Metric Speed Signs

Yoda · 04-08-2004 12:50pm

Is there any way of finding out what they have chosen, I wonder. Do they put these out for public comment or anything? (I remember the Dublin road signage debacle.)

sliabh · 04-08-2004 1:03pm

Victor wrote:

If they go for the French design, it has the "km/h"(?) included.

I think the red border signs are to go, to be replaced by black and white ones.

I was travelling to Donegal last weekend and the silliness of the current situation was apparent. Crossing the border you go from speeds and distance in miles to speeds in miles and then distance in Km. Consistency will be good. But I did notice that the signs on the Irish side made an effort (especially newar the border) to remind people that the distance units are km. No such concession is made in the North. Something that might possible have to change?

Hagar · 04-08-2004 1:13pm

sliabh wrote:

No such concession is made in the North.

When was the last time anyone in the North conceded anything?

On a related note, has anyone looked at the new "no overtaking" signs. The signs are quite detailed. If you look carefully the headlights are visible but the driver is on the wrong side. Mr Brennan must have bought them cheap from a continental supplier.

Victor · 04-08-2004 4:49pm

Hagar wrote:

On a related note, has anyone looked at the new "no overtaking" signs. The signs are quite detailed. If you look carefully the headlights are visible but the driver is on the wrong side. Mr Brennan must have bought them cheap from a continental supplier.

It's to stop people over-taking on the left aswell.

vinnyfitz · 04-08-2004 5:19pm

I see speculation in the Irish Times motoring section today that implementation of KM/hour signage may be delayed till early 2005. (Report there says the privatisation of speed cameras is apparently subject to the revision of speed limits.)

BrianD · 04-08-2004 5:49pm

For the most part you can get away with over stickering the existing dials. Provided of course you know exactly what spec they have.

Not so easy apparently because of the parralax effect. Most cars have angled perspex in front of the instrument cluster so the sticker approach may give false speed indications. The dashboard would have to be dismantled and the sticker applied directly to the guage increasing the cost.

I don't think a dual-sign changeover will be required. Just state you changeover day and promote it adequately - any speed signs that aren't changed can be treated as KM so a driver can never be caught speeding!

PBC_1966 · 04-08-2004 6:25pm

Yoda wrote:

Nations often have bureaus of standards, and according to legislation, it is perfectly reasonable for a government to set mandatory specifications for the units of measure which it considers to be legal for transactions.

For official transactions or purposes, maybe. But if two individuals are happy to use some other agreed unit beteen themselves, it's none of the government's business, except insofar as to prevent fraud by short measures.

Metric units have been legally recognized in the U.K. for over a century anyway, and thus acceptable for transactions from the government's point of view. Presumably the legality of metric was retained in Ireland after the formation of the Irish Free State. What we in Britain are objecting to is the outlawing of continued use of English/Imperial units.

seamus wrote:

Changing to the metric system is imposing a change upon the nation, but at every avenue, choice is still left open - even if the country switches to metric, people can still use imperial

If that's true in Ireland, then good. But in Britain people are not still free to use Imperial -- The government has stated so and backed up that assertion with threats and prosecutions of those who continue to do so. We're also under the threat that by 2010 the EU will make it illegal to even include Imperial equivalents on packaging. So where's the freedom of choice?

But I don't want to hijack the subject at hand.....

Victor wrote:

If they go for the French design, it has the "km/h"(?) included.

French speed limit signs are just the number inside the normal European red circle. There's no "km/h" displayed on them.

Maybe the Irish authorities will use the same design of signs but add a "km/h" tag under the number, similar to way in which the new distance signs added "km" to them.

sliabh wrote:

I think the red border signs are to go, to be replaced by black and white ones.

Do you mean like American-style speed limit signs? That would be nice. U.S. signage is much more logical and consistent than European, and you already have the yellow diamond warning signs in Ireland.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 6:37pm

PBC,

Having the "choice" between two different systems of measurement doesn't seem to me to be all it's cracked up to be, particularly when one is simple and logical and used everywhere else in the world. The people who live in Britain and Ireland are intelligent, adaptable people, and I am sure that with a little effort they can all learn to use the metric system.

You could embrace a sensible and inevitable change, and help to bring it about, or you could whine about it and dig your heels and keep life difficult for everyone. I guess it's your choice.

seamus · 04-08-2004 8:25pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

If that's true in Ireland, then good. But in Britain people are not still free to use Imperial -- The government has stated so and backed up that assertion with threats and prosecutions of those who continue to do so. We're also under the threat that by 2010 the EU will make it illegal to even include Imperial equivalents on packaging. So where's the freedom of choice?

In your head. If imperial means that much to you, you carry around a pocket calculator, or the obligatory converter that will no doubt be issued to everyone before the change. If you wish to continue your business in imperial, then you are free to do so, but you must put it in metric for everyone else. There your freedom of choice.

