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12 V Lithium Ion Battery- where to find!?

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  • 02-10-2008 11:14am
    #1
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭


    Hey there,

    I am looking to source a few 12volt Lithium Ion batteries.
    They will be used to power car stereos and small speakers - but not for use within a car (dont ask:p)

    Looking for something small, light and hopefully long lasting. Im not really sure where I should be looking? Maplins dont have anything.

    Any recommendations would be much appreciated.

    Thanks


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    #2
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,925 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Why don't you get one of those power stations? They typically have a regular lead acid battery (any reason you want a lithium ion battery?) in them and can easily be mains charged. I have mine trickle charged via a solar panel :D

    I got myself one in Maplins a few months ago for €33 and it has a built in compressor, jump leads, a 12v socket and a light. Hard to beat that for value for money!


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    #3
    Max_Damage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭Max_Damage


    I have a car radio in my shed that is powered by a 12V mains adaptor, I posted the details about it here a while back:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055267195


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    #4
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Ecocabbie


    hey unkel,

    Many thanks for your reply and suggestion!

    The reason we want a lithium ion battery is because we need something small and more importantly light.

    Im not hugely knowledgable on the subject and researching this for my colleague but would you have by any chance a link to what you use/what you suggest?

    many thanks, and welcome any further input


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    #5
    PaddyFagan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭PaddyFagan


    I think you might have a hard time locating 12V Lithium Ion batterys, almost all current applications for these (phones, laptops, etc) run at much lower voltages 3-6V typically, so I'm not convinced that you'll find a whole lot of 12V ones around.

    (Also there are some serious limitations on current Lithium Ion technology as well - likely poor performance in hot environments, which would cut the applications for 12V versions down.)

    Sorry,

    Paddy

    PS A quick Google seems to hold this out, but Radionics seem to have a range of NiCad 12V rechargeable units:
    http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&binCount=8&Ne=4294957972&Ntt=12v+battery&Ntk=I18NAll&Nr=AND%28avl%3aie%2csearchDiscon_ie%3aN%29&Ntx=mode%2bmatchallpartial&N=4294956002&Nty=1

    - Just watch the low Amp Hour (AH) rating on these mean that you may not be able to run the radio for that long between charges.....


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    #6
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Ecocabbie


    many thanks paddy, thats very useful indeed. thanks


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    #7
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Ecocabbie


    Can anyone tell me that if we were to use several small 2-4V lithium ion batteries totalling to 12 V would this be suitable for this application? And what type of life expectancy would we expect from a car stereo?


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    #8
    2 Espressi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭2 Espressi


    There are a lot of 11.1V LiPo batteries used in RC models,

    http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFunction=Category&CategoryID=99206010

    You'll need a charger capable of handling LiPo batteries to juice 'em up though.


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    #9
    PaddyFagan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭PaddyFagan


    Ecocabbie wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me that if we were to use several small 2-4V lithium ion batteries totalling to 12 V would this be suitable for this application? And what type of life expectancy would we expect from a car stereo?

    Yes you can connect them together - connect the positive output of one battery to the negative of the next, should give you the required voltage.

    BUT then it gets complicated, first you'll need to know how much current your radio draws (this probably won't be written down, but you can calculate it), then you'll need to work out how long the battery can supply this - for the links I included earlier they have supplied this, e.g. 7AH, which means that the battery should (full charged and under ideal conditions) run a radio which draws 1 Amp for 7 hours.

    The calculations aren't hard, but I haven't done this kind of thing in 10 years, so I can't give you all the details from memory. If you post all the details you have for the radio and batteries you're thinking off I can dust off my memory!

    Paddy


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    #10
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Ecocabbie


    Thanks Paddy,I will get these details!! Cheers!


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    #11
    D_murph
    Registered Users Posts: 773 ✭✭✭D_murph


    2 Espressi wrote: »
    There are a lot of 11.1V LiPo batteries used in RC models,

    http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFunction=Category&CategoryID=99206010

    You'll need a charger capable of handling LiPo batteries to juice 'em up though.


