Solidarity with Israelis

patrickk · 11-06-2010 10:16am

Id love to have solidarity with the Israelis but footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication makes me wonder do they think they can fool all the people all of the time.

http://info-wars.org/2010/06/10/video-israel-defense-force-video-of-siege-of-%E2%80%98mavi-marmara%E2%80%99-hoaxed/

alastair · 11-06-2010 10:39am

patrickk wrote: »

footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication

Oh no it doesn't. (and the moon landings aren't fake either).

Seriously people - shed the tinfoil hats. The activists on the Mavi Marmara themselves claim to have defended themselves against the IDF, and the al Jazeera footage taken before they were shut down by the IDF shows exactly the same action.

Scofflaw · 11-06-2010 10:39am

patrickk wrote: »

Id love to have solidarity with the Israelis but footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication makes me wonder do they think they can fool all the people all of the time.

http://info-wars.org/2010/06/10/video-israel-defense-force-video-of-siege-of-%E2%80%98mavi-marmara%E2%80%99-hoaxed/

That 'debunking' is based almost entirely on the fact you can't see the name of the ship - on an infra-red camera at night. Infowars fail, I'm afraid - no particular surprise, either.

cordially,
Scofflaw

patrickk · 11-06-2010 10:46am

Thats kind of strange how does infrared camera stop seeing black on white background .See this footage proves its all big lie by the Israelis .It doesnt matter about any other footage this proves a very serious thing a fabrication of news report to the world media .I think thats very very serious and someone has to roll for this .I dont like seeing my fellow men been made a fool of .So how can anyone have solidarity with the Israelis after this footage when its a blatant fabrication with actors.Its so funny its not funny its very very serious my friends

Fuhrer · 11-06-2010 10:47am

patrickk wrote: »

Thats kind of strange how does infrared camera stop seeing black on white background .See this footage proves its all big lie by the Israelis .It doesnt matter about any other footage this proves a very serious thing a fabrication of news report to the world media .I think thats very very serious and someone has to roll for this .I dont like seeing my fellow men been made a fool of .So how can anyone have solidarity with the Israelis after this footage when its a blatant fabrication with actors.Its so funny its not funny its very very serious my friends

Not sure you are up to date with your definition of proof, my friend.

Wibbs · 11-06-2010 10:52am

Depends entirely on the infra red camera.It depends on the paint used. By its very definition infra red(or UV) cameras show a completely different set of colour values to visible light. IE white roses are jet black in UV.

It's not a fake. The editing and timeline is "interesting" but fake? No.

fryup · 11-06-2010 11:35am

israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

wes · 11-06-2010 11:39am

fryup wrote: »

israel is the only democratic country in the middle east,

Factually incorrect. Both Lebanon and Iraq are democracies. Now they certainly have there issues, but then so does Israel.

fryup wrote: »

all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....

Again wrong, as mentioned earlier both Lebanon and Iraq, are democracies. Egypt is a secular dictatorship. Jordan is run by a King. Syria is again a secular dictatorship. I won't bother listing the rest.

Also, Israel has peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan. The Arab league also made the following peace offer:

Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

So not surrounded by people trying to wipe it off the map either.

fryup wrote: »

they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

Well, if there basis of being defensive is on the claims you made above, then being defensive make no sense, as the above claims are factually incorrect.

Fuhrer · 11-06-2010 11:40am

fryup wrote: »

israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

Syria is a Republic, Jordan is a monarchy that has a parliment, Lebanon is a parlimentary democracy, Egypt is a republic etc.

patrickk · 11-06-2010 11:42am

Wibbs wrote: »

Depends entirely on the infra red camera.It depends on the paint used. By its very definition infra red(or UV) cameras show a completely different set of colour values to visible light. IE white roses are jet black in UV.

It's not a fake. The editing and timeline is "interesting" but fake? No.

doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*

droidus · 11-06-2010 11:50am

Palestine is a democracy as well, in fact the Hamas representative on Prime Time last night said they wanted new elections as soon as possible, perhaps with the aim of forming a national unity party with Fatah.

alastair · 11-06-2010 12:08pm

patrickk wrote: »

doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*

:rolleyes: Sometimes I despair.

al Jazeera footage (pre-IDF censorship) which shows the same events (5.47 onwards): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

slimjimmc · 11-06-2010 5:41pm

patrickk wrote: »

doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*

Why would Israel bother fabricating their story using a different ship when they can easily do the same on the real ship which is currently moored in an Israeli dock?

