Scottish Independence yea or nay

Gerry T · 18-09-2014 12:34pm

any idea when there might be some feedback from the polling stations to say what trends might be happening ?

eeepaulo · 18-09-2014 12:41pm

Gerry T wrote: »

any idea when there might be some feedback from the polling stations to say what trends might be happening ?

Ive been reading that there are no exit polls

Gerry T · 18-09-2014 12:44pm

eeepaulo wrote: »

Ive been reading that there are no exit polls

Prob a ban on feedback in case it sways voters

Sam Russell · 18-09-2014 12:48pm

alastair wrote: »

No it didn't. We had fifty years of parity with sterling (without the consent of the UK - just as Scotland could opt for - EU membership allowing), and the only real period of vulnerability was that of high inflation in the 70's, following on from the oil crisis. Ireland wasn't alone in that regard; many European countries without any link to sterling had similar problems. It's also worth pointing out that Ireland had a similar spell of high inflation once it entered the EMS and split from parity with sterling.

That's not to say that sterling parity was/is the best option for Ireland or Scotland, but it certainly didn't threaten Ireland with bankruptcy, when we opted to go that route.

Ireland had a period of desperate shortage of liquidity following independence as the Irish Banks refused to lend them any money. Civil Servants had to endure no heating in their offices, and Government spending was heavily restricted. It was not until the 1950s that things improved. The economic war was driven by the British Government as a reprisal for the Irish Governments demand that the Annuities for land purchase belonged to them and were not payable to Whitehall.

The consent to the Irish use of the GBP was begrudging at its best.

I think that the BofE might well decide on Monday that following a YES vote, it was a little hasty and will readily agree to some form of consent to stabilise the markets.

eeepaulo · 18-09-2014 12:49pm

Gerry T wrote: »

Prob a ban on feedback in case it sways voters

I might be wrong, but thats what i read.

They do it in everything else, but i guess the only people it benefits really is the 24 hour media, gives them something to talk about.

Actually though maybe they dont want the market and sterling going up and down like a yo yo.

Jelle1880 · 18-09-2014 1:25pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

It sounds like you just want to find negativity in everything the yes side says...

I'll do you one better: Behind the 'We will build a better Scotland' there is a lot of not-so-hidden negativity in a portion of the Yes voters, in my opinion.
Mainly aimed at 'them ****ing English bastards' or 'Team Westminster'.

comongethappy · 18-09-2014 1:28pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I'll do you one better: Behind the 'We will build a better Scotland' there is a lot of not-so-hidden negativity in a portion of the Yes voters, in my opinion.
Mainly aimed at 'them ****ing English bastards' or 'Team Westminster'.

Whatever negativity there may be amongst activists, it is nothing compared to the avalanche of abuse, negative/false conjecture & hostility coming Fleet Street & BBC broadcasting house.

Bobeagleburger · 18-09-2014 1:29pm

Andy Murray going with the Yes side saying the negativity from the No side swayed his decision.

Groups like the Orange Order probably did more harm than good for No

Jelle1880 · 18-09-2014 1:34pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Whatever negativity there may be amongst, it is nothing compared to the avalanche of abuse, negative conjecture & hostility coming Fleet Street & BBC broadcasting house.

That victim mentality of 'woe unto us, they all hate us and want to keep us down' is pretty sad and has no basis in real life.

edit: Murray can't even vote :pac:
Which imo is just ridiculous, Scots outside of the country should be totally eligible to vote, just like for a normal election.

karma_ · 18-09-2014 1:40pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That victim mentality of 'woe unto us, they all hate us and want to keep us down' is pretty sad and has no basis in real life.

edit: Murray can't even vote :pac:
Which imo is just ridiculous, Scots outside of the country should be totally eligible to vote, just like for a normal election.

Why should they? Why should they have a say in the administration of a country they no longer reside? That's not how democracy is supposed to work.

Jelle1880 · 18-09-2014 1:41pm

karma_ wrote: »

Why should they? Why should they have a say in the administration of a country they no longer reside? That's not how democracy is supposed to work.

