Metric Speed Signs

rcunning03 · 02-08-2004 1:40am #1

Does anybody know when speed signs in km/h will happen? The last I heard was September but I can't see it happening in one month.

parsi · 02-08-2004 1:45am

I believe (per ie.general) that this has been quietly put back to December..of course mr "i am the man" brennan won't tell us this....

however judging by my travels this weekend most people seem to think that 50mph is the national limit if not 41mph or 45mph - thisapplies particularly to main roads such as "Kilkenny - Carlow" or "Carlow - next big city"

BIG HINT - if there is a queue behine you it means they want to go faster than you ya muppet....

rcunning03 · 02-08-2004 1:54am

I think it was orignally scheldued for 1993 or thereabouts but they kept extending the deadline. I can't see it happening this year as they only get back from holidays in October. Thank God Ancient Eygpt didn't have Fianna Fail, otherwise we'd still be in the planning process for the Pyramids.

George_h · 02-08-2004 2:39am

And as far as I know, there is no EU directive to actually force all the signs to be changed into kmh. Dual Signs are fine as far as the EU is concerned.

As for lines of traffic, a lot of people seem to think that 60mph is too slow in a line of traffic. There's always one muppet prepared to overtake a stream of traffic just to get 5 extra minutes of their journey. Must account for all the bank holiday accidents. Why not just leave earlier, relax and enjoy the trip.

There's enough carnage on the road.

Tarabuses · 02-08-2004 8:57pm

But George, we do not have dual signs for speed limits.

parsi · 02-08-2004 9:05pm

George_h wrote:

And as far as I know, there is no EU directive to actually force all the signs to be changed into kmh. Dual Signs are fine as far as the EU is concerned.

As for lines of traffic, a lot of people seem to think that 60mph is too slow in a line of traffic. There's always one muppet prepared to overtake a stream of traffic just to get 5 extra minutes of their journey. Must account for all the bank holiday accidents. Why not just leave earlier, relax and enjoy the trip.

There's enough carnage on the road.

Indeed - but if you spend a long time behind someone doing 10mph less than the limit then you do waste a lot of time - also seems that these folks go at their 50mph irrespective of the posted limits so they are too slow on the main road and they speed through the 30 zones...

cyclopath2001 · 02-08-2004 10:12pm

Many drivers just make their own rules.

I was passed (on the inside, in a bus lane) on the N32 by one driver doing 55 in a 40 zone. When I got to the M50, he was in the outside lane holding everyone up, still doing 55.......

Why not install satellite tracking in all cars? That way speed limits could be constantly enforced, tolls collected and stolen cars traced. There would be no need for new signs as the cars would be fed the appropriate limit by satellite & automatically limited according to best-practice for the conditions.

PBC_1966 · 02-08-2004 11:06pm

rcunning03 wrote:

Does anybody know when speed signs in km/h will happen? The last I heard was September but I can't see it happening in one month.

And did anybody ask you -- the Irish public -- whether you wanted to change or not? Nope, didn't think so.

Once you've switched to all-metric signs you can bet that our bunch here in the U.K. will then start using that to try to force it on us as well: "Look, even Ireland has changed' we're the only EU country using miles now." :mad:

sliabh · 03-08-2004 10:08am

PBC_1966 wrote:

And did anybody ask you -- the Irish public -- whether you wanted to change or not? Nope, didn't think so.

Actually I am all for it. Metric is considerably better and soooo much easier to understand. I was in the UK a few weeks ago when this came up for discussion. I held a quick straw poll and only half of those present (all good middle Englanders) could tell me how many yards there are in a mile (1760). It seems funny that they are so attached to a system that they don't even understand! :-)

PBC_1966 wrote:

Once you've switched to all-metric signs you can bet that our bunch here in the U.K. will then start using that to try to force it on us as well: "Look, even Ireland has changed' we're the only EU country using miles now." :mad:

There is an attempt to restart the conversion campaign over there already. I was reading about it a few weeks ago [http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=783582004].

