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16 teachers suspended for cooperating with Jobbridge

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Comments

  • #52
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Ostrom wrote: »
    In large organisations, unions can negotiate employment terms with employers; solidarity between members prevents employers from amending employment terms, from unfair work loads, from unfair use of performance monitoring; unions can give support or legal advice during grievances. In countries with high unionisation rates (Denmark for example which is over 70%), unions negotiate for terms across entire sectors of employment - employers and government are involved, and the pacts are reviewed every few years.

    The thing is that for most people, they don't even personally need the union during the course of their employment, so they don't care about the fact that it will help them out and give financial and legal support. They will still benefit from the deals negotiated by the unions, even if they're not members. I've yet to see a non-union member refuse a pay rise or any other benefit negotiated for their profession.


  • #53
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    jank wrote: »
    Well then you can understand why the general public have such a low opinion on the teachers union.

    Yes because discussing money and a fair wage in Ireland is seen as rising above your station... Listen to IBEC saying that the minimum wage is too high, people getting too greedy etc ! A 35 hr week's work would get you €300. Of course IBEC have no qualms in paying 0 (and let the govt. pick up the tab through jobbridge) How dare anyone look for more money.

    In your own profession in IT it's an open market, you get what the market decides and if you don't like it move to a different country. In Ireland though, the fact is we need teachers. You can;t really advocate that a school close and move shop to poland or china! Hence you need to ensure that teachers continue to enter the profession. Ask any teacher now would they advise anyone to enter the profession.

    jank wrote: »
    They are willing to sacrifice the other stakeholders in Irish education to further purely their members aims, primarily through monetary gains.

    The last strike was on the JC reforms.. nothing to do with money. It was 'purely' on the principal of assessing students for state certification.
    Also I would contend that by ensuring a fair wage you are ensuring the security of the profession into the future.. and thus ensuring the education of children. It's a long term thing, not just about Jimmy's leaving cert this June, or Mrs. Smith having to take a day off work when it's a teacher that should be doing the babysitting.
    jank wrote: »
    The issues teachers are having today was seeded back in the boom when teachers unions negotiated huge salary increases with little regard for investment in infrastructure and programs never mind reforms.

    How do you fine 'huge' salary increases? If you'ld care to talk to any the extra time demanded of teachers is up (It's more than just 22hrs btw).
    It's all fine and dandy if you're starting salary is 30k , but consider that a large proportion of teachers (about 30% I'd take a conservative estimate) are on part time hours so you can do the maths to find the 'huge increase'. Would you become a teacher now on that pittance.. and live off part time wages for 10 odd years?
    This is what is meant by ensuring the status of the profession.


  • #54
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    jank wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be obvious? The NQT gains experience that puts them ahead in the pecking order,
    Pecking order for what? For a job that isn't there!
    jank wrote: »
    the school gain an extra motivated individual willing to help out in a classroom under the terms of the contract of the job offered....
    I think it's very naive to assume they are 'helping out', it implies they are just doing a wee bit of photocopying and making the tea. They are doing a full weeks work + all the associated work after school.

    jank wrote: »
    Yet it is clear there are NQT teachers willing to do job bridge schemes even if you disapprove.
    NQT's are being put in a compromising position by the principal/bom... are these NQT's members of a union? Obviously not
    Would the principal advocate that an NQT cross the picket on a strike day? Definitely not (we'l the ones with a moral compass wouldn't anyway)
    jank wrote: »
    The difference between you and me is that you have no problem telling a NQT that they cannot work under job bridge, I on the other hand will not dictate terms to another induvidual.
    The difference between yourself and myself is that I understand what precedent means and where it leads to. I think of the greater good in the long term.. where'as you can just hop to another company/country if things get bad, in our community it's not so easy to just declare a school unviable and close it... think of the children.. and other stakeholders. This is what happens when it's a me fein attitude. Teachers should stick together.

    jank wrote: »
    Aren't all teachers paid for by the state :). Seriously though if it were laid out like you said then why aren't ALL jobs like this? Internships exist in many professional professions.
    Doctors/nurses/guards???? Internship! I think you misunderstand the difference between any Profession and a Public Service profession. (Thinking about the stakeholders etc.)

    jank wrote: »
    The majority of teachers. Not all and certainly not all NQT which the unions (and their members) are more than happy to throw under a bus to protect current members pay.

    Nobody is throwing anybody under a bus. The Principals broke the rules, they got suspended (not expelled btw..). It's the mildest form of reprimand there is. What the union is doing is exposing the deceit and highlighting it. We all know it's deception and runs against the rules of Jobbridge/Teaching Council/Union membership.

    jank wrote: »
    I speak as a citizen. Am I not allowed an opinion on the matter?

