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is fear of what may happen a good enough reason to believe

  • 17-02-2008 4:30pm
    #1
    timetogetfit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭


    If someone was brought up a christian but was an agnostic and leant slightly toward the atheist side would the fear of not going to heaven due to not totally believing be a good enough reason to believe or would in fact this fear prove that you do believe in some capacity and save you?


Comments

  • #2
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    timetogetfit wrote: »
    If someone was brought up a christian but was an agnostic and leant slightly toward the atheist side would the fear of not going to heaven due to not totally believing be a good enough reason to believe or would in fact this fear prove that you do believe in some capacity and save you?

    It's a good start.

    Psalm 111:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:

    Proverbs 1:7
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge:

    Proverbs 9:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

    Isaiah 33:6
    And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.


  • #3
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    It's a good start.

    Psalm 111:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:

    Proverbs 1:7
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge:

    Proverbs 9:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

    Isaiah 33:6
    And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

    So, the god who threatens the worst punishment should be the rational choice for undecided people to start believing in?


    Fear is not the beginning of wisdom. That is a utterly ridiculous statement to make.


  • #4
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Akrasia wrote: »
    So, the god who threatens the worst punishment should be the rational choice for undecided people to start believing in?


    Fear is not the beginning of wisdom. That is a utterly ridiculous statement to make.

    Ok then what is the begining of wisdom?


  • #5
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    It's a good start.

    Psalm 111:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:

    Proverbs 1:7
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge:

    Proverbs 9:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

    Isaiah 33:6
    And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

    Loving merciful deity or totalitarian megalomaniac dictator, tough call that one

    Why fear what you don't believe in? If you are leaning towards atheism why fear god? It would be like fearing the tooth fairy while saying she doesn't exist


  • #6
    timetogetfit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭timetogetfit


    Why fear what you don't believe in? If you are leaning towards atheism why fear god? It would be like fearing the tooth fairy while saying she doesn't exist

    The consequenses according to christian beliefs is a good motivator to be afraid and I said I was agnostic with a slight inclination towards athiestism also there are no consequences of not believeing in the tooth fairy


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  • #7
    toiletduck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Ok then what is the begining of wisdom?

    Admitting that you're ignorant, I would think?
    orestes wrote:
    Why fear what you don't believe in? If you are leaning towards atheism why fear god? It would be like fearing the tooth fairy while saying she doesn't exist

    Have to agree.


  • #8
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Ok then what is the begining of wisdom?

    I'm not sure if something like wisdom can have a beginning.

    I would say though that an irrational fear of the unknown is pretty unwise and could lead to a neurosis of some kind.


  • #9
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    what is the begining of wisdom?
    In a sentence, that absolute knowledge does not exist.


  • #10
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    timetogetfit wrote: »
    If someone was brought up a christian but was an agnostic and leant slightly toward the atheist side would the fear of not going to heaven due to not totally believing be a good enough reason to believe or would in fact this fear prove that you do believe in some capacity and save you?

    You can't scare yourself into believing, you will be only deluding yourself if deep down you don't believe but live your life as if you do just because you are afraid of the consequences. You either do believe or you don't.


  • #11
    timetogetfit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭timetogetfit


    You can't scare yourself into believing, you will be only deluding yourself if deep down you don't believe but live your life as if you do just because you are afraid of the consequences. You either do believe or you don't.

    You either believe or you dont.No thats not true you can be undecided, isnt that what agnostics are?


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  • #12
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    timetogetfit wrote: »
    You either believe or you dont.No thats not true you can be undecided, isnt that what agnostics are?

    Agnostics don't believe in God. They leave the possibility for some god to exist but you couldn't say they are believers.


  • #13
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    Agnostics don't believe in God. They leave the possibility for some god to exist but you couldn't say they are believers.

    Thats not true for all agnostics, there are plenty of agnostic theists


  • #14
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    eoin5 wrote: »
    Thats not true for all agnostics, there are plenty of agnostic theists

    Thats an interesting one alright. I don't think its really agnosticism though, it seems to be run of the mill religious belief but without the self delusion of knowledge, this makes it 100 times better.


  • #15
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Ok then what is the begining of wisdom?
    experience, doubt, an awareness of how little we know, and a desire to find the truth.
    its absolutely certainly not fear. Fear is probably one of the biggest barriers to wisdom. Afraid to challenge dogma or cultural norms, choosing beliefs because of a fear of punishment? If that was a positive thing, gallileo would never have questioned the nature of the universe, and we would still think the sun revolved around the earth.


  • #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Fear is not a good enough reason to believe anything. But fear is a valid reason to examine evidence and see if there are good reasons to believe something or not. The worse the possible consequences of ignoring something, the better the reasons for assessing whether the risk is real or not.

    For example, the consequences of not believing in the tooth fairy, and subsequently finding you are wrong are unlikely to be serious. So, even if the tooth fairy does exist, you have no fear of what will happen to you if you are wrong about the tooth fairy, so there is little incentive to examine the evidence for the tooth fairy's existence.