The former Conservative Chancellor Lord Howe was the spokesman. He was saying that the campaign had grounded around 1979 and today to many people just assume it's an EU thing. But as he said everyone else other than the US is using metric. And the change is something that was first recommended by a UK parliamentary committee in 1862!!!

seamus · 03-08-2004 10:52am

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Why not install satellite tracking in all cars? That way speed limits could be constantly enforced, tolls collected and stolen cars traced. There would be no need for new signs as the cars would be fed the appropriate limit by satellite & automatically limited according to best-practice for the conditions.

Because people have the right to make choices. As a voluntary measure, incurring tax relief and lower insurance, it would be great, but to force it on people, nope. Not in a million years.

seamus · 03-08-2004 10:54am

PBC_1966 wrote:

And did anybody ask you -- the Irish public -- whether you wanted to change or not? Nope, didn't think so.

Once you've switched to all-metric signs you can bet that our bunch here in the U.K. will then start using that to try to force it on us as well: "Look, even Ireland has changed' we're the only EU country using miles now." :mad:

What's the problem with changing to metric?

There is not one good reason why Imperial is a better system of measures than metric.

PBC_1966 · 03-08-2004 11:29am

The problem with metrication is that many of us in the U.K. don't want it, and are fed up with the draconian way that the government has forced it upon us. Sure, there are people who don't know there are 1760 yards in a mile, but you'll also find those who don't know how many milliliters in a liter. That's just down to education.

Why should the taxpayer be stuck with the bill for converting thousands of roadsigns to metric when the majority of people don't want the conversion to begin with?

If anything, there is an increasing determination to fight the bureaucrats on this one. Considering the way our government has bullied and intimidated shopkeeepers over metric, in many cases using an approach worthy of any police-state, that's not really surprising.

Have a look at these links for some background:

http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/aboutus.htm

http://www.bwmaonline.com/

sliabh · 03-08-2004 12:10pm

Why you may not want it you can't come up with a good reason why not to change either, other than "this is the way we always did it". Which is a pretty daft reason.

And there are very good reasons for the Government pushing the change. It's costly and confusing having two systems of units. Or do you think that the Government has nothing better to do with it's time than pissing off voters for the fun of it. They are pushing metric because it makes sense

seamus · 03-08-2004 12:43pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

The problem with metrication is that many of us in the U.K. don't want it, and are fed up with the draconian way that the government has forced it upon us. Sure, there are people who don't know there are 1760 yards in a mile, but you'll also find those who don't know how many milliliters in a liter. That's just down to education.

The education is mostly irrelevant, except that there's more to metrication than the numbers. Once people know what the prefixes stand for, you know how many of what is in what.
That is, we know a kilometre is 1000 metres, that a centimetre is one hundreth of a metre, a millimetre is one thousandth of a metre.

Take a new metric unit. Let's call it the utafa. God knows what an utafa is, or how long it is. But, we do know that a kiloutafa is 1000 utafas, a deciutafa is one tenth of an utafa and a megautafa is 1 million utafas.

Since all units, no matter what you're measuring, stick to the same standards, then you know that the same rules apply.

I've done this before, but record how long it takes you to solve the following two sums without a calculator, and you'll see why metric can only be good.

1) Convert 23.75 kilometres to metres
2) Convert 23.75 miles to yards.

Yoda · 03-08-2004 8:35pm

A fine example. 23.75 kilometres is 23,750 metres, and 23.75 miles is 41,799.99983375 yards....

PBC_1966 · 03-08-2004 11:12pm

sliabh wrote:

Why you may not want it you can't come up with a good reason why not to change either

I thought I just gave a perfectly good reason: It will cost the taxpayer a lot of money for something that the majority of people see no need for.

It's costly and confusing having two systems of units.

Agreed. So why was there any need to start messing around with units in the first place by forcing metric on everybody?