    Opine away.

    jank wrote: »
    I work in the ICT sector.
    Again, you don;t work in the public service.. greater good.. think of the children and all that.
    jank wrote: »
    I would never get in the way of telling a fellow professional how they can work and under what conditions they should work under.
    And maybe that's the problem. It all sounds very noble using the term 'fellow professional' but how can your 'fellow professional' be a professional if they don't get paid?
    jank wrote: »
    Nor would I tell new ICT graduates that they cannot avail of internships if offered.

    That's why we get a union to do it on our behalf.


  • #55
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    katydid wrote: »
    All unions operate on the same principle; the protection of the terms and conditions of its members. This seems to be news to you.

    Protection of ones terms and conditions doesn't necessarily mean doing damage elsewhere. In this particular case, for instance, the defence of terms and conditions is also protecting the integrity of the profession, which can only but reflect positively on the system the professionals operate.

    Oh really? Come off it. Tell me how is the relationship between the trifecta of the Teachers, its Unions and their employer (the dept of education) going at the moment?


  • #56
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    katydid wrote: »
    They can try to negotiate their terms and conditions; good luck to them with that.

    Any NQT is free to enter a Job Bridge scheme, and any union member is free not to co-operate with them. That's the way it works.

    I fail to see, however, how standing up for the teaching profession, and trying to ensure it isn't downgraded by using yellowpack workers would have a negative impact on anyone, least of all those NQT's.

    What is wrong with negotiating their terms and conditions? Most employees in Ireland are in this position and they are not the enslaved downtrodden that many would have you believe. Sure wasn't the whole benchmarking process a case of bringing public sector workers wages up to private level wages, with the latter mostly non unionised? Having you cake and eating it.

    Those 'yellowpack' workers are as qualified as those on full time contracts. Strange choice of words I think personally.

    However, at least you are honest about its intention. Remember no one here (but me ironically) has argued the case of improved educational attainment for the actual children involved. Speaks volumes in m opinion.


  • #57
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    katydid wrote: »
    All unions are "self-serving" in that their purpose is to serve their members. What a strange question.

    You sound like you've come across this concept for the first time.

    Oh I am under no illusion of what unions stand for and what their goals are. In fact I think more an more of the Irish public are waking up to this fact, hence the increased negativity from the press and Irish taxpayer.

    I just find it amusing when some union rep is on radio or TV espousing the virtues of the teaching profession and how they really really really care for the children of Ireland when all they really care about is the fortnightly pay cheque. The horse has bolted on that one.
    katydid wrote: »
    In this case, serving the members is ALSO serving the system, because if the teaching profession is underminded, the system is undermined, and the users (the students) are the ones who will suffer.

    Sorry but 'the greater good argument' does not wash at all. If you and the unions want to sell us that argument then why do they stand in the way of meaningful curriculum reform and reform in assessing teachers who are more than useless. Everyone remembers their time in school and everyone remembers the teachers that inspired them, yet everyone also remembers the absolute wasters who were just counting down the clock to retirement. If the Unions and teachers really really cared for the students more would be done to weed out the wasters and reward the good teachers.

    Continuing to have bad teachers employed in a school affects the disadvantaged more as middle class parents can afford to send their kids to grinds. Talk to any teacher that does grinds and they will tell you that the same names of bad teachers will keep on cropping up, year after year. They are probably delighted as its extra income for them. So, sorry the idea the unions fighting it out against Jobbridge and NQT for some greater altruistic good is hogwash.


  • #58
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Gebgbegb wrote: »

    In your own profession in IT it's an open market, you get what the market decides and if you don't like it move to a different country. In Ireland though, the fact is we need teachers. You can;t really advocate that a school close and move shop to poland or china! Hence you need to ensure that teachers continue to enter the profession. Ask any teacher now would they advise anyone to enter the profession.

    That is an interesting point. Have a listen to this podcast.
    http://freakonomics.com/2014/11/27/is-americas-education-problem-really-just-a-teacher-problem-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/
    Changes are afoot in the realm of the teaching profession around the world. The current model may have worked 100+ years ago when it was devised but is it really up to task today?

    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    The last strike was on the JC reforms.. nothing to do with money. It was 'purely' on the principal of assessing students for state certification.
    Also I would contend that by ensuring a fair wage you are ensuring the security of the profession into the future.. and thus ensuring the education of children. It's a long term thing, not just about Jimmy's leaving cert this June, or Mrs. Smith having to take a day off work when it's a teacher that should be doing the babysitting.

