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Kenny's motion of no-confidence

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    #32
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    I've just had another thought, btw; maybe those missing FFers from the Dáil aren't on holidays ? Maybe they're just staying at their "primary residence for the purposes of expenses" ?

    Seriously does the conversation always have to denigrate to woolly headed attacks on FF/Greens/Government?

    Can we keep it on topic and keep it real?


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    #33
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    I dont get the glasshouse reference here. Labour have a pretty good record in trust and integrity.


    Is this the same integrity where labour broke a coalition with FF and then without an mandate from the people form a coalition with FG. Considering how bad labour had done in local elections in 94.


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    #34
    scr123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭scr123


    I dismiss Gilmore and Kenny as economic illiterates. Bruton and Burton are what I call textbook economists, useless in the real world. I have listened and watched the reponse of Bruton and Burton to the reports yesterday and I feel acute embarrassment. Despite my FF leanings my country comes first but am now in a panic. The motion of confidence has been kicked to touch till next Tuesday but I am terrified the Greens will decide now is the time to go to the country. My only hope is the Greens will reflect on the brilliant performances of Cowen and Lenihan yesterday and this morning and they will do like I do, put the country first.
    When you line up Gilmore, Kenny, Bruton and Burton against Cowen and Lenihan its a complete mismatch. FF and the Greens must win the confidence motion or we will multiply our problems and a total collapse of the economy will happen


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    #35
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    freyners wrote: »
    and despite many warnings that the housing prices were overinflated and the bubble was about to burst, the genius of bertie ahern and cowen were still assuring us the economy was sound in 2008 and that it was still a buyers market.


    Precisely here is exactly the kind of advice that FF were giving out in 2008.

    Donie Cassidy - Leader of the Seanad

    10/04/2008
    "Now is the right time to buy. We have a duty to tell first-time house buyers, young couples with no previous experience, that there is unbelievable value in the marketplace today. It will not last forever. It is never the wrong time to do the right thing. I offer the House the benefit of my experience and my opinion which is all any Member can do. I will remind the House, perhaps in 12 or 18 months, when prices have again increased by 25% or 30%, that they were told this by the Leader of the House on this historic day, the tenth anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement."

    Then again look at the other advice that prominent members of FF were dishing out at that time.

    Bertie Ahern 19/09/2008
    "Bank of Ireland shares are € 3.80 today. Now if I meet you here next year, or the year after, do you seriously think Bank of Ireland shares will be € 3.80? I'd go out and buy Bank of Ireland shares . . . that's what I'd do."
    They are currently at €0.768 from the Irish Times website as of 13:22.

    Anyone who thinks that keeping members of that party in power is in the countries best interest have their heads firmly buried in the sand.


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    #36
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    No doubt Cowen and his party will squeeze through the confidence motion on Tuesday next as the various All Sorts have been bought to ensure support, at the cost to the country. Cowen being one of the chief architects of the failure of our economic system does not have the decency to resign after the worst financial crisis the state has endured. I know if it was me I would be ashamed and embarrassed or have the confidence to be the leader of the country after letting the nation down. It can only be down to sheer thick skin and ignorance then that he has not quit the job.


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    #37
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    I dont believe FF have country interest in their heart but i dont believe FG or labour do either. If you believe that then your in for a shock


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    #38
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    average_runner wrote: »
    I dont get the glasshouse reference here. Labour have a pretty good record in trust and integrity.


    Is this the same integrity where labour broke a coalition with FF and then without an mandate from the people form a coalition with FG. Considering how bad labour had done in local elections in 94.

    OK, but thats a long time ago in Irish politics. Pretty good I said....not impeccable.


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    #39
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    average_runner wrote: »
    I dont get the glasshouse reference here. Labour have a pretty good record in trust and integrity.


    Is this the same integrity where labour broke a coalition with FF and then without an mandate from the people form a coalition with FG. Considering how bad labour had done in local elections in 94.

    There were no locals in 1994.

    There was a mandate, as the numbers were there


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    #40
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    scr123 wrote: »
    I dismiss Gilmore and Kenny as economic illiterates. Bruton and Burton are what I call textbook economists, useless in the real world. I have listened and watched the reponse of Bruton and Burton to the reports yesterday and I feel acute embarrassment. Despite my FF leanings my country comes first but am now in a panic. The motion of confidence has been kicked to touch till next Tuesday but I am terrified the Greens will decide now is the time to go to the country. My only hope is the Greens will reflect on the brilliant performances of Cowen and Lenihan yesterday and this morning and they will do like I do, put the country first.
    When you line up Gilmore, Kenny, Bruton and Burton against Cowen and Lenihan its a complete mismatch. FF and the Greens must win the confidence motion or we will multiply our problems and a total collapse of the economy will happen

    You are a complete joke.