Yoda wrote:

and 23.75 miles is 41,799.99983375 yards....

You need to get a better calculator. 23.75 miles is 41,800 yards -- exactly.

seamus · 03-08-2004 11:22pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

I thought I just gave a perfectly good reason: It will cost the taxpayer a lot of money for something that the majority of people see no need for.

How do you know that the majority of people see no need for it? It's the people who oppose a change that shout the loudest.

Agreed. So why was there any need to start messing around with units in the first place by forcing metric on everybody?

Because the imperial system was conceived by Lords who could afford educated people to do their calculating for them and/or were educated enough to do it themselves. It was a system of control of peasants by keeping them ignorant, and is completely defunct. It's unnecessarily complicated, and difficult for Joe Street to use in terms of how many ounces in a stone, or how many lbs in a tonne. There is no valid case for not dumping it, and forgetting about it.

You need to get a better calculator. 23.75 miles is 41,800 yards -- exactly.

Did you bother to time yourself?

mike65 · 03-08-2004 11:31pm

God be with the metric martyres eh?

We've gone this far in metrication -food, drink, area, weight, volume, etc it would be foolish to spoil the effect for a happeneth of tar!

Mike.

tribble · 03-08-2004 11:35pm

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Why not install satellite tracking in all cars? That way speed limits could be constantly enforced, tolls collected and stolen cars traced. There would be no need for new signs as the cars would be fed the appropriate limit by satellite & automatically limited according to best-practice for the conditions.

You really want the government tracking you're every movement?
You feel they can be trusted to secure and not abuse this information?
(this is not a retorical question).

tribble

sliabh · 04-08-2004 7:44am

PBC_1966 wrote:

I thought I just gave a perfectly good reason: It will cost the taxpayer a lot of money for something that the majority of people see no need for.

"It's costly and confusing having two systems of units. "

Agreed. So why was there any need to start messing around with units in the first place by forcing metric on everybody?
[/b].

Because the once off cost of the change is less than the ongoing cost of having two systems of units.

Frankly it's no skin of my nose if you continue to use some obsolete, antiquated system of units from day-to-day (hey, why not use cubits?). Your engineers and scientists will continue to use metric and your companies and citizens will be at a disadvantage when then go out into the rest of the world.

fjon · 04-08-2004 10:19am

Anyway...
As this change if inevitably going to happen in Ireland, and hopefully before 2005, any cars made for the Irish market will have to have speedos with KM/pH, or dual speedos with KM/pH dominant.
Does this mean that the MPH clocks will also be changed to KM? I would say this would cause a bit of confusion, especially for those looking to buy a second hand car.
By the way - this now means there will be cars made only for the Irish market (Right-hand Drive and KM/pH Speedos) - we currently have UK/ Ireland cars.

GillyS · 04-08-2004 10:23am

Just to let you know my wife picked up her new golf last week and the speedo (and the trip computer) are all in kmh - so its already happening.

Gilly

sliabh · 04-08-2004 10:52am

For the most part you can get away with over stickering the existing dials. Provided of course you know exactly what spec they have.

From a car manufacturer's point of view they already make dials with Km/h on them so its not a problem to ensure that all Irish cars have these. It's not like they have to make a specifically Irish design.

If you consider the Vauxhall/Opel cars. Its the same car (with a UK/Ireland spec rather than Continental Europe) just different branding for Ireland and it doesn't seem to be a problem for Opel.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 10:58am

Japan makes cars, and prefers km/h and has right-hand drive.

PBC_1966 · 04-08-2004 11:00am

seamus wrote:

How do you know that the majority of people see no need for it? It's the people who oppose a change that shout the loudest.

Maybe it's different in Ireland, but just visit England and ask around. Or go into shops and listen to people trying to work out how big/heavy something is when the packaging shows only metric. Go to the deli counter and observe how many people ask for 4 oz. of ham or 8 oz. of cheese. Ask anybody here how tall he is, or how much he weighs. How many do you think will answer in meters and kilograms?

