Rules query-wrong ball played

johnjoe1966 · 17-09-2014 9:31pm #1

Two players both play the wrong ball (on putting green). They only realise after they they complete the hole. They query the rule when handing in the card and are told no penalty applies. One goes on to win the captains prize-no remarks passed.

I would have thought anyone with basic knowledge of the rules would have recorded a '0' on the hole without having to ask the question. This person would have represented his club at every level in competitions and generally take on to be a bit of an expert.

Q1: Am I that they should have recorded a '0'?

Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?

Q3: Is this not typical double standards (guy on a different occasions had prize taken off him for recording wrong score but was not on committee)

sodbuster77 · 17-09-2014 9:37pm

If they both played the wrong ball and walked off the course then surely it should count as two NR's (if strokes comp).The committee can't just change the rules of golf!

johnjoe1966 · 17-09-2014 9:53pm

Problem with golf is that a lot of people don't know the rules and make honest mistakes while some others apply the rules depending if they feel it is 'fair' and some others just cheat while the rest try not to think about it and are happy to play by the rules. I'm at the stage where I play few competitions (I definitely won't enter if I know certain individuals are playing as it is a waste of time) -I prefer to play with a few mates for a couple of euro or in a charity classic with mickey mouse prizes where cheaters tend to stay clear off.

PARlance · 17-09-2014 10:13pm

Nothing will change if you're just posting on the net and don't bring it up at your club.
Have you mentioned this at all?

SaveOurLyric · 17-09-2014 10:26pm

johnjoe1966 wrote: »

Q1: Am I that they should have recorded a '0'?

Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?

Q3: Is this not typical double standards (guy on a different occasions had prize taken off him for recording wrong score but was not on committee)

1) Yes.
2) No. The result stands because the commttee member gave the wrong info and the competition was closed.
3) Why ? What is the other standard ?

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 8:48am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

1) Yes.
2) No. The result stands because the commttee member gave the wrong info and the competition was closed.
3) Why ? What is the other standard ?

I don't think the committee member can over turn a rule of golf so assume DQ would stand?

Anatom · 18-09-2014 10:03am

This happened to me very recently in a society outing and it has puzzled me since...

Playing in a three-ball stableford competition on a links course, having a great day out. Teeing off on the 18th, I sliced my drive off to the right into very heavy rough, and take a provisional which I gently stroke down the middle of the fairway, not too far behind my two playing partners...

I look for my first ball, couldn't find it and declare it gone etc. etc., and follow the two lads up the fairway to where my second ball should be.

One of the lads is standing over a ball. I shouted to him from behind that I thought that that was mine, as I hadn't hit my second tee shot very hard and it was unlikely I'd have out driven his own tee shot.

He calls out the name of a ball, which I didn't recognise as mine (I'd just dug a second ball out of the bag on the tee-box and sent it away) and he proceeded to play it, sending it up into a bunker in the middle of the fairway.

I walk up to the next ball and don't recognise it as mine. I say it to my friend and he realises that its actually his, and what he'd just hit was my provisional ball...

The third guy, who has a much lower handicap and would know the rules better than the two of us, says that I should go back to where my friend hit my ball from and hit from there (my fourth now) - which I do. I send a cracker up to just short of the green (its a par-5) and just miss the up and down for a seven (and a point).

My friend plays out the hole with my ball from the bunker and scratches the hole.

My question is this - what penalty should have applied to (a) him or (b) me? Bear in mind that this was a stableford competition and a friendly society outing. Neither of us were in the running for a prize. But if it had been strokes / more serious competition??

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 10:06am

^
No penalty to you, you do as described (or get your real ball if it wont unduly delay play)
He gets a DQ in strokes as he has to go back and reply his shot under penalty.
In S'ford it would just be a blank.

PARlance · 18-09-2014 10:46am

Also, he should have just hit his correct ball, with a 2 stroke penalty, instead of continuing to play the wrong ball.

Edit: and if it was match play he would automatically lose the hole for hitting the wrong ball.

slave1 · 18-09-2014 10:53am

Anatom wrote: »

...The third guy, who has a much lower handicap and would know the rules better than the two of us...

After years in this game I believe this is a complete myth i.e. the assumption that a lower handicap player knows the rules better, I've been astounded with the rules interpretation of 4/5/6 handicap players at times.

Miley Byrne · 18-09-2014 10:54am

Anatom wrote: »

This happened to me very recently in a society outing and it has puzzled me since...

Playing in a three-ball stableford competition on a links course, having a great day out. Teeing off on the 18th, I sliced my drive off to the right into very heavy rough, and take a provisional which I gently stroke down the middle of the fairway, not too far behind my two playing partners...

I look for my first ball, couldn't find it and declare it gone etc. etc., and follow the two lads up the fairway to where my second ball should be.

One of the lads is standing over a ball. I shouted to him from behind that I thought that that was mine, as I hadn't hit my second tee shot very hard and it was unlikely I'd have out driven his own tee shot.

