Aer Lingus - the Dublin airline

sceptre · 19-08-2003 12:52am

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
6. Those of you that want to see Aer Lingus privatised, do you really want another Eircom fiasco where Bertie and the Boys get to piss your money up the wall selling your airline to a few thousand shareholders.

Key difference between the two. Eircom was overpriced, sure. The key problem we've got with Eircom these days is that it's a privately held company with a monopoly at the last mile level. Aer Lingus is not and will not be a company with any sort of monopoly.

Hence the only problem with a sell-off of Aer Lingus may be that idiots buy an overpriced company and can't understand why their shares fail to hold value if the bottom falls out of the overpriced market. That's the investor's problem, not the problem of the country as a whole. Why? That lack of monopoly status.

The Eircom selloff was an immense sucess from the point of view of the Department of Finance. They got a pile of gullible fools to pour money into an overpriced selloff and made 5 billion quid from the deal. I didn't agree with the copper infrastructure being sold off but believe me - the government didn't "piss (our) money up the wall." We (not including me, it was overpriced, remember?) did that ourselves when the possibility of guaranteed (not really) free wads of cash entered our greedy little minds. The government made 5 billion pounds from the deal and they'd quite like to do it again. Whether they should or not is another matter but nothing to do with pissing money up against the wall.

parsi · 19-08-2003 9:12am

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Some Aer Lingus Facts for you

parsi & Eurorunner

1.. The last time Aer Lingus were 'bailed out' was around 1992 when they instituted a restructuring known as the Cahill Plan. Since then the only money paid by tax payers was for the subsidy of routes, that Aer Lingus have completely pulled out of in recent years. How many of you were paying tax 10 years ago???

I was. And I still am. And I have a right to expect that a Semi-State company provide a service for the citizens of the country. Yes, Aer Arann fly Cork-Dublin. They are private. They can decide tomorrow to pull out and concentrate somewhere else. Thats what being private is about - you are responsible only to your backers/investors/shareholders.

Aer Lingus is Semi-State - people in Clare, Cork, Donegal and elsewhere are its shareholders with the Government as our proxy. We deserve service. As I said before if Aer Lingus want to act private let them go private and have to fight for everything in every airport just like the other guys. However if they want the protection (perceived or otherwise) of semi-state then they should provide the services that go with that.

Imposter · 19-08-2003 9:47am

Originally posted by parsi
Aer Lingus is Semi-State - people in Clare, Cork, Donegal and elsewhere are its shareholders with the Government as our proxy. We deserve service. As I said before if Aer Lingus want to act private let them go private and have to fight for everything in every airport just like the other guys. However if they want the protection (perceived or otherwise) of semi-state then they should provide the services that go with that. [/B]

That's a lot of rubbish in fairness. The State provides bus and/or rail 'services' to all of these areas. To provide a service to a given area is one thing but to suggest that just because a town/city has an airport that the government must provide the service is wrong. One single 'service' should be provided to every area and after that sensible services that make a profit should exist. After all who wants to waste taxpayers money?

As for Aer Lingus providing a public service, they do. They provide a service to people who want to get out of Ireland (and come in) for whatever reason. As someone else pointed out this service is largely concentrated in Dublin just like most national airlines have a base airport, live with it or move to Dublin like everyone else seems to be doing.

parsi · 19-08-2003 11:49am

Originally posted by Imposter
That's a lot of rubbish in fairness. The State provides bus and/or rail 'services' to all of these areas. To provide a service to a given area is one thing but to suggest that just because a town/city has an airport that the government must provide the service is wrong. One single 'service' should be provided to every area and after that sensible services that make a profit should exist. After all who wants to waste taxpayers money?

As for Aer Lingus providing a public service, they do. They provide a service to people who want to get out of Ireland (and come in) for whatever reason. As someone else pointed out this service is largely concentrated in Dublin just like most national airlines have a base airport, live with it or move to Dublin like everyone else seems to be doing.

I thought the whole idea of Boards was that we could discuss things and not have to "live with it or move to Dublin". With that response the Ireland Offline forum would die down to "live with it or move to Germany where DSL is cheaper and freely available".