    The consequences of not believing that HIV is transmitted via unprotected sex, and subsequently finding you are wrong are serious. Therefore the fear of dying of AIDS should motivate people to expend more energy on discovering the truth about HIV transmission than on determining whether the tooth fairy exists.

    The consequences of rejecting the Gospel message, and subsequently finding you are wrong are very serious indeed. Therefore fear is a valid factor in motivating someone to examine the truth claims of the Christian Gospel.


  • #17
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    PDN wrote: »
    Fear is not a good enough reason to believe anything. But fear is a valid reason to examine evidence and see if there are good reasons to believe something or not. The worse the possible consequences of ignoring something, the better the reasons for assessing whether the risk is real or not.

    For example, the consequences of not believing in the tooth fairy, and subsequently finding you are wrong are unlikely to be serious. So, even if the tooth fairy does exist, you have no fear of what will happen to you if you are wrong about the tooth fairy, so there is little incentive to examine the evidence for the tooth fairy's existence.

    The consequences of not believing that HIV is transmitted via unprotected sex, and subsequently finding you are wrong are serious. Therefore the fear of dying of AIDS should motivate people to expend more energy on discovering the truth about HIV transmission than on determining whether the tooth fairy exists.

    The consequences of rejecting the Gospel message, and subsequently finding you are wrong are very serious indeed. Therefore fear is a valid factor in motivating someone to examine the truth claims of the Christian Gospel.
    Pascals wager?

    It doesn't work in a world where there are many different competing religions. By worshipping one god because you think it's better to worship and be wrong (limited negative consequences) than to not worship and be wrong(risk of eternal damnation), you could very easily choose the wrong god and be making the real god angry.


  • #18
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Pascals wager?

    It doesn't work in a world where there are many different competing religions. By worshipping one god because you think it's better to worship and be wrong (limited negative consequences) than to not worship and be wrong(risk of eternal damnation), you could very easily choose the wrong god and be making the real god angry.

    That's one reason why fear alone is not a good basis on which to make any choice, religious or otherwise.

    Different religions prescribe different consequences for those who reject their concept God, and the truth claims of some religions are more believable than others. Therefore we may have a greater incentive to examine the claims of one religion than another.


  • #19
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    I don't understand the fear of God. I love God. I don't know how I could fear him.


  • #20
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Húrin wrote: »
    I don't understand the fear of God. I love God. I don't know how I could fear him.

    I believe that the phrase "the fear of the Lord" is used in Scripture to denote reverence for God and a desire not to displease him.

    For example, I love my wife, so I try to avoid doing things that cause her grief or pain. Now I'm not afraid of her in the sense that she might smite me (I'm a big guy and my wife is very petite), but there are certain actions that I would avoid out of a fear of hurting, grieving or displeasing her.


  • #21
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Once again PDN, you bring a sense of calm and wisdom to the ever increasing sillyness and snidery of these boards. Thanks for staying and fighting the good fight, I've tended just to browse these days, rather than risk insanity:)


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  • #22
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    The consequences of not believing that HIV is transmitted via unprotected sex, and subsequently finding you are wrong are serious. Therefore the fear of dying of AIDS should motivate people to expend more energy on discovering the truth about HIV transmission than on determining whether the tooth fairy exists.

    The consequences of rejecting the Gospel message, and subsequently finding you are wrong are very serious indeed. Therefore fear is a valid factor in motivating someone to examine the truth claims of the Christian Gospel.
    The consequences of unprotected sex with a HIV infected person are pretty irrefutable; the same cannot be said of "rejecting the Gospel message".


  • #23
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The consequences of unprotected sex with a HIV infected person are pretty irrefutable; the same cannot be said of "rejecting the Gospel message".

    That is certainly true (well, at least if you insert the word 'possible' between The and consequences). It is, however, a classic example in how to miss the point.

    My point, of course, is that the more serious the alleged consequences, the more incentive we have to investigate whether the evidence for the alleged consequences is refutable or credible.


  • #24
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    It is, however, a classic example in how to miss the point.
    No, I don't think I am missing the point. There is a high probability that unprotected sex with a HIV-positive individual will result in infection. However, the nature of the afterlife (should it exist) is unknown and, as such, probabilistic estimates on the consequences of rejecting the Gospel are meaningless.
    PDN wrote: »
    My point, of course, is that the more serious the alleged consequences, the more incentive we have to investigate whether the evidence for the alleged consequences is refutable or credible.
    Had you used the word "probable" rather than "alleged", then I would agree.


  • #25
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Thanks PDN, that makes sense.

    To the OP: I don't think that's a good enough reason to believe. Christianity is not the only religion that says you're going to hell if you don't follow it. If fear is your motive, then why not choose Islam, or Hinduism? You must have some other way of choosing!


  • #26
    Xhristy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Xhristy


    This post has been deleted.


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