He calls out the name of a ball, which I didn't recognise as mine (I'd just dug a second ball out of the bag on the tee-box and sent it away) and he proceeded to play it, sending it up into a bunker in the middle of the fairway.

I walk up to the next ball and don't recognise it as mine. I say it to my friend and he realises that its actually his, and what he'd just hit was my provisional ball...

The third guy, who has a much lower handicap and would know the rules better than the two of us, says that I should go back to where my friend hit my ball from and hit from there (my fourth now) - which I do. I send a cracker up to just short of the green (its a par-5) and just miss the up and down for a seven (and a point).

My friend plays out the hole with my ball from the bunker and scratches the hole.

My question is this - what penalty should have applied to (a) him or (b) me? Bear in mind that this was a stableford competition and a friendly society outing. Neither of us were in the running for a prize. But if it had been strokes / more serious competition??

If someone was to be a right wnaker about it I'd say they could claim your 2nd ball was lost because you failed to identify it when asked

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 1:05pm

denisoc16 wrote: »

If someone was to be a right wnaker about it I'd say they could claim your 2nd ball was lost because you failed to identify it when asked

You don't have to identify it when asked, you just need to be able to identify it before you play it.
So it would be a problem if two balls are left on the fairway and you don't know which is yours.

SaveOurLyric · 18-09-2014 1:18pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't think the committee member can over turn a rule of golf so assume DQ would stand?

You are correct. But the committee member didnt change a rule of golf. They gave a golf ruling on a query. And they are the arbiter on queries (regardless of whether they gave the correct answer or not) and so the result of a closed competition then stands. The committee rather then the rules is the higher power in this case, with the committee the implementer of the rules. Get a better committee is probably the real answer.

Miley Byrne · 18-09-2014 1:47pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You don't have to identify it when asked, you just need to be able to identify it before you play it.
So it would be a problem if two balls are left on the fairway and you don't know which is yours.

Well he couldn't tell if it was his ball because he had "just dug a second ball out of the bag on the tee-box and sent it away"

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 1:49pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

You are correct. But the committee member didnt change a rule of golf. They gave a golf ruling on a query. And they are the arbiter on queries (regardless of whether they gave the correct answer or not) and so the result of a closed competition then stands. The committee rather then the rules is the higher power in this case, with the committee the implementer of the rules. Get a better committee is probably the real answer.

Signing for an incorrect score when advised by "official" would still result in 2 shot penalty being applied, a-la Mr Woods.

I didnt see it being mentioned that the comp was closed though?

BraveDonut · 18-09-2014 2:02pm

You are required to declare that the ball you are hitting from the tee is a provisional and identify it to your playing partners. This means that you, and your playing partners, can identify it for your next shot.
A lot of players "just dig a ball out of the bag" and hit it - making this your 3rd regardless of whether or not you find your first

PARlance · 18-09-2014 2:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Signing for an incorrect score when advised by "official" would still result in 2 shot penalty being applied, a-la Mr Woods.

I didnt see it being mentioned that the comp was closed though?

Unless clubs are holding their captains day mid week, I think it's safe enough to assume it was closed.

OP also stated that the guy in question won the event. It'd be usual to announce a winner before closing the comp?

PARlance · 18-09-2014 2:17pm

BraveDonut wrote: »

You are required to declare that the ball you are hitting from the tee is a provisional and identify it to your playing partners. This means that you, and your playing partners, can identify it for your next shot.
A lot of players "just dig a ball out of the bag" and hit it - making this your 3rd regardless of whether or not you find your first

You don't have to tell your playing partners what ball (type, number, distinguishing mark etc) you are hitting. It's good etiquette, but not a rule.

BraveDonut · 18-09-2014 2:19pm

Oh - Okay.
I always assumed that it was a rule.

Played in a recent interclub final and the GUI official insisted on it.

PARlance · 18-09-2014 2:37pm

BraveDonut wrote: »

Oh - Okay.
I always assumed that it was a rule.

Played in a recent interclub final and the GUI official insisted on it.

Okay, now I'm doubting it

I'm still 99% sure it's not an actual rule. I've heard many people say it is before but I think people get confused or have taken if from another rule... That rule being that when you have to identify your ball (your not sure it's your one sitting in the rough) you must tell your playing partners that you are going to identify you ball (and give them a chance to observe if they want).

But as for rocking up on the first and having to announce your ball, 99% sure that's just etiquette and not a rule.

Miley Byrne · 18-09-2014 2:40pm

PARlance wrote: »

Okay, now I'm doubting it
I'm still 99% sure it's not an actual rule. I've heard many people say it is before but I think people get confused or have taken if from another rule... That rule being that when you have to identify your ball (your not sure it's your one sitting in the rough) you must tell your playing partners that you are going to identify you ball (and give them a chance to observe if they want).