    Cowen is held culpable for the crisis, and a media soundbyte is enough to convince you. That is more thne just a FF leaning. It is an obsession. Cowen failed as a finance minister. His ludicriously high spending polices have dragged us down. The report even suggests that Cowen and Bertie thought that the housing tax yield was a sustainable thing, and that it was never going to end. If that is not incompetence, the I dont know what is.

    Face facts. There is no evidence that Kenny/Gilmore wouldnt be capable of working on a PFG together. There is no evidence that Kenny would be a useless Taoiseach, notwithstanding the fact that I am anything but convinced of his leadership capabilities.

    The Greens wont go anywhere. They are in line for a massacre at the next election. So I would advise you to knock off the faux concern.

    I am FF leaning, and have voted for them repeatedly. However, I am also smart enough to know when facts speak volumes. The facts suggest that the trust I placed in people like Cowen was totally misplaced. If you cant see that, and call others incompetent without any hard evidence of their incompetence, then you are a fool.


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    #41
    destroyer
    Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭destroyer


    scr123 wrote: »
    . My only hope is the Greens will reflect on the brilliant performances of Cowen and Lenihan yesterday and this morning and they will do like I do, put the country first.

    Wow!!! "brilliant" and "Cowen" in the same sentence.


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    #42
    destroyer
    Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭destroyer


    Het-Field wrote: »
    You are a complete joke.

    Cowen is held culpable for the crisis, and a media soundbyte is enough to convince you. That is more thne just a FF leaning. It is an obsession. Cowen failed as a finance minister. His ludicriously high spending polices have dragged us down. The report even suggests that Cowen and Bertie thought that the housing tax yield was a sustainable thing, and that it was never going to end. If that is not incompetence, the I dont know what is.

    Face facts. There is no evidence that Kenny/Gilmore wouldnt be capable of working on a PFG together. There is no evidence that Kenny would be a useless Taoiseach, notwithstanding the fact that I am anything but convinced of his leadership capabilities.

    The Greens wont go anywhere. They are in line for a massacre at the next election. So I would advise you to knock off the faux concern.

    I am FF leaning, and have voted for them repeatedly. However, I am also smart enough to know when facts speak volumes. The facts suggest that the trust I placed in people like Cowen was totally misplaced. If you cant see that, and call others incompetent without any hard evidence of their incompetence, then you are a fool.

    +1


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    #43
    Sulmac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    scr123 wrote: »
    I dismiss Gilmore and Kenny as economic illiterates. Bruton and Burton are what I call textbook economists, useless in the real world.multiply our problems and a total collapse of the economy will happen

    LOL!

    As opposed to Cowen, that world-class economist!


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    #44
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Just seen on news that the Government are tabling a motion of full confidence in Cowen. These people have some ****ing cheek. They are so desperate to cling on to government, they are willing to wash over the fact that he has been named as one of the key architects behind this mess we are in. If they won't call an election immediately they should be removed from the Dail by force.


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    #45
    Sulmac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    DarkJager wrote: »
    Just seen on news that the Government are tabling a motion of full confidence in Cowen. These people have some ****ing cheek.

    Fully agree here, the arrogance of Coughlan in the Dáil was disgraceful.


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    #46
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    DarkJager wrote: »
    Just seen on news that the Government are tabling a motion of full confidence in Cowen. These people have some ****ing cheek. They are so desperate to cling on to government, they are willing to wash over the fact that he has been named as one of the key architects behind this mess we are in. If they won't call an election immediately they should be removed from the Dail by force.

    I believe that this is normal procedure. In fact deputy Kenny actually asked them to do this this morning.

    Removing them by force in this manner is called a coup d'etat. The penalties for this would be quite severe (should it not suceed.)

    Whats the plan..would you hand back power when someone you liked got elected?


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    #47
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    I was very anti-pFG and anti-Labour up until recently and I still do believe that FF are best placed to get us out of this mess (even though I am anti-FF as well)

    However, I think that there is something much more important at stake here. IMO we can vote for FF or we can take the second best option (FG), but at least then we will be telling our elected officials that there are consequences of past performance.
    It is simply not good enough to accept responsibility for mistakes without accepting the punishment.

    While this may not be the best thing for the country today, it will at least give me hope that FF will have a serious internal look at itself and learn the lesson that they are there to serve the public and they answer to us.


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    #48
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Why the hell are some FF TDs on holiday already ?

    Their holidays don't start for a few months!

    And given the level of condoning of stroke-pulling and con-artists, one can't help but wonder whether FF gave some of them a holiday so that they weren't available this week, giving FF some scope for weaselling out of this vote.