The point is that those of us who don't dwell in the capital should have access to a similar range of services as those who live in the capital. When we are dealing with private companies we have sweet-all chance of influencing them but with State services we do have an option.

Imposter · 19-08-2003 12:10pm

Originally posted by parsi
I thought the whole idea of Boards was that we could discuss things and not have to "live with it or move to Dublin". With that response the Ireland Offline forum would die down to "live with it or move to Germany where DSL is cheaper and freely available".

The point is that those of us who don't dwell in the capital should have access to a similar range of services as those who live in the capital. When we are dealing with private companies we have sweet-all chance of influencing them but with State services we do have an option.

Sorry about that move to the capital jibe but it was meant in jest!

But why do you see the need for a publicly funded flight connection between Dublin and Cork if both bus and rail connections already exist and in theory only take 3 to 4 hours?
Ireland is not a big island. if it was say a 6+ hour trip between cities then such a connection would make sense even if it ran at a loss.

How long does it take to get from city centre Dublin to city centre Cork when flying (including waiting time in airport)? How much is such a service going to cost? If it was running at a profit I don't think Aer Lingus would be shutting it down. Add to that there still are the private options.

IMO people are not 'entitled' to a similar range of services. They may be 'entitled' to transport links that ensure they can get virtually everywhere but a similar range, I don't think so. With that logic Leitrim could decide it is 'entitled' to an airport and direct flights to Prague, Paris and New York but such a service would be a bit stupid, wouldn't it?

Personally i'd much prefer to see rail and road infrastructures improved to cut journey times and then provide decent services on these and not the haphazard ones public companies do now.
Also maybe some sort of integrated ticketing between road, rail, ferry and air transport but that's probably all just a bit too much to happen.

parsi · 19-08-2003 12:43pm

Ok. You're right and I'm a bit right. I'm not going to argue anymore cos we seem to share the same basic views.

I think Leitrim having an airport is a good idea - save them clogging up all the other airports ;-)

Integrated ticketing is a good idea as well - I see Dublin Bus have a tender out for it - probably be implemented any day now ;-) (edited to include: sarcastic comment - how many times have we seen integrated ticketing plans/aspirations before)

Victor · 19-08-2003 3:18pm

OK, tone it down a little. If anyone on this thread works in or for the transport industry, I want to know now.

Originally posted by Imposter
IMO people are not 'entitled' to a similar range of services. They may be 'entitled' to transport links that ensure they can get virtually everywhere but a similar range, I don't think so. With that logic Leitrim could decide it is 'entitled' to an airport and direct flights to Prague, Paris and New York but such a service would be a bit stupid, wouldn't it?

I think people are entitled to "balance", not equality per se in this. By this I mean taxation should be spent somewhere between splitting it according to genuine need and spending it on a purely per capita basis. Theres about 25,000 people in Leitrim, 1,100,000 in Dublin. If we are spending €1,125,000 (to keep the number simple) on say a bus service, at least €1,000,000 (90%) should go to Dublin. At least €22,500 (90%) should go to Leitrim. The €22,500 will only provide a part-time service in Leitrim and Leitrim people should get used to this.

secret_squirrel · 20-08-2003 9:21pm

I should have mentioned that I work for Aer Lingus and Im proud to. I've seen a bloated ineffiecent company turned round into a model of how a full service airline can compete with a No Frills carrier like Ryan Air.

The tax thing was flippant - shouldnt have mentioned it sorry.

The €5 thing was mentioned in an internal company memo around the time of the ruling and accompanied this press release here

Im pretty sure it was the Glasgow route as mentioned in that press release and the Ryan Air average was around €41. But I freely admit that I have no way to prove those figures - you'll just have to trust me or not - your choice.

As to Ryan Air being able to drive Aer Lingus out of business/or even take them over - of course they could - but it would be a nasty drawn out process where the only losers would be the public. Ryan Air have much bigger fish to fry (Lufthansa mostly at the mo- the Irish market is in the end fairly limited. Ryan Airs hub at Stansted is already bigger than Dublin's, they also have 2 rapidly developing hubs in europe.