It's exactly like switching currency to the decimal system. I suppose that was a ridiculous change, and even worse that shops aren't allowed put up prices in halfpennies and shillings? *shudder*

fjon · 05-08-2004 10:05am

BrianD wrote:

I don't think a dual-sign changeover will be required. Just state you changeover day and promote it adequately - any speed signs that aren't changed can be treated as KM so a driver can never be caught speeding!

30 KMpH? Ugh!

sliabh · 05-08-2004 10:19am

fwk wrote:

30 KMpH? Ugh!

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones.

What I would like to see then is increased (usually double) penalty points for special areas like schools, construction zones and going really fast over the limit, say 30mph/48kmph. I know they do it in other countries but I just can't remember where.

sliabh · 05-08-2004 10:24am

BrianD wrote:

Not so easy apparently because of the parralax effect. Most cars have angled perspex in front of the instrument cluster so the sticker approach may give false speed indications. The dashboard would have to be dismantled and the sticker applied directly to the guage increasing the cost.
!

I did say sticker the dial rather than the display :-)

I have revently thought of getting my spedo and trip unit replaced with a metric one (the easiest way to go metric being not to have to ever think about miles). Does anyone know how much that would be likely to cost?

PBC_1966 · 06-08-2004 8:48pm

seamus wrote:

If you wish to continue your business in imperial, then you are free to do so, but you must put it in metric for everyone else

Maybe you don't realize that according to our government, we are not free to continue our business in Imperial. That's the whole point. They have made it a criminal offense to use Imperial measures in shops.

The key is in your own words: "Your business." If a buyer wants to buy a pound of apples from a trader, and the trader wants to sell him a pound of apples, then you've hit the nail on the head. It is their business -- Not yours, not mine, and certainly not the government's.

It's exactly like switching currency to the decimal system. I suppose that was a ridiculous change, and even worse that shops aren't allowed put up prices in halfpennies and shillings? *shudder*

So far as I'm aware there's no law preventing shops from still quoting prices in LSD should they so wish. Or they can price in U.S. dollars, Swiss francs, euros, or anything else they care to use.

PBC_1966 · 06-08-2004 8:52pm

sliabh wrote:

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones

We've had 20 mph zones being introduced in Britain over the last couple of years, generally in crowded town streets, some residential areas, and a few villages.

In typical British fashion though, the authorities have made a confusing mess of the signs. IN many cases they use "special" signs with "20 mph zone" on them, then a gray crossed-out version at the end of the 20 zone.

Why not just a regular sign with 20 on it at the beginning and one with 30 or whatever the speed needs to be at the end? :rolleyes:

John R · 06-08-2004 9:01pm

ATM a display with shiny screw heads indicates there is a good chance a clocker has been at it, if people start getting them taken apart for KmH stickers to be put in it will make it even harder to spot the fake mileages.

seamus · 07-08-2004 4:37pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

The key is in your own words: "Your business." If a buyer wants to buy a pound of apples from a trader, and the trader wants to sell him a pound of apples, then you've hit the nail on the head. It is their business -- Not yours, not mine, and certainly not the government's.

Nope, and they are still free to carry their transaction like that, that's what I'm trying to get across to you. If someone says "Give me a pound of apples please", the shopkeeper is still free to weigh out a pound of apples and charge for them. Non-display of imperial measurements is a necessary step to take in Britain I believe, as there tends to be groups of harcore fanatics in that country who actively resist and protest the slightest progress whatsoever. These people would refuse to show metric, if they were allowed, negating the whole point of the changeover.

So far as I'm aware there's no law preventing shops from still quoting prices in LSD should they so wish. Or they can price in U.S. dollars, Swiss francs, euros, or anything else they care to use.

But they wouldn't, because no-one would care. In Ireland, shops are obliged to display the euro price and euro price per kilo for all packaged goods. If they weren't, you would have had the usual naysayer shopkeepers and publicans refusing to display their prices in euro at the time of the changeover.

Yoda · 08-08-2004 3:21pm

sliabh wrote:

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones.

In the States, I think its 15mph in a school zone, 25mph in a residential zone, 35mph generally in town, 45mph on larger roads out of town, and then 55mph-75mph depending what kind of highway and where it is.

Yoda · 08-08-2004 3:26pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

Maybe you don't realize that according to our government, we are not free to continue our business in Imperial. That's the whole point. They have made it a criminal offense to use Imperial measures in shops.

Yeah, well, you are not free to resolve private dispute by duelling, either, which I am sure is something that people bitched about when your government took away their natural right to run one another through with sabres.

Metrification's a fact. Accept it, adopt it, learn it, encourage it. Or whine about it until your deathbed. Sheesh.

PBC_1966 · 09-08-2004 9:57am

seamus wrote:

Nope, and they are still free to carry their transaction like that, that's what I'm trying to get across to you. If someone says "Give me a pound of apples please", the shopkeeper is still free to weigh out a pound of apples and charge for them.