Did you bother to time yourself?

Can't say that I did.

I'm not anti-metric as such. I use metric every day in my electronics work, but when it comes to measuring carpet or weighing out ingredients for dinner, I use feet & inches, pounds & ounces because they're what we have traditionally used for such things and they are comfortable, easily-visualized quantities. (By the way, not all measurements in engineering work are metric either.)

Again, maybe Ireland is different, but the thing which has angered people in the U.K. is the draconian way that the authorities have tried to intimidate people and turn them into criminals for refusing to use metric. The Sunderland case linked to above is an excellent example.

If people want to use metric voluntarily, then fine. But the government has no business trying to force it on people when all parties to the transaction involved want to use the units they have grown-up with and are comfortable with. To quote your comments from a little way up the thread regarding satellite tracking:

seamus wrote:

Because people have the right to make choices. As a voluntary measure, incurring tax relief and lower insurance, it would be great, but to force it on people, nope. Not in a million years.

Do you not believe that the same argument applies?

Speaking of which.....

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Why not install satellite tracking in all cars? That way speed limits could be constantly enforced, tolls collected and stolen cars traced. There would be no need for new signs as the cars would be fed the appropriate limit by satellite & automatically limited according to best-practice for the conditions

The British govt. has already been kicking this idea around recently. The suggestion was that they would scrap the road tax and cut the tax on fuel, then every vehicle would be fitted with a tracking device and charged based on the distance traveled. The per-mile (or maybe per-kilometer?

) fee would vary depending upon the type of road, ranging up to over £1 per mile for the main motorways! :eek:

Call me cynical, but I think the govt. would also be delighted at the audit trail that would left behind enabling them to track the exact whereabouts of every vehicle at any given moment. It's as much to do with surveillance as with revenue-raising.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 11:16am

Nations often have bureaus of standards, and according to legislation, it is perfectly reasonable for a government to set mandatory specifications for the units of measure which it considers to be legal for transactions.

I was raised in the US and remember in 1970 when they told us in school that we were going to switch to the metric system. Alas, it it didn't happen. When I moved to Ireland I set my typesetting defaults to metric and haven't looked back since. After 14 years a lot of Fahrenheit is lost to me. I have a "feeling" for my weight in pounds (not stone, not kg), it is true. But I am happy buying salami in grams, and happy that it's priced that way.

seamus · 04-08-2004 11:56am

PBC_1966 wrote:

Do you not believe that the same argument applies?

No. The difference is between individual and national. Forcing limiters on cars is imposing a restriction upon the individual, without the ability to choose. One will always be restricted, and hasn't the option to drive at the speed they wish. Changing to the metric system is imposing a change upon the nation, but at every avenue, choice is still left open - even if the country switches to metric, people can still use imperial - you may have to get your calculator out, but the choice is there.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 12:14pm

I believe that the metric system was already adopted by Ireland, a good while ago. It is simply the implementation that has lagged behind. (Which is stupid, because you wouldn't be complaining if it hadn't.)

vinnyfitz · 04-08-2004 12:22pm

The changeover will happen on or before 1 Jan 2005. Brennan said on the radio recently that it would happen earlier if he could get all car manufacturers to change the speed dials earlier but that it would definitely happen by year end. The tender for sign manufacture was issued many months ago and suggested the new signs would all have to be ready by end August.

Anyway, they will have to do it soon for safety reasons. Has anyone else noticed how many speed signs have fading ink? For example all the 30mph signs on the Galway ring road are only white now as the red outer rings have faded to nothing. I can only guess they are not replacing or repainiting them 'cos they are waiting for the shiny new 40kph signs instead....

(Historical note - I'm told the Dept Environment intended to perform this changeover in the '80s once the distance sings had beeen switched to KMs but it was vetoed by the Dept Finance on the basis that it would be too expensive)

Yoda · 04-08-2004 12:32pm

Has the design of the signs been given? I think it would be important for them to state explicitly that the number refers to km/h.