    Of course its about money, its always about money. Regarding the fair wage, well this is one of the reasons why there are so few full time teaching jobs being offered now. Would you accept 5% less pay and pension for 5% more full time teachers?
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    How do you fine 'huge' salary increases? If you'ld care to talk to any the extra time demanded of teachers is up (It's more than just 22hrs btw).
    It's all fine and dandy if you're starting salary is 30k , but consider that a large proportion of teachers (about 30% I'd take a conservative estimate) are on part time hours so you can do the maths to find the 'huge increase'. Would you become a teacher now on that pittance.. and live off part time wages for 10 odd years?
    This is what is meant by ensuring the status of the profession.

    Again, these issues are a direct result of boom time Celtic tiger giveaways and bench-marking. We live in an era of new found fiscal restraint. By all means the unions can propose to the Irish public tax increases to fund new full time positions. I wonder how successful that would be?


  • #59
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Pecking order for what? For a job that isn't there!

    A job that will be there. The amount of jobs that exists in any profession does not remain static.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    I think it's very naive to assume they are 'helping out', it implies they are just doing a wee bit of photocopying and making the tea. They are doing a full weeks work + all the associated work after school.

    And if a NQT agrees with this, would you still have a problem with it?

    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    NQT's are being put in a compromising position by the principal/bom... are these NQT's members of a union? Obviously not
    Would the principal advocate that an NQT cross the picket on a strike day? Definitely not (we'l the ones with a moral compass wouldn't anyway)

    Again, you are trying to speak for eveyone when you cannot. You cannot make that call. I would certainly not say that ALL NQT would jump at a chance at Jobbridge.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    The difference between yourself and myself is that I understand what precedent means and where it leads to. I think of the greater good in the long term.. where'as you can just hop to another company/country if things get bad, in our community it's not so easy to just declare a school unviable and close it... think of the children.. and other stakeholders. This is what happens when it's a me fein attitude. Teachers should stick together.

    This greater good argument as I have already responded to before is a non argument. If you cannot argue against a specific point using the terms that surrounds that argument then by default you have lost.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
    In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is a logical device, but it is usually known under its fallacious form, in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question.

    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Doctors/nurses/guards???? Internship! I think you misunderstand the difference between any Profession and a Public Service profession. (Thinking about the stakeholders etc.)

    Interesting examples you choose as Doctors and Nurses do undergo internships in their career. Nurses have to spend a year working as a student nurse for much less than min wage. Doctors have to spend a year or two as a junior doctor in a hospital working god knows what hours. That is not even mentioning accountants, engineers, solicitors etc..
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Nobody is throwing anybody under a bus. The Principals broke the rules, they got suspended (not expelled btw..). It's the mildest form of reprimand there is. What the union is doing is exposing the deceit and highlighting it. We all know it's deception and runs against the rules of Jobbridge/Teaching Council/Union membership.

    NQT are being denied a chance of gaining valuable experience because of a union directive that they are not members of. Nevermind the last HR agreement that shafted NQT and protected current members.

    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Again, you don;t work in the public service.. greater good.. think of the children and all that.

    I actually do work in the PS by defacto, in education as well.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    And maybe that's the problem. It all sounds very noble using the term 'fellow professional' but how can your 'fellow professional' be a professional if they don't get paid?

    They do get paid, they just don't get paid as much as the unions would like. Subtle but major difference.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    That's why we get a union to do it on our behalf.

    You get the unions to restrict entry to a profession? Correct on that front.


  • #60
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    jank wrote: »
    Oh really? Come off it. Tell me how is the relationship between the trifecta of the Teachers, its Unions and their employer (the dept of education) going at the moment?

    It has been a core principal of the union for decades. Teachers are advocates not judges.
    Teacher assessment for state certification is (and always has been) of limits.
    its not a trifecta. the union is advocating on behalf of the teachers.
    At the moment the day to day teaching is going on as its always done... despite the deteriorating conditions which you have zero experience of.


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  • #61
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    jank wrote: »
    What is wrong with negotiating their terms and conditions? Most employees in Ireland are in this position and they are not the enslaved downtrodden that many would have you believe. Sure wasn't the whole benchmarking process a case of bringing public sector workers wages up to private level wages, with the latter mostly non unionised? Having you cake and eating it.

    Those 'yellowpack' workers are as qualified as those on full time contracts. Strange choice of words I think personally.