From http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/aboutus.htm :

My involvement began on 9th March, 2000 when I was served with a ' Notice of Seizure', by Mr.R.Reading, a local Trading Standards Officer who informed me that if my imperial scales were not converted to metric or replaced within 28 days then they would be liable to seizure or forfeiture, and I could be fined and/or face criminal penalties.

But on 4th July, two Trading Standards Officers, Mr. Fallon and Mr. Reading, accompanied by TWO POLICE OFFICERS, marched into Steven Thoburn's shop at The Green, Southwick, Sunderland, and seized three sets of imperial scales.

He was warned that if he objected he would be arrested.

Do you still claim that British shopkeepers are free to continue using Imperial measures?

PBC_1966 · 09-08-2004 10:05am

Yoda wrote:

In the States, I think its 15mph in a school zone, 25mph in a residential zone, 35mph generally in town, 45mph on larger roads out of town, and then 55mph-75mph depending what kind of highway and where it is.

There are variations as the limits are set by each individual jurisdiction, but that's a pretty fair assessment.

School zones often have a sign posted with amber lights "15 mph when flashing" or something similar, then the prevailing 25 or 30 limit applies at other times. Some places it's just a sign which says the lower limit applies during certain hours on school days.

Since the removal of the national 55 limit most states have gradually raised the open highway limits on interstates and other main highways. 75 is most common in the west, with 65 or 70 in many other areas.

Montana now has no explicitly assigned open-highway limit, but has reverted to their old definition of "Reasonable & prudent."

daggeredge · 09-08-2004 10:31am

anybody with a speedo in miles in a couple of years is going to look SO outdated!

I think it could be the power of lobbying by the car companies to change it (because of the irish fascination with being ahead and having the newest!!!! and the fact they want to sell more cars)

I refer you to the fact we're the only country in the world that i know of with the year as part of the licence plate!!! And if you have a '03 car??? what have you been doing??? you could be like most of my neighbours and buy the same color, model, spec, options for 7k more all for the sake of pushing the plate up a digit!!

I also refer you to the NCT, funnily enough new car sales shot up after this & the irish fascination with buying older cars (more than 2 years old anyway)died....

In Canada they had a similar system and it was scrapped cos it was CONTRACTED (seem familiar?) out and the company were failing cars for the most minor of offences, just to get more money

If you drive a Yaris you can avoid this speedo thing though... only car I know of with a button to change the digital speedo from miles to km... (don't drive one... have a micra)

I for one question the power the car companies have over the Government and wonder why we don't learn from other countries and follow up on some of their better ideas (drivers ed in USA for example)

BrianD · 09-08-2004 10:37am

In Sydney down under, once the hazard lights come on a public bus then the speed limit changes to 40KPH. They even have a 40 sign painted on the bus.

PBC_1966 · 09-08-2004 1:14pm

BrianD wrote:

In Sydney down under, once the hazard lights come on a public bus then the speed limit changes to 40KPH.

For anyone not aware of this, in the U.S. traffic is required to stop completely while a school bus is picking up or letting off children. They usually turn on amber flashing lights just prior to stopping, then they change to red front and back as it pulls up. On many buses a STOP sign also swings out from the left hand side. The requirement to stop is taken very seriously.

daggeredge wrote:

I refer you to the fact we're the only country in the world that i know of with the year as part of the licence plate!!!

The year has been part of U.K. registrations for the last 40 years, first as a suffix letter, then a prefix letter, and now as two digits in the middle.

It's always struck me as being totally unnecessary. The letter depends upon the date of first registration, not the date the car was made anyway. As you point out, it results in ridiculous one-upmanship between some people as they could buy two cars which came off the production line the same day, yet one registered on August 1 would get, say, an S registration while the one registered on July 31 would be R. (The current system changes every 6 months rather than every year.)

mackerski · 09-08-2004 6:37pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

Maybe you don't realize that according to our government, we are not free to continue our business in Imperial. That's the whole point. They have made it a criminal offense to use Imperial measures in shops.

Not exactly - it was always an offence to sell loose goods using unapproved measures. Over the ages, the weights and measures people have enforced different rules on what units were approved. Most obsolete measures appear to have vanished without a whimper. Unfortunately, even though the UK metrication originally had nothing to do with the Common Market (as it was) and, was, I believe, in the 60s, even driven by a Tory government, obstinate opposition to the use of sane measures is now seen as a useful badge of eurosceptic identity.

Your "metric martyrs" were prosecuted for using weights or weighing apparatus whose official seals had been struck off. Now, you might feel that it would convey additional freedom on you to be allowed to negotiate the purchase of a pound of apples. My feeling is that you'd be far safer going for 450g or thereabouts, since at least the crown on the weights used would tell you you weren't being diddled. That, after all, is the whole point of having approved measures and penalties for those that neglect to use them.

Dermot

Metric Speed Signs

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