Fined on Dublin Bus!

Victor · 27-10-2005 12:13am

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

I know these are small amounts of money but if you're a regular bus user it really does add up.

If you are that regular a bus customer, then you would ahve a ticket.

I'd also like to know why dublin bus need to raise ticket prices again (they are applying for raise), considering they raised it 9% not too long ago and a similar sum the year before that.

But only something like an average of 4% was approved. Some fares didn't change.

85c	90c	5.9%
125c	130c	4.0%
145c	150c	3.4%
165c	175c	6.1%

They might consider letting go a few of their dead-wood bus drivers if they need the money.

You mean fewer people to drive busses?

dRNk SAnTA · 27-10-2005 5:11pm

Victor wrote:

If you are that regular a bus customer, then you would ahve a ticket.

Well whats 'regular'. Unless one gets the bus 10 times a week tickets don't offer anything in the way of savings. Tickets are far too expensive, and I can get student tickets! I think for a lot of people (medium bus user),tickets don't offer a lot of value over fares thus encouraging them to use public transport. They just save a people who already have to use the bus a bit of hassle. So tickets don't solve my problem. Anyway, tickets are another issue altogether.

Victor wrote:

You mean fewer people to drive busses?

No actually, obviously thats not what I meant. It would be nice to see them look for a little more productivity from the employees before they go looking for a price hike.

John R · 27-10-2005 5:47pm

Ive always wondered how the machines know which stage/stop they're at, not that they're always right but they've been within a couple stops, give or take, the couple times I've checked.[/QUOTE]

They are manually advanced by the driver.

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

If this were always true then I would find the fares a little more fare. There may be cases where this is true but I can show you that on the 46a 1 stop = 1 stage.

If you look at http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=46a

and scroll down to the bottom of the page you can see the list of stages. The part of the route I know best is 36-40. Booterstown Avenue to Merville Rd (across dual carraige way from Bondi). According to dublin bus, these 5 consecutive stops are 5 stages. This tiny journey will set you back 1.30. Obviously a 90c fare will get you a rediculously short distance. I know these are small amounts of money but if you're a regular bus user it really does add up.

First of all that is not where Merville Road is. There are 6 stops stage 36-40 and it is an overall journey of 4 stages. The distances are slightly shorter than some areas but it is not an exact distance measurement and there are plenty of other stages on the network that are just as short.

If paying the extra 45c bothers you that much then walk to the next stop where it will only be 3 stages, or you could just walk all the way and get some exercise while you save money.

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

I'd also like to know why dublin bus need to raise ticket prices again (they are applying for raise), considering they raised it 9% not too long ago and a similar sum the year before that.

You may not have heard but apparently the cost of the liquid that is put in the fuel tank of buses has increased by 25% in the last 12 months.

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

They might consider letting go a few of their dead-wood bus drivers if they need the money.

Less bus drivers means less buses on the road, so you wouldn't mind cuts in services then?

cdebru · 27-10-2005 6:56pm

SickCert wrote:

Another side is the inspectors hear the same excuses PER bus check and can be a good judge of genuine cases.

Actually the more timid respectable you are the more likely you are to be fined
the rougher you look especially if you look like you might give the inspector a kick in the bollix at any moment the less likely you are to be fined
Also inspectors tend to check the easier bus routes so they will more likely be seen on the howth road than the malahide road for example
Rare to check a 27 and almost never when it is in Coolock

SickCert wrote:

These boys are not evil

Well not all of them anyway

SickCert wrote:

but check about 500 tickets a day and have seen most situations before.

They do in their arse check 500 tickets there is no real revenue protection Unit anymore the inspectors that used to do that are the ones that you see standing at stops along the road and in around town
Inspectors have a limit of 150 inspectors in the whole city that includes inspectors in the training school and those based in depots Doing rosters and controlling the radio
Split it over a couple of shifts and 7 depots those that are sick on holidays etc etc it means that there are **** all left to check tickets the Inspectors keep it that way so as to gaurantee themselves regular overtime

HelterSkelter · 28-10-2005 2:27pm

Victor wrote:

And fuel and wear and tear?