Irlandese · 11-06-2010 10:03pm

slimjimmc wrote: »

Why would Israel bother fabricating their story using a different ship when they can easily do the same on the real ship which is currently moored in an Israeli dock?

Oh, sweet jesus, please don't start using logic with these fellows.
And to think this thread started off so well................

Irlandese · 12-06-2010 9:53am

Scofflaw wrote: »

So do the HSE.

sorry, sorry,
Scofflaw

Ok, so we are getting back into the old fixed positions, eh?
Would a little humour help?
I travel back to Scofflaw's awful attack on those nice over-paid HSE people:

What's black and brown and looks good on a HSE Social Worker?
A rottweiler.
What's the difference between them?
You can get your kid back from the rottweiler

JustinDee · 12-06-2010 1:55pm

droidus wrote: »

Palestine is a democracy as well, in fact the Hamas representative on Prime Time last night said they wanted new elections as soon as possible, perhaps with the aim of forming a national unity party with Fatah.

There is a reason that Hamas have no opposition party in Gaza to stand against and it is most certainly not democracy.

Irlandese · 12-06-2010 2:22pm

JustinDee wrote: »

There is a reason that Hamas have no opposition party in Gaza to stand against and it is most certainly not democracy.

You can sing it,brother.
The sight of indiscriminate shootings and staged executions of opponents by Hamas thugs is an unfortunate aspect of daily life for palestinians in Gaza. In fact, it is not too unlike the local-level terror imposed by Sinn Fein / IRA "activists" in catholic areas of Belfast and derry, in the not too distant past, although much bloodier and more openly, with impunity, in broad daylight.

dvpower · 12-06-2010 4:11pm

There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza?
Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:

Irlandese · 12-06-2010 5:43pm

dvpower wrote: »

There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza?
Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:

The thuggery and beatings and intimidation are hourly, but the staged group or individual executions are less frequent. Should we be so pleased that it is not daily?
Roll my whatever !

prinz · 12-06-2010 5:46pm

dvpower wrote: »

There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza? Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:

The disposing of all opposition in Gaza by Hamas is fairly well known. Plenty of videos online showing public summary executions etc. Just one of those facts that the media like to gloss over. It doesn't sell as many papers.

wes · 13-06-2010 9:54pm

prinz wrote: »

The disposing of all opposition in Gaza by Hamas is fairly well known. Plenty of videos online showing public summary executions etc. Just one of those facts that the media like to gloss over. It doesn't sell as many papers.

You also forget the fact that Fatah tried to remove Hamas first:

US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory

Now Hamas are scum, but in this instance, the other guy tried to get rid of them first, and at this point, this rather inconvenient fact is well know. One group tried to over throw the democratically elected government, and as such we now have the situation we have now. So, Fatah, and there US backers are to blame for the split, as they are the ones who tried to over thrown Hamas, and they lost in Gaza, and hence why there is a split. It should also be noted Fatah, are also responsible for the deaths of Hamas people in the West Bank.

BlaasForRafa · 13-06-2010 10:30pm

wes wrote: »

Now Hamas are scum

Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.

wes · 13-06-2010 11:29pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.

Its none of my business who the Palestinians choose for leaders. I respect democracy, unlike the US and Israel. The Palestinians made there choice, one which I think is a bad one, but then I think Israel choice of government isn't any better, but it isn't really my place to support the violent over throw of either.

Also, if Fatah were as progressive as you claim, they would have accepted the result, and not tried to over throw the Hamas, who won the elections fairly. Fatah would have been better to let Hamas try and run things, and then got there own act together and try to win the next election.

Secondly, Fatah has got feck all for there efforts. Israel is still stealing land, and generally making Palestinian lives pretty crappy. Hopefully, what there doing will pay dividends, but I think have seen that no matter what Palestinians do, Israel will keep up with the land theft.

Moomoo1 · 14-06-2010 8:56am

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Between 20 and 24 million from 1941 to 1945. And don't forget the toll inflicted in the Russian Civil War from 1918 to 1922. Estimated death toll here anywhere between 5 and 9 million, plus God knows how many more in WWI itself, forced collectivisation under Stalin etc. etc. These are figures you cant really take in.

a few million in WWI and up to 18 million in the repressions under Stalin.

27 million in WWII

The figures are quite easy to take in: after WWII on average every family in the country had someone dead or seriously injured

Some specialists think that the psychological scars from WWII are still visible in the Russian society today...