But as for rocking up on the first and having to announce your ball, 99% sure that's just etiquette and not a rule.

Yeah, it's just good practice to tell your playing partners what ball you are playing

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 3:00pm

PARlance wrote: »

Unless clubs are holding their captains day mid week, I think it's safe enough to assume it was closed.

OP also stated that the guy in question won the event. It'd be usual to announce a winner before closing the comp?

Where does midweek come into it?
Sure the comp is closed now, but thats irrelevant to the discussion imo.

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 3:02pm

BraveDonut wrote: »

Oh - Okay.
I always assumed that it was a rule.

Played in a recent interclub final and the GUI official insisted on it.

thats to make sure the 3 goons on the first are all playing a Titleist 1 ProV1

PARlance · 18-09-2014 3:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Where does midweek come into it?
Sure the comp is closed now, but thats irrelevant to the discussion imo.

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt see it being mentioned that the comp was closed though?

OP starts thread on a Wednesday evening, states it was Captains Day, you raise a point that that it wasn't stated that the comp was closed.
Unless the club is having their captains day on Wednesday, I don't think your question needs to be asked.

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 4:07pm

PARlance wrote: »

OP starts thread on a Wednesday evening, states it was Captains Day, you raise a point that that it wasn't stated that the comp was closed.
Unless the club is having their captains day on Wednesday, I don't think your question needs to be asked.

johnjoe1966 wrote: »

Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?

The op asked should they have been DQ'd, not should they be DQ'd today.
It depends on when the error was discovered, you are assuming its only discovered right now by boards.ie golf forum rather than sometime after the cards are entered.

PARlance · 18-09-2014 4:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The op asked should they have been DQ'd, not should they be DQ'd today.
It depends on when the error was discovered, you are assuming its only discovered right now by boards.ie golf forum rather than sometime after the cards are entered.

I assumed no such thing.

PARlance wrote: »

Nothing will change if you're just posting on the net and don't bring it up at your club.
Have you mentioned this at all?

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 6:00pm

PARlance wrote: »

I assumed no such thing.

If you assumed no such thing then why are you fixated with when the OP posted the question rather than perhaps the issue being discovered after the cards were entered but before the comp closed?

The question was
"Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?"

The answer is no, they should have received a 2 shot penalty if the comp was still open.

PARlance · 18-09-2014 6:45pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If you assumed no such thing then why are you fixated with when the OP posted the question rather than perhaps the issue being discovered after the cards were entered but before the comp closed?

The question was
"Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?"

The answer is no, they should have received a 2 shot penalty if the comp was still open.

Not particularly fixated at all.

Why, even if the competition was still open, would they only receive a 2 shot penalty?

If (like in the case earlier) they realised their mistake at the time and decided to act accordingly, they yes, they should have went back and putted from the correct position under a 2 stroke penalty.
They didn't do this.
If the competition was still open they should return a '0' for that hole thus ruling them out of the prize.

GreeBo · 18-09-2014 10:36pm

The comp can be open but their cards entered.
I read it as they got the ruling immediately but seems was when entering the cards so should be a dq.

Once their card is in with the wrong score they are dq, even if the comp was open.
Comp open and card entered are different things.

OP I assume it was a stableford comp?

PARlance · 18-09-2014 10:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The comp can be open but their cards entered.
I read it as they got the ruling immediately but seems was when entering the cards so should be a dq.

Once their card is in with the wrong score they are dq, even if the comp was open.
Comp open and card entered are different things.

OP I assume it was a stableford comp?

OP clearly states in first post that they only queried the ruling afterwards. So the 2 shot penalty would never come into it.

Speak Now · 19-09-2014 9:16am

johnjoe1966 wrote: »

Two players both play the wrong ball (on putting green). They only realise after they they complete the hole. They query the rule when handing in the card and are told no penalty applies. One goes on to win the captains prize-no remarks passed.

I would have thought anyone with basic knowledge of the rules would have recorded a '0' on the hole without having to ask the question. This person would have represented his club at every level in competitions and generally take on to be a bit of an expert.

Q1: Am I that they should have recorded a '0'?

Q2: Even if a member of the committee gave them wrong info and they signed for an incorrect score should they still not have been disqualified?

Q3: Is this not typical double standards (guy on a different occasions had prize taken off him for recording wrong score but was not on committee)

The green or putting green? Did they get balls mixed on putting green and only notice after they played the first hole or was it when in play?

GreeBo · 19-09-2014 7:15pm

PARlance wrote: »

OP clearly states in first post that they only queried the ruling afterwards. So the 2 shot penalty would never come into it.

That's what I just said.

You seem to be equating cards in with comp closed though, they can be dq'd once cards are in and error discovered.

johnjoe1966 · 22-09-2014 5:19pm

they were playing the 6th hole. Only hear about this a year later so comp is well and truly closed but it's good to find out the actual rule. Thanks for replies

Rules query-wrong ball played

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