    X2^

    even though the stated voltage is 11.1 Volts, when fully charged they do reach over 12V and even 13V and should work well i would think.

    you will need a 3 cell lipo pack to reach this voltage so make sure you specify the voltages or you might get the wrong one.

    i have a few 2 cell lipos that i use here for various modelling purposes and even though some were charged recently and others were over a year ago, they have pretty much the same voltage on my multimeter :) (just checked ;)) so they hold a charge a lot better than regular nicad or nimh rechargables you would usually buy around.

    if theres a model shop near you that sells RC aeroplanes, you should be able to get these batteries and a suitable charger or if you shop online also.

    they are very light too which may suit you.

    get ones with the most mAh possible. this means more capacity so they will last longer on a charge. it might cost a bit more but it should help.

    one more thing. its important not to leave these battery packs get below 3V/ cell or it will not be possible to recharge them again :(. i dunno why but its true apparently. a lot of electric model aeroplanes have an electronic speed controller which monitors the battery voltage and will trip out the power when it gets close to 3V per cell for this reason so be careful.


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    #12
    Plug
    Registered Users Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭Plug


    2 Espressi wrote: »
    There are a lot of 11.1V LiPo batteries used in RC models,

    http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFunction=Category&CategoryID=99206010

    You'll need a charger capable of handling LiPo batteries to juice 'em up though.
    Better off getting them in www.towerhobbies.com, alot cheaper. Thats were I get my stuff.


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    #13
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    I buy lots of lithuim battteries in dublin

    I do model aircrafts

    The shop is http://www.greenhobbymodel.com/

    and they are in Dublin Harolds cross tel 01 4928776 open on saterday as well to 5 pm closed lunch and open to 6pm on the week days

    voltages available are from 7.2 to more than 50 volts
    capassity are from 50mha to 20,000mha


    They also sell NiMH batteries which are usualy much cheaper and should be light enough for stereo

    They sell al types of chargers for charging lithuim bateries rapidly at one hour recharges and some even 30 minute recharges
    Nimh rapid chargers are often 40 minutes or less if not totaly empty

    Nickel canduim are tricky to find anymore as they are toxic to enviorement so EU banned them
    unkel wrote:

    Why don't you get one of those power stations? They typically have a regular lead acid battery (any reason you want a lithium ion battery?) in them and can easily be mains charged. I have mine trickle charged via a solar panel

    I got myself one in Maplins a few months ago for €33 and it has a built in compressor, jump leads, a 12v socket and a light. Hard to beat that for value for money!]



    The chances that in Ireland you have enough solar power to recharge that power station is remote to unlikely unless you invested a some few hundred euros in mega large panels

    I have a thread on boards the solar subject to recharge a car battery and the results are similar

    The Maplins power station you have has 17Amp hour battery Sealed Lead recombining acid type reffered to as AGB acid glass mat

    If your solar panel is one of those tiny things a few watts which cost like 20 euros it would be like one little kiddy piddling in a big swimming pool trying to turn the pool yellow coloured

    this post shows all the info for 100 amp camper car battery
    pricibles are similar for 17 amp power station

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57189656&postcount=10

    taken from this overal post
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055368551&highlight=solar
    derry wrote:
    one square meter of solar sun power in the tropics give you 1000 watts mid day
    here in Ireland best case 300 watts and if its cloudy 200 watts per square meter

    Effiency for solar panels of say ~10% makes that ~25 watts for a large one sguare meter panel or 2.5 amps at midday in Ireland on semi cloudy day

    The day lasts in August say 10 hours with average power output at say 0.6 amps or ~80 watts( average is from high 2.5 amps to low zero amps at dawn and dusk )

    Nothing at night so thats 40 watts average a day or 0.3 amps per hour devided over all the day and night

    The smallest cheapest E10 euro electric trickle charger from Aldi Lidl will give 0.6 amps per hour 24 amps a day and barely keep a small car 40 amp battery going in top up (or power station with 17 amp battery)

    The bigger E25 euro electric trickle charger from Aldi Lidl will give 3 amps per hour 24 amps a day and barely keep a typical camper 100 amp battery going in if you demand a few lights at night time from the camper

    So this micky mouse solar thing which is probably 1/10 of a square meter is going to be at best 0.06 amps per hour 24 hours a day and can maybe keep a ~5 amp battery topped up

    It would not even probably keep a small motor bike battery of 10 AMP s alive never mind a typical camper battery of 100 amps

    good gimmick for maybe keeping you mobile phone topped up but not a camper even in the tropics

    For 14 euros you can get several 2 euro emergency battery power packs for mobile phones and be more sure to have power for your mobile phone than this gadjet

    Big expensive solar panels used every day often take ten years to pay back in the Irish climate

    Used on Irish camper vans for holidays would be the most expensive power ever invented in this planet

    A good petrol generator ~1000 watts at ~1000 euro would be cheaper than solar power even with petrol factored in

    Cheapo crapo generators from Aldi or Lidl of about 400 euros will also be cheaper but forget spare parts when they break down so only useful for the occasional camper weekender

    ....snip....