Your historical note is unsurprising.

Victor · 04-08-2004 12:43pm

Yoda wrote:

Has the design of the signs been given? I think it would be important for them to state explicitly that the number refers to km/h.

If they go for the French design, it has the "km/h"(?) included.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 12:50pm

Is there any way of finding out what they have chosen, I wonder. Do they put these out for public comment or anything? (I remember the Dublin road signage debacle.)

sliabh · 04-08-2004 1:03pm

Victor wrote:

If they go for the French design, it has the "km/h"(?) included.

I think the red border signs are to go, to be replaced by black and white ones.

I was travelling to Donegal last weekend and the silliness of the current situation was apparent. Crossing the border you go from speeds and distance in miles to speeds in miles and then distance in Km. Consistency will be good. But I did notice that the signs on the Irish side made an effort (especially newar the border) to remind people that the distance units are km. No such concession is made in the North. Something that might possible have to change?

Hagar · 04-08-2004 1:13pm

sliabh wrote:

No such concession is made in the North.

When was the last time anyone in the North conceded anything?

On a related note, has anyone looked at the new "no overtaking" signs. The signs are quite detailed. If you look carefully the headlights are visible but the driver is on the wrong side. Mr Brennan must have bought them cheap from a continental supplier.

Victor · 04-08-2004 4:49pm

Hagar wrote:

On a related note, has anyone looked at the new "no overtaking" signs. The signs are quite detailed. If you look carefully the headlights are visible but the driver is on the wrong side. Mr Brennan must have bought them cheap from a continental supplier.

It's to stop people over-taking on the left aswell.

vinnyfitz · 04-08-2004 5:19pm

I see speculation in the Irish Times motoring section today that implementation of KM/hour signage may be delayed till early 2005. (Report there says the privatisation of speed cameras is apparently subject to the revision of speed limits.)

BrianD · 04-08-2004 5:49pm

For the most part you can get away with over stickering the existing dials. Provided of course you know exactly what spec they have.

Not so easy apparently because of the parralax effect. Most cars have angled perspex in front of the instrument cluster so the sticker approach may give false speed indications. The dashboard would have to be dismantled and the sticker applied directly to the guage increasing the cost.

I don't think a dual-sign changeover will be required. Just state you changeover day and promote it adequately - any speed signs that aren't changed can be treated as KM so a driver can never be caught speeding!

PBC_1966 · 04-08-2004 6:25pm

Yoda wrote:

Nations often have bureaus of standards, and according to legislation, it is perfectly reasonable for a government to set mandatory specifications for the units of measure which it considers to be legal for transactions.

For official transactions or purposes, maybe. But if two individuals are happy to use some other agreed unit beteen themselves, it's none of the government's business, except insofar as to prevent fraud by short measures.

Metric units have been legally recognized in the U.K. for over a century anyway, and thus acceptable for transactions from the government's point of view. Presumably the legality of metric was retained in Ireland after the formation of the Irish Free State. What we in Britain are objecting to is the outlawing of continued use of English/Imperial units.

seamus wrote:

Changing to the metric system is imposing a change upon the nation, but at every avenue, choice is still left open - even if the country switches to metric, people can still use imperial

If that's true in Ireland, then good. But in Britain people are not still free to use Imperial -- The government has stated so and backed up that assertion with threats and prosecutions of those who continue to do so. We're also under the threat that by 2010 the EU will make it illegal to even include Imperial equivalents on packaging. So where's the freedom of choice?

But I don't want to hijack the subject at hand.....

Victor wrote:

If they go for the French design, it has the "km/h"(?) included.

French speed limit signs are just the number inside the normal European red circle. There's no "km/h" displayed on them.

Maybe the Irish authorities will use the same design of signs but add a "km/h" tag under the number, similar to way in which the new distance signs added "km" to them.

sliabh wrote:

I think the red border signs are to go, to be replaced by black and white ones.