I haven't lived in Belgium for almost 6 years, yet I can still vote and I do so.

As long as you are a national of a country you should be able to vote, wherever you live.
Especially for something of a magnitude like this.

n-dawg · 18-09-2014 1:49pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I haven't lived in Belgium for almost 6 years, yet I can still vote and I do so.

As long as you are a national of a country you should be able to vote, wherever you live.
Especially for something of a magnitude like this.

As an Irish citizen living in Glasgow, I can't vote in Irish referendums or elections. I see this as being perfectly fair, the people who live in the country should be the ones who decide how it is run.

Jelle1880 · 18-09-2014 2:01pm

n-dawg wrote: »

As an Irish citizen living in Glasgow, I can't vote in Irish referendums or elections. I see this as being perfectly fair, the people who live in the country should be the ones who decide how it is run.

That's pretty odd, normally you can always vote at your embassy or give someone who lives in the country a proxy vote, unless you've given up your residency in Ireland.

Unless Ireland doesn't do that, which is weird.

n-dawg · 18-09-2014 2:04pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's pretty odd, normally you can always vote at your embassy or give someone who lives in the country a proxy vote, unless you've given up your residency in Ireland.

Unless Ireland doesn't do that, which is weird.

There is no vote for Irish emigrants. I'm not sure if were the only ones that do it.

tbradman · 18-09-2014 2:04pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I haven't lived in Belgium for almost 6 years, yet I can still vote and I do so.

As long as you are a national of a country you should be able to vote, wherever you live.
Especially for something of a magnitude like this.

n-dawg wrote: »

As an Irish citizen living in Glasgow, I can't vote in Irish referendums or elections. I see this as being perfectly fair, the people who live in the country should be the ones who decide how it is run.

Actually quite a lot of European countries allow their expats to vote, Ireland is more of an exception than a rule, see:

globalirish.ie/issues/emigrant-voting/ (sorry I'm still on training wheels, you need to add the www bit yourself).

I do find it odd that Scotland allows non-nationals a vote in a referendum but excludes nationals who are resident over-seas or currently living in England.

Speaking from a personal point of view as an Irish person now living in Australia, I'm not sure if I really want to vote in any Irish election/referendums. The reason being that I intend never to return to Ireland (other than to visit relatives), so feel I should not decide what government or constitution changes take place.

Bluefoam · 18-09-2014 2:11pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's pretty odd, normally you can always vote at your embassy or give someone who lives in the country a proxy vote, unless you've given up your residency in Ireland.

Unless Ireland doesn't do that, which is weird.

Irish living abroad do not get a vote

OneColdHand · 18-09-2014 2:15pm

tbradman wrote: »

I do find it odd that Scotland allows non-nationals a vote in a referendum but excludes nationals who are resident over-seas or currently living in England.

Speaking from a personal point of view as an Irish person now living in Australia, I'm not sure if I really want to vote in any Irish election/referendums. The reason being that I intend never to return to Ireland (other than to visit relatives), so feel I should not decide what government or constitution changes take place.

Aren't you're contradicting yourself here??

bill66 · 18-09-2014 2:26pm

The reason "Scottish nationals" living abroad can not vote, is that there is no such thing as a "scottish national". Until tomorrow........(may not actually happen)

bill66 · 18-09-2014 2:27pm

The reason "Scottish nationals" living abroad can not vote, is that there is no such thing as a "Scottish national". Until tomorrow........(may not actually happen)

n-dawg · 18-09-2014 2:29pm

bill66 wrote: »

The reason "Scottish nationals" living abroad can not vote, is that there is no such thing as a "Scottish national". Until tomorrow........(may not actually happen)

Very good point :-P

Fratton Fred · 18-09-2014 2:38pm

bill66 wrote: »

The reason "Scottish nationals" living abroad can not vote, is that there is no such thing as a "scottish national". Until tomorrow........(may not actually happen)

Yet somehow they manage to field international football and rugby teams.

It isn't that hard to decide who is and who isn't Scottish. They'll be dishing out passports if the yes vote passes. How will they do that, or will the 800,000 Scots living elsewhere in the UK suddenly not be Scottish any more?