Hmm, about 4 mile round trip works out about 60c for petrol.

€2.80 parking + 60c petrol = €3.40, I save 60c by driving and not getting the bus!

HelterSkelter · 28-10-2005 2:31pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

Well whats 'regular'. Unless one gets the bus 10 times a week tickets don't offer anything in the way of savings. Tickets are far too expensive, and I can get student tickets! I think for a lot of people (medium bus user),tickets don't offer a lot of value over fares thus encouraging them to use public transport. They just save a people who already have to use the bus a bit of hassle. So tickets don't solve my problem. Anyway, tickets are another issue altogether.

No actually, obviously thats not what I meant. It would be nice to see them look for a little more productivity from the employees before they go looking for a price hike.

And how can they manage that, get the driver to drive two buses at once?????

Saruman · 28-10-2005 2:34pm

You said you realised your mistake, i did not read all the posts so someone may have pointed this out but once you realised your mistake you could have gone down and the driver could have added on the rest of the money.

Here is a tip, a lot of people seem to be of the oppinion that you get on a bus and tell the driver how much you want to pay. I dont understand why that is but it seems to be the norm among a lot of people.. instead of being intelligent and telling the driver what stop.. he will then sort out the ticket price and you pay it. Simple!! You might get the wrong info from the odd driver in which case you blame him!!

Sucks you got caught even if it was an honest mistake but at the end of they day you could have paid the extra after you realised and before the inspectors got you.

Personally i think there should be one standard fare that covers you for 90 minutes on any route including Luas and DART etc. And maybe a half fare for short journeys once they are made clear.

HelterSkelter · 28-10-2005 2:40pm

Saruman wrote:

I dont understand why that is but it seems to be the norm among a lot of people.. instead of being intelligent and telling the driver what stop.. he will then sort out the ticket price and you pay it. Simple!!

If I know how much the fare should be I always tell the driver the price is opposed to stating destination. If you state the destination different drivers will charge you different prices depending on how well they know the route. Most tend to over-estimate.

Zaph0d · 28-10-2005 3:23pm

HelterSkelter wrote:

Hmm, about 4 mile round trip works out about 60c for petrol.

€2.80 parking + 60c petrol = €3.40, I save 60c by driving and not getting the bus!

This is why tax and insurance should be charged per mile.

luckat · 28-10-2005 3:37pm

Dublin Bus is an embarrassment. I burn with shame every time I hear Africans, Chinese and Russians snickering to each other about the late buses, graffiti, slovenly service and inefficiency of a service run by the Irish government.

There are no *independent* inspectors - the inspectors are all ex-bus-drivers - so the schedule is a matter of the convenience of the depot controllers and the bus staff.

The idea of giving people a "receipt" if they don't have correct change and having them redeem it at a central office is just blush-worthy.

The lack of an electronic automatic ticket service, more than FIFTEEN YEARS after it was trialled (remember the Dash cards? I still have one somewhere!) is just.... oh... don't make me talk...

And weren't we supposed to have *competition* on the buses? I thought private companies were going to be allowed to run some of the routes?

The quicker independent buses come in in Dublin, as they did on inter-city routes many years ago *without* the agreement of the monopoly-holder and its government sponsor, the better.

In my first month of getting buses to work at off-peak times, I spent €50 on taxi fares when the buses didn't come and I was going to be late.

In Japan, they manage to get a population of 127 million people to school and work on time every day. If your bus or train is even five minutes late they have to give you a note for your employer to explain that it's their fault that they're late.

But then, Japan is a grown-up country.

Bogger77 · 28-10-2005 3:59pm

yeah, the African bus systems is great, Do you need a step ladder to get off that high horse.

Private buses are allowed to compete, and the fact that they won't compete for routes is killing DubBus. DB arent allow to expand to cover new routes, and the private companies wont tender for the routes. Who loses out? The traveling public.

If you're lucky enough to live in posh areas, Castleknock, D4 or Lucan, you might have a chance of a private bus service (Ubus, air coach and Mortons), but if you're in Tallaght, Ballybrack or Donamede, you're not going to see a private bus service and DB aren't allowed to increase bus numbers, expand routes etc because of the private bus operators who might want to tender for a route in that area, but won't 'cos there's not enough profit to be made.