    In the yaughting circles which use these a lot in good climates they figure on 60 watts will barely keep a average 0.5 amp load GPS and a 40 amp battery going

    15 watts would struggle to keep the 40 amp battery topped up without any load on it

    Thats from good climates

    In Ireland yaughts usually opt for wind power and get 3 amps (~40 watts ) 24 hours a day day on windy days

    The cheapest solultion is every few hours turn on the engine and recharge the batteries for 20 minutes but jam gas pedal to do 150RPM as the alternators charges often doesn't charge below 1000 RPM

    It will take all summer of weekend camping to use 14 euro of fuel on tick over

    Derry


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    #14
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    Plug wrote: »
    Better off getting them in www.towerhobbies.com, alot cheaper. Thats were I get my stuff.

    Tower wont export lithuim cells from the USA

    Lithuim cells pose a fire hazard and require extra expensive HAZMAT
    ( hazardous materials ) shipping which is often not allowed to go aircraft so limetd to ships trains trucks

    example of lithuim batteries on fire in laptops
    big fires

    http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=lap+top+fire&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

    http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=lap+top+fire&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#q=lap%20top%20fire&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&start=20



    Also ordering from other countries the risk is the postage costs could be 3 times larger than normal posting cost and make £100 item increase in costs to £200 due to having to pay for expensive HAZMAT shipping rates

    Also lithuim batteries when they catch fire are something else very difficult to stop the fire as lithuim burns in a way similar to magnesuim very hot vedry intense and requires special chemical fire extinguishers to stop the burning as water has little effect


    Derry


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    #15
    Plug
    Registered Users Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭Plug


    derry wrote: »
    Tower wont export lithuim cells from the USA

    mmmm, yes they will actually:P
    Have a look yourself.


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    #16
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,925 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Thanks for the post and links, derry. I'll probably look into those in more detail at some stage.
    derry wrote: »
    The chances that in Ireland you have enough solar power to recharge that power station is remote to unlikely

    Kinda depends on what you use the power station for, doesn't it? ;)

    I use mine regularly (every few weeks at most) to pump up swimming pools, tyres (cars, bikes, buggies) and the occasional jump starting a car (once a month or so at most)

    My solar panel is rated 5W. I've seen it generate 5W but only in ideal circumstances. Summer months only, full direct sunlight and only between noon and 4PM or so. And at that it won't give a steady 5W really. At a rough guess one should be happy to get 1W on average during daylight hours over the whole year

    My powerstation hasn't been plugged into the mains for months and it currently reads >14V. If that's not fully charged, I don't know what is :D

    That said, I'm the first to note that my usage of the yoke has been over the last few (summer) months. I doubt if similar use in winter will be compensated by the solar panel. But then, I won't be pumping up any swimming pools either :D


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    #17
    coolwings
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 3,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭coolwings


    Ecocabbie wrote: »
    ... I am looking to source a few 12volt Lithium Ion batteries ... to power car stereos and small speakers ...
    Not Lithium Ion ... it does not have enough power for that.
    Lithium Ion is designed for low power applications, like watch, camera etc.
    Driving speakers needs much more power.
    You need either Lithium Poly or Nimh batteries for that.
    Ecocabbie wrote: »
    ... Looking for something small, light and hopefully long lasting. ...
    LiPoly is the lightest ,but it's fragile, as someone said in a post above. Overcharge, or overdischarge/overuse once and it's dead. But it is the lightest.
    Nimh is sturdier, but still quite lightweight. More compact than LiPoly, and takes abuse without being terminally damaged. You should consider Nimh too for your use.

    Ecocabbie wrote: »
    ... Im not really sure where I should be looking? Maplins dont have anything. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. ...
    Green Hobby & Model, Dublin know their stuff.

    Here is a page I did describing when I changed boat sonar equipment designed to work off 12 Volt lead acid (car) batteries to smaller lighter alternative battery types
    Sonar in float tube - battery alternatives. I think that this would work for you.


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    #18
    Ecocabbie
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Ecocabbie


    sorry hadnt checked back on this thread for a while. many thanks to Derry and everyone else for the input.. very interesting and helpful indeed. I will post what we try and go with a let you know how it goes!

    cheers


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