    However, at least you are honest about its intention. Remember no one here (but me ironically) has argued the case of improved educational attainment for the actual children involved. Speaks volumes in m opinion.

    Have you SERIOUSLY any evidence that any 'librarian' on jobbridge has negotiated their T&C?

    Strange choice of language also... equating professionalism with unpaid labour!!


  • #62
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,353 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    katydid wrote: »
    Well, no one forces you to join the union in the first place, but many workers actually think it's important to be in solidarity with their colleagues and, of course, to have recourse to union advice and financial support should they need it.
    I did. That's why I joined. The 'advice and support' is why I'll be leaving it. Off topic, I know, but more often than not, the unions aren't of much help to individual teachers.


  • #63
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    endacl wrote: »
    I did. That's why I joined. The 'advice and support' is why I'll be leaving it. Off topic, I know, but more often than not, the unions aren't of much help to individual teachers.

    From my personal experience as a school rep in a very anti-employee VEC, I would say the opposite. When I was involved, it was a constant battle with the employer for hours, conditions of work etc. for part time and CID teachers, most of which we won.


  • #64
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    jank wrote: »
    What is wrong with negotiating their terms and conditions? Most employees in Ireland are in this position and they are not the enslaved downtrodden that many would have you believe. Sure wasn't the whole benchmarking process a case of bringing public sector workers wages up to private level wages, with the latter mostly non unionised? Having you cake and eating it.

    Those 'yellowpack' workers are as qualified as those on full time contracts. Strange choice of words I think personally.

    However, at least you are honest about its intention. Remember no one here (but me ironically) has argued the case of improved educational attainment for the actual children involved. Speaks volumes in m opinion.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with negotiating terms and conditions; I just said "good luck to them". With a union you have some chance, without...forget it.

    Yes, the yellowpack workers are as qualified as those on full time contracts. But they are paid peanuts. Surely it's not rocket science to see that this devalues the full time workers and will be an impetus to lower their terms and conditions and pay?

    Improved educational attainment goes without saying. If you lower the standards, expectations and remuneration of teachers, you will have a demotivated workforce, which will attract only the desperate. You really think that's good for education?


  • #65
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,304 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    From what little I know, getting experience is hard, as many subs only get an hour here, an hour there.

    But if a teacher got in via Jobsbridge, would they get more hours as their time is "free" to the school?

    Someone mentioned that they'd be working alongside fully paid teachers. I'm sure there are fully paid teachers working alongside teachers who started at a better paid start rate than the newbies?


  • #66
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    the_syco wrote: »
    Someone mentioned that they'd be working alongside fully paid teachers. I'm sure there are fully paid teachers working alongside teachers who started at a better paid start rate than the newbies?

    Indeed. There are different levels of pay. But no teacher works for fifty euro a week.


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  • #67
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    the_syco wrote: »
    From what little I know, getting experience is hard, as many subs only get an hour here, an hour there.

    But if a teacher got in via Jobsbridge, would they get more hours as their time is "free" to the school?

    Someone mentioned that they'd be working alongside fully paid teachers. I'm sure there are fully paid teachers working alongside teachers who started at a better paid start rate than the newbies?

    Thats increments... once your on the scale you move up. Thats fair... every teacher accepts that.
    Say you work for jobbridge for one school year; are you entitled to jump to pt. 2 on the increment scale if you get a permanent (paid!) job in your second year?.

    ..... its telling the teaching council will recognise the teaching but the dept. payroll wont!!


  • #68
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,304 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Thats increments... once your on the scale you move up. Thats fair... every teacher accepts that.
    Ah. I was under the impression that some time ago, there was a massive drop in the starting salary, so what some teachers got one year was drastically lower than the previous year. My bad.


  • #69
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Thats increments... once your on the scale you move up. Thats fair... every teacher accepts that.
    Say you work for jobbridge for one school year; are you entitled to jump to pt. 2 on the increment scale if you get a permanent (paid!) job in your second year?.

    ..... its telling the teaching council will recognise the teaching but the dept. payroll wont!!

    There are also three different pay scales.


  • #70
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    the_syco wrote: »
    Ah. I was under the impression that some time ago, there was a massive drop in the starting salary, so what some teachers got one year was drastically lower than the previous year. My bad.

    No you were correct. That is the case.


  • #71
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    There are also three different pay scales.


    Actually there are 4 if you count the 'non-scale' which jobbridgers are on.

    Again: why does the teaching council recognise the hours worked for the purposes of registration... but yet the dept. payroll NOT recognise them for increment purposes?


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