Due to the high level of theft and attacks on drivers, the ability for a driver to handle cash had to be taken away. Now, it's fair to say that only some routes were affected badly, but the trial removal of cash machines from from the 42C route was called discriminatory etc. So it was made a company wide.
If a local user can't be bothered to have the correct change, then tough. Tourists are a different story, but it's a small negative compared to the carnage of attacks on drivers. Ring the Clontarf depot and ask how many drivers are off due to being stabbed by a scumbag with a syringe compared to pre-cashless busses.

In Rome, you can't pay on the Buses at all, you have to purchase a ticket at a shop, which in Rome city center is hard to find after 9pm, or metro station.

Branoic · 28-10-2005 6:16pm

Bogger77 wrote:

Due to the high level of theft and attacks on drivers, the ability for a driver to handle cash had to be taken away. Now, it's fair to say that only some routes were affected badly, but the trial removal of cash machines from from the 42C route was called discriminatory etc. So it was made a company wide.
If a local user can't be bothered to have the correct change, then tough.

I agree with a lot of your post, although the idea that Lucan is considered "posh" is news to me.

But regarding the lack of cash on the buses and travellers having to have exact fare - ok, fair enough taking away the cash to protect the drivers. But the issueing of the receipt so you can go to O'Connell street and get your money is ludicrous. Why aren't you allowed use the receipt as partial payment for your next journey? Because Dublin Bus know full well that the vast majority of people will never actually go and reclaim their money. I'd love to know how much each year they make from customers who overpaid and didn't collect.

su_dios · 28-10-2005 6:49pm

I don't think Dublin Bus should have much power to fine people until they sort out their systems. I pay €1.30 twice a day, every day going to college using a bus ticket. Pretty much always use tickets, although at least once a week and sometimes 3 or 4 times I don't end up having to pay becuase when I put in the ticket it beeps and says "see drive" ..i flash the driver the card and 90% of the time they wave you on anyway. Also quite a bit of the time the ink has run out so you can't see the print on the card..if an inspector comes up can I be fined?..Like I have paid for the ticket in advance ie. €2.60...its not my fault the card reader doesn't work. Thats their responsibility surely? But how do I justify to the inspector that I have paid?...especially where the ink hasn't shown up because if you put the card in again it shows up as void. Ok that means its been used twice but doesn't show when the second time was! I could have just walked onto the bus with one of those cards. Also sometimes the machines are out of service on entry to the bus and the driver just waves people on. I think they should really get their **** in order until they decide to prosecute people

shltter · 28-10-2005 6:58pm

Branoic wrote:

I agree with a lot of your post, although the idea that Lucan is considered "posh" is news to me.

But regarding the lack of cash on the buses and travellers having to have exact fare - ok, fair enough taking away the cash to protect the drivers. But the issueing of the receipt so you can go to O'Connell street and get your money is ludicrous. Why aren't you allowed use the receipt as partial payment for your next journey? Because Dublin Bus know full well that the vast majority of people will never actually go and reclaim their money. I'd love to know how much each year they make from customers who overpaid and didn't collect.

Lucan is posh compared to some places in this city

Because if you used the refund as part payment the driver would have to collect them and they would have a monetary value and make the driver liable to robbery again

Not to mention the time wasting and people with tickets that got washed or the ones that have been sitting in someones pocket for so long that they crumble when exposed to air

AFAIK the overpayment money is kept in an account waiting to be collected as it is a debt the company owes ( I dont know if there is a time limit althought I seem to remember DB donating change money to charity one year)

What should have been done and is the case in most countries with Autofare type systems is no change
You pay the fare if you overpay tough offering people change tickets does not encourage people to have the correct fare.
It delays the bus as 2 tickets have to be issued instead of one if the change tickets were scrapped there would be a lot more people with the correct fare and the Buses would move faster
Any money collected over the value of tickets issued should be given to designated charities at the end of the Year

shltter · 28-10-2005 7:07pm

su_dios wrote:

I don't think Dublin Bus should have much power to fine people until they sort out their systems. I pay €1.30 twice a day, every day going to college using a bus ticket. Pretty much always use tickets, although at least once a week and sometimes 3 or 4 times I don't end up having to pay becuase when I put in the ticket it beeps and says "see drive" ..i flash the driver the card and 90% of the time they wave you on anyway. Also quite a bit of the time the ink has run out so you can't see the print on the card..if an inspector comes up can I be fined?..Like I have paid for the ticket in advance ie. €2.60...its not my fault the card reader doesn't work. Thats their responsibility surely? But how do I justify to the inspector that I have paid?...especially where the ink hasn't shown up because if you put the card in again it shows up as void. Ok that means its been used twice but doesn't show when the second time was! I could have just walked onto the bus with one of those cards. Also sometimes the machines are out of service on entry to the bus and the driver just waves people on. I think they should really get their **** in order until they decide to prosecute people

Once you put your prepaid card in the machine it is registered on the magnetic strip on the back
Inspectors have a hand held device that can read the cards if there is nothing printed on them

If the Machines are Faulty DB takes the loss on that what would be far worse would be if they did not operate the bus because the ticketing equipment was faulty
Then you would be left at the stop with your prepaid ticket and no bus service operating and not taking revenue acts as an incentive on them to keep their machines working.

That is completely different from someone taking it upon themselves to Board the bus and not pay any fare or pay an incorrect fare and DB are entitled to take action against such people

su_dios · 28-10-2005 7:12pm

haha well that made a lot of sense thanks:)

not complaining or anything that I get on free most times...just seems like a bit of a joke that they can't easily swap those ticket machines before going out on a route rather than leaving the bus in for repair

Bogger77 · 28-10-2005 7:59pm

su_dios wrote:

haha well that made a lot of sense thanks:)

not complaining or anything that I get on free most times...just seems like a bit of a joke that they can't easily swap those ticket machines before going out on a route rather than leaving the bus in for repair

the reader is linked to the drivers unit, it takes 5 minutes to swap them over, once the engineer gets to the bus, but with traffic and having to meet the bus at a terminus. There's just too many units that break down, it's easier for them to wait til the bus comes back to the garage

shltter · 28-10-2005 8:18pm

su_dios wrote:

haha well that made a lot of sense thanks:)

not complaining or anything that I get on free most times...just seems like a bit of a joke that they can't easily swap those ticket machines before going out on a route rather than leaving the bus in for repair

There is a van that operates one for the Northside one Southside it carries spare machines that can be changed however if the bus is in portmanrnock and the van is in FInglas there is not much point in holding the Bus up to wait for the van
A lot of the time they will try to meet in around town where the van can service a couple of buses at the same time

There is an agreement that the Driver only has to operate to the next terminus with faulty ticket equipment that was brought in to force the company to deal with broken down machines as prior to that drivers were being left with faulty machines all day
Usually drivers dont enforce that rule so as not to disrupt the service but if they feel they are being messed about and the company is not making a genuine effort to fix the machine can enforce it or threaten to enforce it

luckat · 28-10-2005 9:11pm

And what's stopping the entrepreneurs of Ballyfermot and Kilbarrack from starting their own private bus routes, as people did in Derry with the Black Taxis?

luckat · 28-10-2005 9:12pm

Oh, and by the way, I'm not on my high horse, I'm waiting at the bus stop.

bungeecork · 01-11-2005 5:41am

When I worked in Sydney, a guy I worked with had calculated that if he only got fined three times a year for paying the incorrect fare, he'd still be better off than paying the full fare all year. So he duly bought only the concession fares and planned to pay the full fare after his third fine.

There are people who think there really is nothing wrong with "saving" money this way. :mad:

HelterSkelter · 01-11-2005 11:08am

Branoic wrote:

But regarding the lack of cash on the buses and travellers having to have exact fare - ok, fair enough taking away the cash to protect the drivers. But the issueing of the receipt so you can go to O'Connell street and get your money is ludicrous. Why aren't you allowed use the receipt as partial payment for your next journey?