At least that solves the Andy Murray dilemma.

bill66 · 18-09-2014 2:43pm

The sports teams are a relic of Empire sports. There are still no "Scottish Nationals".

tayto lover · 18-09-2014 2:43pm

If the Scots vote No to running their own country they are a cowardly people in my view. Many countries (inc Scotland of old) fought for the right to run their own affairs.
If it's a No they can feck off with their Braveheart and Flower of Scotland s*1t in future.

tbradman · 18-09-2014 2:45pm

OneColdHand wrote: »

Aren't you're contradicting yourself here??

Nope, not at all. Ireland is generally at odds with most European nations by not allowing expats to vote. That's just a fact.

As for me personally, I don't really wish to vote on Irish affairs as I am never coming back to Ireland. However many other Irish expats fell differently and have been arguing for many years to allow Irish citizens to vote while abroad. Also many Irish expats will return to Ireland and would like a say in the Ireland they will be returning to, some Irish people only leave Ireland for 1 - 10 years to make some money or gain new language experience. But once out of they country that they intend to return to, they are cut off from all decision making for their own future.

Fratton Fred · 18-09-2014 3:05pm

bill66 wrote: »

The sports teams are a relic of Empire sports. There are still no "Scottish Nationals".

Strange post.

They are by far the two most popular sports in the British Isles.

bill66 · 18-09-2014 3:34pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Strange post.

They are by far the two most popular sports in the British Isles.

Even stranger post... You have clearly not understood, you must be getting tired with your unrelenting postings on all things Scotland.
Please point out where I said they are not popular. The point I was making is that there are no "Scottish Nationals" despite the football teams

gallag · 18-09-2014 3:41pm

Looking forward to waking tomorrow and seeing our Scottish brothers and sisters reaffirmed commitment to the world's most successful union. gentlemen, long live the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland! !

Fratton Fred · 18-09-2014 3:53pm

bill66 wrote: »

Even stranger post... You have clearly not understood, you must be getting tired with your unrelenting postings on all things Scotland.
Please point out where I said they are not popular. The point I was making is that there are no "Scottish Nationals" despite the football teams

It was the relic of empire comment that threw me.

The UK does not distinguish in its citizenship, true, but my point is that if the two most popular sports in the British Isles can do it, then it can be done.

Godge · 18-09-2014 4:02pm

tbradman wrote: »

Nope, not at all. Ireland is generally at odds with most European nations by not allowing expats to vote. That's just a fact.

As for me personally, I don't really wish to vote on Irish affairs as I am never coming back to Ireland. However many other Irish expats fell differently and have been arguing for many years to allow Irish citizens to vote while abroad. Also many Irish expats will return to Ireland and would like a say in the Ireland they will be returning to, some Irish people only leave Ireland for 1 - 10 years to make some money or gain new language experience. But once out of they country that they intend to return to, they are cut off from all decision making for their own future.

I don't have a lot of time for those expats.

They spend their childhood in Ireland being subsidised at school and college in Ireland by the Irish taxpayer.

They spend their working years abroad paying taxes to another country.

They want to come home in retirement and have their free travel, medical card, non-contributory pension and household benefits subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

All while contributing nothing and now they want a vote while away as well. Some cheek.

Voting should only be open to those tax-resident in Ireland, doesn't matter if your income is too low to pay tax i.e. on social welfare, you can still vote as you are still tax resident.

The likes of Bono and Denis O'Brien who skive off abroad half the year and don't pay taxes as a result shouldn't get a vote either.

Nodin · 18-09-2014 4:19pm

I'm expecting a "nae", but am surprised its been as close as it has.

tbradman · 18-09-2014 4:40pm

Godge wrote: »

I don't have a lot of time for those expats.

They spend their childhood in Ireland being subsidised at school and college in Ireland by the Irish taxpayer.

They spend their working years abroad paying taxes to another country.

They want to come home in retirement and have their free travel, medical card, non-contributory pension and household benefits subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

All while contributing nothing and now they want a vote while away as well. Some cheek.