    Those who took early holidays and who aren't obviously doing what they're paid for in this time of crisis should be named, shamed and evicted from the Dáil.

    Does anyone have a list of these dossers ?


    You may not agree with it but even FF politicians are allowed annual leave under various Working time acts and European directives.

    And again who will evict them from the dail? Are you another Coup d'Etat advocator? Will you evict them yourself with your list?

    Everyone in the Dail takes their leave in similar ways.


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    #49
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    average_runner wrote: »
    Also can you please be fair when talking about expenses, to mention other parties, as far as I know a few FG were involved and that majority of FG made the decision not to produce receipts for their expenses at the weekend?? So they get 16,000 euros no matter what!

    While I certainly object to that, and would like to see all justifiable expenses repaid only on production of a receipt, I am being 100% fair.

    There's a huge difference between claiming an agreed yearly average and pretending that they are living somewhere else in order to get more than they are entitled to.

    Anyway, this is drifting off-topic; the fact is that Cowen is and was completely incompetent and should face the music.....but as always party bull**** supercedes the good of the country and seeing justice done.

    Did anyone find a list of those FFers who are currently "on holidays", weeks before they are meant to be off ?

    Their Dáil holidays are already more than generous enough without them swanning off when they're supposed to be in work!


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    #50
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    While I certainly object to that, and would like to see all justifiable expenses repaid only on production of a receipt, I am being 100% fair.

    There's a huge difference between claiming an agreed yearly average and pretending that they are living somewhere else in order to get more than they are entitled to.

    Anyway, this is drifting off-topic; the fact is that Cowen is and was completely incompetent and should face the music.....but as always party bull**** supercedes the good of the country and seeing justice done.

    Did anyone find a list of those FFers who are currently "on holidays", weeks before they are meant to be off ?

    Their Dáil holidays are already more than generous enough without them swanning off when they're supposed to be in work!

    Liam, you can't really complain the thread is drifting off-topic and then keep talking about FF politicians' holidays.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #51
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    scr123 wrote: »
    The Opposition is full of Podge and Rodge characters. Anybody wants them to run the country has serious lack of nous

    And after 59 posts around here that is the best you can come up to counter yesterdays reports that firmly laid a lot of the blame for the mess at the door of your party's beloved leader and the governments that were ff led.
    BTW most of us having been saying that for the last 2 years, but of course you and other soldiers of dysentery have been shouting us down with BS.

    Where are all the ffers today that have been telling us it was all due to a global recession or Lehman's fault ?
    meditraitor wrote: »
    I couldnt agree more but FG need a stronger leader if they are to really make hay in the next General election, yourself and Liam Byrne make very valid points about FF but what I meant was how the hell are these guys still running the country. As a Labour man it dissapoints me to say I think it is down to a toothless opposition, and Enda is the main culprit being the leader of the biggest opposition party.

    Yeah he should be more like Happy Gilmore making rousing cutting speeches, but yet fail to admit that the public sector spending needs to be cut drastically.
    Mits wrote: »
    I don't think Mr. Kenny is up to the job. With the amount of ammunition the government has given them, they should have been kick out a long time ago.

    The Greens will never see power again, so I can't see them wanting an election.

    FFS as someone rightly pointed out already he doesn't have the numbers.
    Short of Kenny whacking ffers/greens and independents he isn't going to get the numbers.

    ffers are thick skinned and will hold on for dear life to their state cars, expenses, perks and want every last day for greater pension entitlements.

    The ffers that jumped ship over some local issue, (standup Sligo Leitrim jimmy devins, joe behan from Wicklow and jimmcdaid from Donegal), always vote for the taoiseach and party come the big votes.

    Then we have the greens who even though are not happy with situation, as evidenced last night by eamon "sanctimonious" ryan's display at press conference, will not jump ship because they know there is good chance they will lose every single seat.

    Also watch how some of the independents like healy rae, lowry, mcgrath, and even o'sullivan have voted for the government.

    So how can Kenny force them out unless some of them at last decide to put country first rather than party.


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    #52
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Liam, you can't really complain the thread is drifting off-topic and then keep talking about FF politicians' holidays.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    With respect, since the holidays are being cited by FF as the reason why the no-confidence vote (the subject of this thread) cannot be held, then I think it is relevant / on-topic ?

    The reason I want the list is because those individuals are the reason that this democratic requirement is delayed until next Tuesday.


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    #53
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    jmayo wrote: »
    ffers are thick skinned and will hold on for dear life to their state cars, expenses, perks and want every last day for greater pension entitlements.

    The usual cheap unsubstantiated whackery at FFers.
    The ffers that jumped ship over some local issue, (standup Sligo Leitrim jimmy devins, joe behan from Wicklow and jimmcdaid from Donegal), always vote for the taoiseach and party come the big votes.

