as that..what could go wrong.


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    #20
    ht9zni1gs28crp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    Had a chat with my Electrician last night, he has seen a few attempts but mainly the plugging of the cable ducting to stop air travelling down. But correct me if im wrong but isn't most of the air coming in through the Block work itself?

    Ideally id like to think a bonding agent into the chases would work easiest, then drill and fix the socket into it?

    Would be nice to see some actual real world tests!


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    #21
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    My electrician had same idea of sealing conduit, but admitted that this was only effective if your conduit began it's journey from lets say the attic space which might be outside the airtight envelope.

    I suppose if you seal the conduit and chase at the top, seal where it enters the back box, and seal the box itself, even if air gets into the chase, where can it go.
    It' s hardly going to come out through the skim coat that covers the conduit.

    The mind boggles with this airtight stuff...
    Michael Jackson used a hermetically sealed tent (I read somewhere)...look what happened him.

    @miller_63, apparently you only need to seal the wall chases that are on external walls, and on internal walls which are 1m or less from external walls. Plus around the door frames too.
    Who came up with the 1m figure ..not a clue.


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    #22
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    My electrician has suggested using a waterproof concrete sealer painted into the chases he's convinced that if it seals concrete to water penetration well then air can't pass through it either.
    I wish I was as confident as him. In theory it makes sense, if only I could find some one who's tried it.


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    #23
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    hexosan wrote: »
    My electrician has suggested using a waterproof concrete sealer painted into the chases he's convinced that if it seals concrete to water penetration well then air can't pass through it either.
    I wish I was as confident as him. In theory it makes sense, if only I could find some one who's tried it.

    Can you reveal the sealer details so we can check out its properties, durability, etc.? I'm not sure I'd take the chance. Why not just use the 'pink stuff'?


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    #24
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    1. Can you reveal the sealer details so we can check out its properties, durability, etc.? I'm not sure I'd take the chance.

    2. Why not just use the 'pink stuff'?


    1. He just suggested didn't name any particular product. (That part was left for me to discover)

    2. Laziness.


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    #25
    ht9zni1gs28crp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    Its a bizarre situation allright, I have asked two of the leading Passive house experts in Ireland for their opinion or recommendation on products...not a peep out of them in response.

    So its really a whole trial and error jobby!


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    #26
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    miller_63 wrote: »
    Had a chat with my Electrician last night, he has seen a few attempts but mainly the plugging of the cable ducting to stop air travelling down. But correct me if im wrong but isn't most of the air coming in through the Block work itself?

    Ideally id like to think a bonding agent into the chases would work easiest, then drill and fix the socket into it?

    Would be nice to see some actual real world tests!

    I spoke to an expert in Airtightness ( the guy runs the Airtightness courses for metac and also owns a company that sells Airtightness tapes, membranes).

    His detail was pink plaster or tile grout in the chase and also to seal the conduit/socket junction.


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    #27
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    893bet wrote: »
    ... and also to seal the conduit/socket junction.

    ... with the pink plaster/tile grout?


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    #28
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    ... with the pink plaster/tile grout?

    No they have a generic type product for this that is used in various situations around the house. It is a mastic sealant that comes in a silicone type tube.


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    #29
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    893bet wrote: »
    No they have a generic type product for this that is used in various situations around the house. It is a mastic sealant that comes in a silicone type tube.

    How much would a tube of this mastic cost? What is the coverage like?
    I've an aversion to buying stuff that only comes in tubes, because it's usually tarted up silicon to begin with.
    Skeptical I know, but I have bought items from some airtightness experts at a premium and it turns out it can be bought online in a variety of guises for far less.


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    #30
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭893bet


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    How much would a tube of this mastic cost? What is the coverage like?
    I've an aversion to buying stuff that only comes in tubes, because it's usually tarted up silicon to begin with.
    Skeptical I know, but I have bought items from some airtightness experts at a premium and it turns out it can be bought online in a variety of guises for far less.

    No idea of coverage. They are same size as a tube of silicon anyway as I have 10 or so tube bought already for another job.

    Roughly around 11quid per including VAT I think.


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    #31
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    893bet wrote: »
    I have called my airtight supplier (partell) and they recommended pink bonding or tile grout to seel roughly a metre up from socket box/switch. Fill the chase with the bonding/plaster and push the conduit and box into it and scrap of the excess that comes back out then if required. They also recommended a product to seal around the junstion between the conduit and the socket box.

    In theory this plan sounds good but filling the chase and attempting to push the conduit into the chase deep enough so you wont have any problems with plaster cracking after will be difficult, time consuming and a very messy process.
    The chase unless you chase extra deep will not work with having bonding etc shoving it out.
    Why dont you cut the chases 3/8 inch wider and have room either side of the conduit to fill in whatever material you want. Remember to seal off the top of the conduits too.


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