Do you mean like American-style speed limit signs? That would be nice. U.S. signage is much more logical and consistent than European, and you already have the yellow diamond warning signs in Ireland.

Yoda · 04-08-2004 6:37pm

PBC,

Having the "choice" between two different systems of measurement doesn't seem to me to be all it's cracked up to be, particularly when one is simple and logical and used everywhere else in the world. The people who live in Britain and Ireland are intelligent, adaptable people, and I am sure that with a little effort they can all learn to use the metric system.

You could embrace a sensible and inevitable change, and help to bring it about, or you could whine about it and dig your heels and keep life difficult for everyone. I guess it's your choice.

seamus · 04-08-2004 8:25pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

If that's true in Ireland, then good. But in Britain people are not still free to use Imperial -- The government has stated so and backed up that assertion with threats and prosecutions of those who continue to do so. We're also under the threat that by 2010 the EU will make it illegal to even include Imperial equivalents on packaging. So where's the freedom of choice?

In your head. If imperial means that much to you, you carry around a pocket calculator, or the obligatory converter that will no doubt be issued to everyone before the change. If you wish to continue your business in imperial, then you are free to do so, but you must put it in metric for everyone else. There your freedom of choice.

It's exactly like switching currency to the decimal system. I suppose that was a ridiculous change, and even worse that shops aren't allowed put up prices in halfpennies and shillings? *shudder*

fjon · 05-08-2004 10:05am

BrianD wrote:

I don't think a dual-sign changeover will be required. Just state you changeover day and promote it adequately - any speed signs that aren't changed can be treated as KM so a driver can never be caught speeding!

30 KMpH? Ugh!

sliabh · 05-08-2004 10:19am

fwk wrote:

30 KMpH? Ugh!

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones.

What I would like to see then is increased (usually double) penalty points for special areas like schools, construction zones and going really fast over the limit, say 30mph/48kmph. I know they do it in other countries but I just can't remember where.

sliabh · 05-08-2004 10:24am

BrianD wrote:

Not so easy apparently because of the parralax effect. Most cars have angled perspex in front of the instrument cluster so the sticker approach may give false speed indications. The dashboard would have to be dismantled and the sticker applied directly to the guage increasing the cost.
!

I did say sticker the dial rather than the display :-)

I have revently thought of getting my spedo and trip unit replaced with a metric one (the easiest way to go metric being not to have to ever think about miles). Does anyone know how much that would be likely to cost?

PBC_1966 · 06-08-2004 8:48pm

seamus wrote:

If you wish to continue your business in imperial, then you are free to do so, but you must put it in metric for everyone else

Maybe you don't realize that according to our government, we are not free to continue our business in Imperial. That's the whole point. They have made it a criminal offense to use Imperial measures in shops.

The key is in your own words: "Your business." If a buyer wants to buy a pound of apples from a trader, and the trader wants to sell him a pound of apples, then you've hit the nail on the head. It is their business -- Not yours, not mine, and certainly not the government's.

It's exactly like switching currency to the decimal system. I suppose that was a ridiculous change, and even worse that shops aren't allowed put up prices in halfpennies and shillings? *shudder*

So far as I'm aware there's no law preventing shops from still quoting prices in LSD should they so wish. Or they can price in U.S. dollars, Swiss francs, euros, or anything else they care to use.

PBC_1966 · 06-08-2004 8:52pm

sliabh wrote:

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones

We've had 20 mph zones being introduced in Britain over the last couple of years, generally in crowded town streets, some residential areas, and a few villages.

In typical British fashion though, the authorities have made a confusing mess of the signs. IN many cases they use "special" signs with "20 mph zone" on them, then a gray crossed-out version at the end of the 20 zone.