Voting should only be open to those tax-resident in Ireland, doesn't matter if your income is too low to pay tax i.e. on social welfare, you can still vote as you are still tax resident.

The likes of Bono and Denis O'Brien who skive off abroad half the year and don't pay taxes as a result shouldn't get a vote either.

Thats a very petty and narrow minded concept of citizenship. You're only a citizen while you're in Ireland, once you jet away for a year or two you have no rights as an Irish person?

Also note that in my post I did say that many Irish people leave Ireland for a short period of time (e.g. 1-10years). I've known a few people to finish school, then go to a University in the UK and work for a few years in the UK before returning to Ireland with knowledge and skills that enriched Ireland. I know lots of people who went to European countries to live for a couple of years and enhance their language skills and had a cousin in Japan for about 8 years. By your concept of citizenship, they were not Irish citizens and no rights as such during that period, irrespective of what it said on their passport.

What about Irish people on the dole, they don't pay tax or contribute to society, yet they still get to vote... I worked and paid taxes for 24years in Ireland before leaving for Oz. I'm guessing that Bono and O'Brien paid more tax than you ever will and created more jobs for Irish people than you as well.

Hopefully if the Scots do vote Yes, they won't take such a narrow view of what it means to be a Scottish citizen.

Godge · 18-09-2014 4:48pm

tbradman wrote: »

Thats a very petty and narrow minded concept of citizenship. You're only a citizen while you're in Ireland, once you jet away for a year or two you have no rights as an Irish person?

Also note that in my post I did say that many Irish people leave Ireland for a short period of time (e.g. 1-10years). I've known a few people to finish school, then go to a University in the UK and work for a few years in the UK before returning to Ireland with knowledge and skills that enriched Ireland. I know lots of people who went to European countries to live for a couple of years and enhance their language skills and had a cousin in Japan for about 8 years. By your concept of citizenship, they were not Irish citizens and no rights as such during that period, irrespective of what it said on their passport.

What about Irish people on the dole, they don't pay tax or contribute to society, yet they still get to vote... I worked and paid taxes for 24years in Ireland before leaving for Oz. I'm guessing that Bono and O'Brien paid more tax than you ever will and created more jobs for Irish people than you as well.

Hopefully if the Scots do vote Yes, they won't take such a narrow view of what it means to be a Scottish citizen.

You are missing the point.

They are citizens and I am happy that they remain citizens. They should have all the rights that citizens have except the right to vote.

Citizenship does not equal having a right to decide on taxation levels and public spending of a country that you are not living in nor contributing to.

I covered Irish people on the dole, they are tax resident here and fully entitled to vote.

Stop confusing the issue.

alastair · 18-09-2014 5:03pm

Godge wrote: »

The likes of Bono and Denis O'Brien who skive off abroad half the year and don't pay taxes as a result shouldn't get a vote either.

Bono, for all his sins, is tax resident here. He's not skiving off abroad to avoid paying taxes. The money resting in the Dutch Antilles has nothing to do with Bono's residency status.

n-dawg · 18-09-2014 5:05pm

More no intimidation for you Jelle

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/former-merseyside-council-leader-marie-7795001

tbradman · 18-09-2014 5:14pm

Godge wrote: »

You are missing the point.

They are citizens and I am happy that they remain citizens. They should have all the rights that citizens have except the right to vote.

Citizenship does not equal having a right to decide on taxation levels and public spending of a country that you are not living in nor contributing to.

I covered Irish people on the dole, they are tax resident here and fully entitled to vote.

Stop confusing the issue.

So once they step on a plane you strip away some of their rights? They keep all the rights of a citizen except one of the most important, the right to vote.

Remember, said citizens may return to Ireland therefore will be subject to all legislation, but are not allowed to vote for the legislators who create the legislation? Not a problem for most European countries, they just give all citizens a vote, inside or outside the country.

You made the distinction of a non-resident not paying tax, therefore should not have a right to vote, so you didn't actually cover people on the dole, who are resident, but not tax payers. Stating they are tax resident, but not tax payers, seems a rather Jesuitical interpretation of valid citizenship.