Moomoo1 · 14-06-2010 8:58am

fryup wrote: »

israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

if Israel are a democracy, then why don't they respect the (democratic) outcome of elections in Gaza?

Moomoo1 · 14-06-2010 9:00am

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.

could that have something to do with the blockade on Gaza that doesn't exist for the west bank?

reprazant · 14-06-2010 9:38am

Moomoo1 wrote: »

if Israel are a democracy, then why don't they respect the (democratic) outcome of elections in Gaza?

Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

dvpower · 14-06-2010 9:39am

Irlandese wrote: »

The thuggery and beatings and intimidation are hourly, but the staged group or individual executions are less frequent. Should we be so pleased that it is not daily?
Roll my whatever !

Well. I'm glad you backed away from this sillyness:

The sight of indiscriminate shootings and staged executions of opponents by Hamas thugs is an unfortunate aspect of daily life for palestinians in Gaza.

I wonder why you post stuff in the first place when you know it not to be true and have to retract it in your very next post.

btw, I've no love for Hamas. Their crimes are well understood. There's no need for embelishment.

Moomoo1 · 14-06-2010 9:46am

reprazant wrote: »

Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

how does a blockade denying food items to people of Gaza help bring about the downfall of Hamas?

droidus · 14-06-2010 10:38am

reprazant wrote: »

Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

And the winner of the last election in Israel does not even recognise the right of Palestinians to have a state.

Unlike Likud though, Hamas have repeatedly offered ceasefires and peace if Israel abides by International law and withdraws from the land that the whole world agrees they are illegally occupying.

irishconvert · 14-06-2010 10:41am

reprazant wrote: »

Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

So what? Sinn Féin's aim is a united Ireland which is the same thing, total destruction of the state of Northern Ireland. Do you think we should refuse to recognise Sinn Féin's mandate also?

BlaasForRafa · 14-06-2010 11:08am

irishconvert wrote: »

So what? Sinn Féin's aim is a united Ireland which is the same thing, total destruction of the state of Northern Ireland. Do you think we should refuse to recognise Sinn Féin's mandate also?

Hamas intent is not just the destruction of Israel but of its people as well. Unless you are saying that Sinn Fein wants to exterminate Unionists?

OhNoYouDidn't · 14-06-2010 11:22am

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hamas intent is not just the destruction of Israel but of its people as well. Unless you are saying that Sinn Fein wants to exterminate Unionists?

Source for that policy?

irishconvert · 14-06-2010 11:33am

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hamas intent is not just the destruction of Israel but of its people as well. Unless you are saying that Sinn Fein wants to exterminate Unionists?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Source for that policy?

Yes, please provide the source.

Irlandese · 14-06-2010 11:57am

dvpower wrote: »

Well. I'm glad you backed away from this sillyness:

I wonder why you post stuff in the first place when you know it not to be true and have to retract it in your very next post.

btw, I've no love for Hamas. Their crimes are well understood. There's no need for embelishment.

I retracted nothing, old son.
If you read it again maybe the sense of my hardly necessary clarification may become apparent. If not, try it ten times, slowly.

prinz · 14-06-2010 12:04pm

wes wrote: »

Its none of my business who the Palestinians choose for leaders. I respect democracy, unlike the US and Israel...

I wonder how much you'd respect democracy if some sort of BNP style party came to power in the West and started deporting, or worse, all opposition, people who get in the way etc.

Being democratically elected does not give anyone a mandate to do whatever the hell they like.

deravarra · 14-06-2010 12:11pm

prinz wrote: »

I wonder how much you'd respect democracy if some sort of BNP style party came to power in the West and started deporting, or worse, all opposition, people who get in the way etc.

Being democratically elected does not give anyone a mandate to do whatever the hell they like.

Seems to work quite well for the Israeli government ... or can you even see that?

wes · 14-06-2010 12:13pm

prinz wrote: »

I wonder how much you'd respect democracy if some sort of BNP style party came to power in the West and started deporting, or worse, all opposition, people who get in the way etc.

Being democratically elected does not give anyone a mandate to do whatever the hell they like.

Fatah are the ones who tried to over throw Hamas first, and everything that Hamas did to them was in response with that. You are not comparing like with like at all, and are deliberately ignoring how the split came about, which was due to a US backed coup attempt by Fatah. This is the situation I am talking about, and the situation you describe is irrelevant.