Why not just a regular sign with 20 on it at the beginning and one with 30 or whatever the speed needs to be at the end? :rolleyes:

John R · 06-08-2004 9:01pm

ATM a display with shiny screw heads indicates there is a good chance a clocker has been at it, if people start getting them taken apart for KmH stickers to be put in it will make it even harder to spot the fake mileages.

seamus · 07-08-2004 4:37pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

The key is in your own words: "Your business." If a buyer wants to buy a pound of apples from a trader, and the trader wants to sell him a pound of apples, then you've hit the nail on the head. It is their business -- Not yours, not mine, and certainly not the government's.

Nope, and they are still free to carry their transaction like that, that's what I'm trying to get across to you. If someone says "Give me a pound of apples please", the shopkeeper is still free to weigh out a pound of apples and charge for them. Non-display of imperial measurements is a necessary step to take in Britain I believe, as there tends to be groups of harcore fanatics in that country who actively resist and protest the slightest progress whatsoever. These people would refuse to show metric, if they were allowed, negating the whole point of the changeover.

So far as I'm aware there's no law preventing shops from still quoting prices in LSD should they so wish. Or they can price in U.S. dollars, Swiss francs, euros, or anything else they care to use.

But they wouldn't, because no-one would care. In Ireland, shops are obliged to display the euro price and euro price per kilo for all packaged goods. If they weren't, you would have had the usual naysayer shopkeepers and publicans refusing to display their prices in euro at the time of the changeover.

Yoda · 08-08-2004 3:21pm

sliabh wrote:

Well they are supposed to be reviewing the limits as part of the change over and 30kmph (18mph) is proposed for school zones.

In the States, I think its 15mph in a school zone, 25mph in a residential zone, 35mph generally in town, 45mph on larger roads out of town, and then 55mph-75mph depending what kind of highway and where it is.

Yoda · 08-08-2004 3:26pm

PBC_1966 wrote:

Maybe you don't realize that according to our government, we are not free to continue our business in Imperial. That's the whole point. They have made it a criminal offense to use Imperial measures in shops.

Yeah, well, you are not free to resolve private dispute by duelling, either, which I am sure is something that people bitched about when your government took away their natural right to run one another through with sabres.

Metrification's a fact. Accept it, adopt it, learn it, encourage it. Or whine about it until your deathbed. Sheesh.

PBC_1966 · 09-08-2004 9:57am

seamus wrote:

Nope, and they are still free to carry their transaction like that, that's what I'm trying to get across to you. If someone says "Give me a pound of apples please", the shopkeeper is still free to weigh out a pound of apples and charge for them.

From http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/aboutus.htm :

My involvement began on 9th March, 2000 when I was served with a ' Notice of Seizure', by Mr.R.Reading, a local Trading Standards Officer who informed me that if my imperial scales were not converted to metric or replaced within 28 days then they would be liable to seizure or forfeiture, and I could be fined and/or face criminal penalties.

But on 4th July, two Trading Standards Officers, Mr. Fallon and Mr. Reading, accompanied by TWO POLICE OFFICERS, marched into Steven Thoburn's shop at The Green, Southwick, Sunderland, and seized three sets of imperial scales.

He was warned that if he objected he would be arrested.

Do you still claim that British shopkeepers are free to continue using Imperial measures?

PBC_1966 · 09-08-2004 10:05am

Yoda wrote:

In the States, I think its 15mph in a school zone, 25mph in a residential zone, 35mph generally in town, 45mph on larger roads out of town, and then 55mph-75mph depending what kind of highway and where it is.

There are variations as the limits are set by each individual jurisdiction, but that's a pretty fair assessment.

School zones often have a sign posted with amber lights "15 mph when flashing" or something similar, then the prevailing 25 or 30 limit applies at other times. Some places it's just a sign which says the lower limit applies during certain hours on school days.

Since the removal of the national 55 limit most states have gradually raised the open highway limits on interstates and other main highways. 75 is most common in the west, with 65 or 70 in many other areas.

Montana now has no explicitly assigned open-highway limit, but has reverted to their old definition of "Reasonable & prudent."

Metric Speed Signs

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