I'm not confusing the issue, I'm pointing out your inconsistent and confusing definition of what the rights of a citizen are.

But its now after midnight here in Oz, so I'm off to bed, feel free to continue being inconsistent.

Jelle1880 · 18-09-2014 5:16pm

n-dawg wrote: »

More no intimidation for you Jelle

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/former-merseyside-council-leader-marie-7795001

And a 44 year old man was arrested in Clydebank, a Yes voter.

What's your point ? I already said some are behaving like idiots on both sides.

Godge · 18-09-2014 5:37pm

tbradman wrote: »

You made the distinction of a non-resident not paying tax, therefore should not have a right to vote, so you didn't actually cover people on the dole, who are resident, but not tax payers. Stating they are tax resident, but not tax payers, seems a rather Jesuitical interpretation of valid citizenship.

I'm not confusing the issue, I'm pointing out your inconsistent and confusing definition of what the rights of a citizen are.

B.

Go back and read my original post and understand what was actually said. At no stage did I say people on the dole couldn't vote. I said the opposite. You misinterpreted my post.

Godge wrote: »

Voting should only be open to those tax-resident in Ireland, doesn't matter if your income is too low to pay tax i.e. on social welfare, you can still vote as you are still tax resident.
.

Gerry T · 18-09-2014 5:40pm

Godge wrote: »

Go back and read my original post and understand what was actually said. At no stage did I say people on the dole couldn't vote. I said the opposite. You misinterpreted my post.

I will get shot for this...but here we go...people shouldn't have a vote unless they have some idea about the subject matter. In my world when you get to the polling booth your faced with 3 questions, if you get two right you can vote, if not you do the walk of shame. Very simple questions about the subject at hand.

Leroy42 · 18-09-2014 5:50pm

Gerry T wrote: »

3 Very simple questions about the subject at hand.

1.Do you want X to be in charge?

2.If you said no do you want to reconsider?

3.Do you know that we know where you live?

Sam Russell · 18-09-2014 5:59pm

Gerry T wrote: »

I will get shot for this...but here we go...people shouldn't have a vote unless they have some idea about the subject matter. In my world when you get to the polling booth your faced with 3 questions, if you get two right you can vote, if not you do the walk of shame. Very simple questions about the subject at hand.

There are as many stupid people who agree with the proposition as do not agree with it, and there are as many experts in the same position. They cancel each other out.

Unfortunately we are in a time of the soundbite. The late Albert Reynolds like to get all his informat fed to him on a single page. Now politicians try to explain complex matters in twenty words, usually including the phrase 'I never interupted you, so do not interupt me!'. That was eight of their twenty words.

Gerry T · 18-09-2014 6:10pm

Honestly, you hear people "that feckin bin charge, I'm not paying...and the next referendum I'm voting NO, that will show them !!"

bpb101 · 18-09-2014 6:13pm

Gerry T wrote: »

I will get shot for this...but here we go...people shouldn't have a vote unless they have some idea about the subject matter. In my world when you get to the polling booth your faced with 3 questions, if you get two right you can vote, if not you do the walk of shame. Very simple questions about the subject at hand.

i can see where you are coming from. And in a perfect world , everybody should be informed. however it can never work. a large % of people who dont know about a subject will not vote. you can debate this till the cows come home but id say 99% of people are very well informed about the scots Independence referendum . That will reflect in the turnout.
there is a big thing here about fúcking up posters on every lampost for elections and referedums

could you possible imagine the amount of money wasted on posters if this referendum was here (not referring to irish views or status in the uk , but just the way posters are put up) There are rallys on and people canvising and all in all healthy debate on the subject matter(kinda)
sctoland should be really proud on how in a time where a lot of people are losing interest in politics and political party, The has been an undoubtable genuine interest in Scotland role in the uk and the world , results by 6am

bpb101 · 18-09-2014 6:52pm

the most bias video about Scottish Independence from ironically a newspaper called independent. watch the video , dont mind about the article its unrelated (unless you want to read it,)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/andy-murray-branded-irresponsible-for-revealing-extremely-illadvised--scottish-independence-view-9740707.html

if you do read the article ,even that is extremely bias , espiccaly all the vote no tweets compared to 3 defensive