Wouldn't that slow things down? If a lot of people getting on are presenting a "change ticket" and paying the balance in cash won't the driver spend a lot of time checking? It will slow the whole journey down. If people are too lazy to exchange their ticket in town touch shít I say. It's not really that big a deal to have the exact change ready in advance.

pickarooney · 01-11-2005 1:10pm

Bogger77 wrote:

In Rome, you can't pay on the Buses at all, you have to purchase a ticket at a shop, which in Rome city center is hard to find after 9pm, or metro station.

Ah, okay, that explains why not a single person on the bus had a ticket last time I was there, and why my friend laughed at my suggestion that I buy one.
Mind you it was only midday...

MorningStar · 01-11-2005 2:59pm

luckat wrote:

Dublin Bus is an embarrassment. I burn with shame every time I hear Africans, Chinese and Russians snickering to each other about the late buses, graffiti, slovenly service and inefficiency of a service run by the Irish government.
.

Maybe you should learn what is embarrassing. The Dublin Bus service is comparable to many world wide. On my travels I have met many services that don't give change and all these other things you think are embarrassing. Russias service is about to collapse and had huge price hikes. China is a communist country that kill protestors and many people come here from African countries and seek asylum because they will be killed at home. So some guy who can't even live in his country is snigering at us because our bus service is bad and you are embarrassed?

You need to grow up and be proud of what we have. From my experience most vistors here think the transport system is good.

luckat · 01-11-2005 3:06pm

I'm already grown up.

I want Ireland to have the best possible bus service. It's not good enough. In fact, it's a bad service. You just have to look at the groups of people standing on corners on routes where there are two bus stops around the corner from each other - waiting to hare for one or the other bus when it arrives.

I don't want to have a bus service that means I pay for a taxi every few days to get to work in time (I work odd hours, by the way), because the rostered bus just doesn't arrive. And this is within a couple of miles of Dublin city centre.

In countries with a working bus service, the bus stop says what time the bus is due, and the bus arrives at that time, and gets to its destination on time.

HelterSkelter · 01-11-2005 3:24pm

luckat wrote:

In countries with a working bus service, the bus stop says what time the bus is due, and the bus arrives at that time, and gets to its destination on time.

How the hell are they supposed to give that information? I live about 3 miles from my job, I drive in every day. Some days it takes 30 mins, other days it takes 10 mins. There is no way to predict how heavy the traffic will be on any given morning. If I was a bus and the timetable said I would arrive in my job 15 mins after I left my house it would be wrong 60% of the time. The only way they could have a timetable that gives the time the bus arrives at each bus stop is to take the time from one bus stop to the next in worst case senario and use that. If the bus happens to be early it would have to wait at each bus stop until it's scheduled departure time from that bus stop. Would you like to be sitting on a bus in light traffic that waits 5 - 10 mins at each bus stop purely for the purpose of sticking to the timetable?

BTW, can you give us an example of the country with the perfect bus service that operates as you say?

MorningStar · 01-11-2005 4:26pm

luckat wrote:

I'm already grown up.

I want Ireland to have the best possible bus service. It's not good enough. In fact, it's a bad service. You just have to look at the groups of people standing on corners on routes where there are two bus stops around the corner from each other - waiting to hare for one or the other bus when it arrives.

I don't want to have a bus service that means I pay for a taxi every few days to get to work in time (I work odd hours, by the way), because the rostered bus just doesn't arrive. And this is within a couple of miles of Dublin city centre.

In countries with a working bus service, the bus stop says what time the bus is due, and the bus arrives at that time, and gets to its destination on time.

You can barrate the bus system all you like but I have seen both worse and better. The Irish bus system is by no means the worst. You may want it to be the best but to say you are embarrased to the extent you said is extreme overkill.

Have you ever taken a proper track of when buses don't turn up and written a letter of complaint? Or (which is more likely) you just complain to other people rather than those in charge.

In many countries the bus timetable only state leaving times it's not like we are uniquly failing here. Many services don't carry change and many don't even give you the option to get change.

You sound like you know what is wrong witrh our bus service yet unaware that many countries operate like this also.

luckat · 02-11-2005 1:06am

It's pretty usual in Europe to have the times of arrival on bus stops. First time I saw it was on a trip to Amsterdam around 10 or 12 years ago.