OhNoYouDidn't · 14-06-2010 12:15pm

prinz wrote: »

Being democratically elected does not give anyone a mandate to do whatever the hell they like.

Rather bizarrely, you are using this approach as a defence of Israel!

prinz · 14-06-2010 12:16pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Rather bizarrely, you are using this approach as a defence of Israel!

No, I'm not.

dvpower · 14-06-2010 12:16pm

Irlandese wrote: »

I retracted nothing, old son.
If you read it again maybe the sense of my hardly necessary clarification may become apparent. If not, try it ten times, slowly.

Post #169
The sight of indiscriminate shootings and staged executions of opponents by Hamas thugs is an unfortunate aspect of daily life for palestinians in Gaza

Post #171
The thuggery and beatings and intimidation are hourly, but the staged group or individual executions are less frequent. Should we be so pleased that it is not daily?

That's not a retraction?

Perhaps you meant that the fear or executions or the memory of them was an unfortunate aspect of daily life?

prinz · 14-06-2010 12:22pm

wes wrote: »

This is the situation I am talking about, and the situation you describe is irrelevant.

No it's very relevant. Over coming an attempted coup and being democratically elected again does not bestow the right to liquidate all opponents.

UltimateMale · 14-06-2010 12:31pm

prinz wrote: »

I wonder how much you'd respect democracy if some sort of BNP style party came to power in the West and started deporting, or worse, all opposition, people who get in the way etc.

Being democratically elected does not give anyone a mandate to do whatever the hell they like.

Nice one prinz, you've just described the fascist ideology of zionism to a T.

prinz · 14-06-2010 12:35pm

UltimateMale wrote: »

Nice one prinz, you've just described the fascist ideology of zionism to a T.

I know, for a good reason.

deravarra · 14-06-2010 12:36pm

prinz wrote: »

I know, for a good reason.

and yet you stand full square behind the israelis?

prinz · 14-06-2010 12:37pm

deravarra wrote: »

and yet you stand full square behind the israelis?

I don't. Nice try though.

deravarra · 14-06-2010 12:47pm

Moomoo1 wrote: »

how does a blockade denying food items to people of Gaza help bring about the downfall of Hamas?

Starve them all - they wont have any supporters left alive ...

wes · 14-06-2010 12:47pm

prinz wrote: »

No it's very relevant. Over coming an attempted coup and being democratically elected again does not bestow the right to liquidate all opponents.

Of course it doesn't, but much of the killing was done due to the attempted coup, and everything that came after isn't all that different than what Fatah have done to Hamas in the West Bank. There is a context of a ongoing conflict between the 2 sides, which you are doing your best to ignore.

simonj · 14-06-2010 9:23pm

djsomers wrote: »

Has anyone ever stopped to think what all this hatred towards Israel is doing to the innocent people of Israel who have to live with this terror? I am completely against the illegal blockade of Gaza and the Israeli government's handling of affairs. But there is too much anti-Jew anti-Muslim anti-everthing going around. People should take a step back and see things for how they really are. I am sure there are a lot of anxoius Jews in Israel right now who the world should be showing solidarity with. Has anyone got any opinions or suggestions as to how things should change to get things in order instead of this blind fear mongering and hate?

Well, get the settlers out of Palestinian towns and areas for starters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXSFsJV084&feature=channel

In Hebron, an Apartheit state exists, for the sake of about 1000 extreme, Kahanist settlers, families in Hebron are treated like dirt, shop keepers must clear the street when Israeli settlers come through, Palestinians are not allowed to drive cars in the HebA area - the area they have been cleared from to allow for Kahanist settlers.

JDL/JTF/Kahanists wont even serve in the Israeli Army, at least one of their American leaders is baned from entering israel, and JDL, Kahane Hai etc are banned in Israel - yet they still settle.

The saddest thing is, the people of Hebron - the Palestinians that is - regard themselves as lucky as they do not live in Gaza.

Zionism is apartheid, the land grabs in Jeruselem and Hebron and the East bank must stop, brutalisation of Palestinians must stop - if there is no justice there is no peace.

As for Gaza, an occupied or besieged people have a right to resist - as the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did.

By stopping extremists in the areas mentioned, perhaps then Hamas will start to loose ground in Gaza, but with the current situation, especialy with people like Lieberman who tacitly support JDL policies of ethnic cleansing by displacement, the situation is intractable.

The Israeli response to the missiles fired by Hamas is utterly disproportionate, and we rarely hear about the settlers who kill Palestinians

Solidarity with Israelis

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