Gerry T · 18-09-2014 6:54pm

bpb101 wrote: »

i can see where you are coming from. And in a perfect world , everybody should be informed. however it can never work. a large % of people who dont know about a subject will not vote. you can debate this till the cows come home but id say 99% of people are very well informed about the scots Independence referendum . That will reflect in the turnout.
there is a big thing here about fúcking up posters on every lampost for elections and referedums

could you possible imagine the amount of money wasted on posters if this referendum was here (not referring to irish views or status in the uk , but just the way posters are put up) There are rallys on and people canvising and all in all healthy debate on the subject matter(kinda)
sctoland should be really proud on how in a time where a lot of people are losing interest in politics and political party, The has been an undoubtable genuine interest in Scotland role in the uk and the world , results by 6am

Your point about posters is testament to what I said, tongue in cheek mind, I know it won't happen. I feel posters are a total insult to the electorate,what do they think putting up a stupid photo !! FFS. Put up a point about your manifest, something to get people onto your side of the debate. Edjits.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 18-09-2014 6:55pm

Just watching RTÉ news there and they mentioned it's 100 years to the day since the UK agreed to grant Ireland Home Rule. That's some coincidence.

feargale · 18-09-2014 7:24pm

Gerry T wrote: »

Next to leave is Wales and then N.I. so what do we call the non entity great britain, little britain ?

Well, I have read contributions both here and in the printed media from English people saying they want rid of the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish. Now, this could acquire legs. Next to be pushed out could be Cornish people and after that maybe Yorkshire could be shown a Harvey Smith. Then East Anglians, Cumbrians etc. are kind of suspect. You could be left with Middlesex, Essex, Sussex and Wessex. So the obvious name for what's left is Sex - London, the capital of Sex.

P.S. Nossex seems to have got lost somewhere, seems to have been a non-runner!

murphaph · 18-09-2014 7:30pm

Godge wrote: »

You are missing the point.

They are citizens and I am happy that they remain citizens. They should have all the rights that citizens have except the right to vote.

Citizenship does not equal having a right to decide on taxation levels and public spending of a country that you are not living in nor contributing to.

I covered Irish people on the dole, they are tax resident here and fully entitled to vote.

Stop confusing the issue.

So someone that goes off and works voluntarily for Goal or Trocaire or whatever for several years in Africa should lose the vote in their home country? Currently the view is so myopic that you even lose the vote if you happen to be on holiday during an election!

The incumbent government generally dislikes high turnout so even makes it as difficult as possible for people IN Ireland to vote. In Germany ALL elections are held on Sundays to ensure maximum opportunity to vote. The missus thinks it's amazing that Ireland holds elections on working days mid week and actually she's right...it's insane and no sitting government will change it as it generally works against their chances or re-election.

Frank Lee Midere · 18-09-2014 7:56pm

murphaph wrote: »

So someone that goes off and works voluntarily for Goal or Trocaire or whatever for several years in Africa should lose the vote in their home country? Currently the view is so myopic that you even lose the vote if you happen to be on holiday during an election!

The incumbent government generally dislikes high turnout so even makes it as difficult as possible for people IN Ireland to vote. In Germany ALL elections are held on Sundays to ensure maximum opportunity to vote. The missus thinks it's amazing that Ireland holds elections on working days mid week and actually she's right...it's insane and no sitting government will change it as it generally works against their chances or re-election.

You are right about the last part. As for the former representation should be a matter of residency.

AlanS181824 · 18-09-2014 8:44pm

We'll find out at about 8am tomorrow!

Hopefully Scotland will finally be free.

n-dawg · 18-09-2014 8:47pm

Right that's me voted.... Looked like about 75% had voted at my station, just over an hour left. Reportedly some stations have closed because they have reached 100% turnout.

Scottish Independence yea or nay

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