No, I don't take note of when the buses don't arrive and grass up the drivers; I don't think it's my job. It's the job of the company to make sure its service is properly run.

I've been advised by bus workers to phone the garage to check if a particular bus (for instance, the 5.42 from Sallynoggin or whatever) is actually going to travel on a particular day, but have never had the nerve to do so.

And if I'm berating the bus service it's because I don't want to pay taxi fares, over and over again, when I'm waiting in vain for a bus rostered (supposedly) for when I'm due to go in to work. I don't want to let a bunch of 19As go by because the 54A that would bring me exactly where I want to go and in half the time is due - and then have the 54A not turn up. I don't want to sit for 45 minutes in traffic jams in George's Street because the bus service and the roads authorities can't get it together to see that they need a bus lane going right down from the Bleeding Horse to Dame Street...

markpb · 02-11-2005 9:43am

HelterSkelter wrote:

How the hell are they supposed to give that information? I live about 3 miles from my job, I drive in every day. Some days it takes 30 mins, other days it takes 10 mins. There is no way to predict how heavy the traffic will be on any given morning.

Of course there is! Proper bus lanes that are continuous and are fitted with priority lights at junctions. Bus lanes that don't end 50m before a junction and that aren't clogged with cars for the first 50m after a junction.

With a decent bus lane system in use, there's no reason on earth why DB couldn't accurately predict the arrival times of buses at each stop.

Just because we make a half-assed job of it doesn't mean its not possible.

MorningStar · 02-11-2005 9:53am

luckat wrote:

It's pretty usual in Europe to have the times of arrival on bus stops. First time I saw it was on a trip to Amsterdam around 10 or 12 years ago.

It is also equally usual for the time tables to say depature times.

luckat wrote:

No, I don't take note of when the buses don't arrive and grass up the drivers; I don't think it's my job. It's the job of the company to make sure its service is properly run.

If you aren't going to complain to the people who run the service stop complaining altogether. THe idea you are grassing up a driver is childish and may not be the cause in the first place.

luckat wrote:

I've been advised by bus workers to phone the garage to check if a particular bus (for instance, the 5.42 from Sallynoggin or whatever) is actually going to travel on a particular day, but have never had the nerve to do so.

What are you affraid of? Are you only able to complain or ask questions with a PC?:rolleyes:

luckat wrote:

And if I'm berating the bus service it's because I don't want to pay taxi fares, over and over again, when I'm waiting in vain for a bus rostered (supposedly) for when I'm due to go in to work. I don't want to let a bunch of 19As go by because the 54A that would bring me exactly where I want to go and in half the time is due - and then have the 54A not turn up. I don't want to sit for 45 minutes in traffic jams in George's Street because the bus service and the roads authorities can't get it together to see that they need a bus lane going right down from the Bleeding Horse to Dame Street...

Then complain to the company. Don't bring nationality into it! Don't blame them traffic congestion on a bus company!

HelterSkelter · 02-11-2005 11:25am

markpb wrote:

Of course there is! Proper bus lanes that are continuous and are fitted with priority lights at junctions. Bus lanes that don't end 50m before a junction and that aren't clogged with cars for the first 50m after a junction.

With a decent bus lane system in use, there's no reason on earth why DB couldn't accurately predict the arrival times of buses at each stop.

Just because we make a half-assed job of it doesn't mean its not possible.

We don't have the space for bus lanes. How are you supposed to fit bus lanes on the Crumlin road for example?

secret_squirrel · 02-11-2005 7:29pm

MorningStar wrote:

It is also equally usual for the time tables to say depature times.

I think luckat was refering to having the exact arrival time of each bus electronically displayed at the bus stop. It seems pretty standard now in a lot of smaller towns than dublin as well as capital cities like Amsterdam and London.

vector · 03-11-2005 1:54am

Zaph0d wrote:

This is why tax and insurance should be charged per mile.

surely you mean per kilometer

and just insurance, which is commercial

but either way no, it is we already pay for petrol in this way (ie the more you travel the more it costs)

Fined on Dublin Bus!

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