    Nothing unusual there. Same would be true who-ever was in power.
    Can you give an example of a FGEr who voter against an FG government in a big issue.
    Then we have the greens who even though are not happy with situation, as evidenced last night by eamon "sanctimonious" ryan's display at press conference, will not jump ship because they know there is good chance they will lose every single seat.

    Yawn.
    Also watch how some of the independents like healy rae, lowry, mcgrath, and even o'sullivan have voted for the government.

    Yes ofcourse. They think it is in their constuents interest that they hold this powerful position. Thats usually the deal when independents support a government after the election. You back us on the big ones well give your constituency xyz.
    So how can Kenny force them out unless some of them at last decide to put country first rather than party.

    Unfortunately FG in opposition have shown us nothing to indicate that government party TDS actually believe FG would be beter in power. Im open to correction here?

    Sligeach Abu.


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    #54
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    scr123 wrote: »
    I dismiss Gilmore and Kenny as economic illiterates. Bruton and Burton are what I call textbook economists, useless in the real world. I have listened and watched the reponse of Bruton and Burton to the reports yesterday and I feel acute embarrassment. Despite my FF leanings my country comes first but am now in a panic. The motion of confidence has been kicked to touch till next Tuesday but I am terrified the Greens will decide now is the time to go to the country. My only hope is the Greens will reflect on the brilliant performances of Cowen and Lenihan yesterday and this morning and they will do like I do, put the country first.
    When you line up Gilmore, Kenny, Bruton and Burton against Cowen and Lenihan its a complete mismatch. FF and the Greens must win the confidence motion or we will multiply our problems and a total collapse of the economy will happen

    Oh dear God. :rolleyes:

    You have now be pulling the p***, otherwise I dispair of the mindset and intelligence of the ff supporter
    T runner wrote: »
    The usual cheap unsubstantiated whackery at FFers.

    Well if the ffers put the country first, had some modicum of ethics and morals they would refuse to do such things as give a vote of confidence as their leader to a man that has been the most inept disastrous minister of finance this country has ever had the misfortune of having.
    And that is before we bring in such lowlights such as giving votes of confidence to taoiseachs with no bank accounts yet wads of cash and vote opf confidence to ministers and legal professionals who lied to the second highest court in the land.
    T runner wrote: »
    Nothing unusual there. Same would be true who-ever was in power.
    Can you give an example of a FGEr who voter against an FG government in a big issue.

    There were never loads of FGers outside the party whip, due to fact they were playing to the locals in preference to government policy all in hope it would get them re-elected.
    So that point didn't happen where they were supposed out of the party and then back in it.

    T runner wrote: »
    Yawn.

    Yes ofcourse. They think it is in their constuents interest that they hold this powerful position. Thats usually the deal when independents support a government after the election. You back us on the big ones well give your constituency xyz.

    Unfortunately FG in opposition have shown us nothing to indicate that government party TDS actually believe FG would be beter in power. Im open to correction here?

    Sligeach Abu.

    Weren't you supposed to be objective non party connected or was it scr123 I was thinking about ?
    I now can see your reasoning behind all your support of NAMA, lenihan's disastrous bank bailouts etc.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tonights poll says it all about the moonies that are Fine Gael and how they think they are onto a great thing with the bufoon Kenny...


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    #56
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    T runner wrote: »
    Im open to correction here?

    You sure about that? Because i'd imagine if you were, then all the evidence of disasterous governance from FF would have 'corrected' your support for them


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    #57
    bored and fussy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭bored and fussy


    The name of some of the politicians on the golfing trip are Donie CassidyFF and Phil HoganFGi dont have the other names but i would like to see them posted here.


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    #58
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,429 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    bored and fussy wrote: »
    The name of some of the politicians on the golfing trip are Donie CassidyFF and Phil HoganFGi dont have the other names but i would like to see them posted here.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/golfrow-politicians-plane-in-near-miss-2214657.html

    Senator Donie Cassidy, TDs Phil Hogan and Noel Grealish and Leinster House worker John Flaherty were unaware of the danger until the plane attempted to land in Istanbul,


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    #59
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    kippy wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/golfrow-politicians-plane-in-near-miss-2214657.html

    That article refers to last weekend. Where were they during the week ?


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    #60
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,429 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That article refers to last weekend. Where were they during the week ?

    No idea to be honest. Someone wanted the names of the guys on the trip, thats all I provided.


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    #61
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Jesus, Kenny " I am going to be Miss-Elf", as a viable anything?
    Gawd help us poor sinners !

    Why no calls for criminal investigations of corruption re votes by politicians for bail-outs that involve personal and family interests???


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