And completely back on topic (sorry for all the diversions) - privatisation is and always has been a scam. A government takes something we all own and flogs it off to a few shareholders, for short term gains. Aer Lingus is valued at around €400m (last newspaper speculation that I saw

)which amounts to pocket change for most national Govts. Plus then theres potentially nothing stopping a majority of shareholders flogging Aer Lingus off or stripping its assets and closing it down - something I think which would be very detrimental to the economy. Unlike Eircom a good deal of Aer Lingus's assets are portable or out of the country which is added incentives for one of the big boys in avation to strip the company.
I lived in the UK during the late 80's early 90's and saw loads of companies flogged off - mostly at the long term expense of consumers. (Water/Power/Gas/Buses) . I think a well run semi-state provides the best compromise between giving value to the country (even without Cork-Dublin flights) and operating in commercial realities.

Victor · 20-08-2003 9:42pm

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
The €5 thing was mentioned in an internal company memo around the time of the ruling and accompanied this press release here

Link appears to be cookie dependant can you show the path to it or include a quote.

secret_squirrel · 20-08-2003 9:57pm

sorry 'bout that!

Full text can be found following aerlingus.com---> site map ---> Aer Lingus News ---> Press Release 13 May

Excerpt here -

Aer Lingus challenges Ryanair on "untruthful and grossly misleading" fares publicity

Aer Lingus today condemned recent Ryanair advertising on supposed "average" fares as "untruthful and grossly misleading".

...yada yada yada...

....... Ryanair advertising has claimed the Aer Lingus "average" fare to be €185.86. Willie Walsh dismissed this as "bizarre and basic financial miscalculation by Ryanair to vastly and knowingly inflate the Aer Lingus "average" fare."

The actual Aer Lingus average fares on a range of routes where the airline competes directly with Ryanair are as follows:

* Birmingham:
€61.14
* Edinburgh:
€45.90
* Glasgow:
€46.11
* London Gatwick:
€59.07
* Manchester:
€64.52

sceptre · 21-08-2003 1:10am

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
sorry 'bout that!

Full text can be found following aerlingus.com---> site map ---> Aer Lingus News ---> Press Release 13 May

Ta muchy. I was reasonably happy to accept your claim anyway rather than just argue it. One point though: the ASAI didn't vindicate the claim of the price difference being 5 euros, contrary to what you said. Ryanair misled in their advertising (which AL have also done in recent past but not quite so badly & probably not so deliberately/maliciously) but there's no independent verification of the fiver claim. It's an Aerlingus press release. An Aer Lingus press release that itself doesn't mention the fiver claim. Let's discount the fiver claim.

I book a flight to London (usually from Shannon but I also check Cork and Dublin) about once a month. Ryanair have been significantly cheaper 75% of the time (even allowing for the 20 quid from Stansted in rather than the 5.80 from LHR on the tube (the travel times are the same if not using the heathrow express to paddington)). Of the remainder (25%), Aer Lingus win out over all opposition most of the time but cheaper fares on the same flights are usually (not always) found on the BA website rather than the AL one). Most of the time AL don't even come close.

I'm not too sure why you're continuing the Eircom comparison (which I brought up initially but for different reasons as I mentioned). The trouble with Eircom is that we can't get rid of them or have an alternative. If Aer Lingus disappeared tomorrow the main losers would be the workers - alternative services would still exist.
I realise I'm just being lazy here at this late hour but why are you sure that stripping Aer Lingus or closing it would be of significant detriment to the economy (apart from the obvious loss in PAYE revenue due to redundancies)?

(I'm not anti-Aer Lingus btw - I'm just picking up on this specific "we really need it" point and I'm probably going to stick just to that one)

secret_squirrel · 21-08-2003 8:23pm

Well I dont think we absolutely need it. I just think the economy is better with it - from a simple tax view if nothing else. Most of Aer Lingus's business is transatlantic - if they go so does the tax revenue from that trade - it all goes to non-irish carriers. There no other irish airline else in any position to take up that slack. Plus the americans are very restrictive about their airspace you can bet they would delay granting another Irish airline permission to fly to the US as long as possible. Its also quite likely that a european airline would force you fly via one of their bases rather than direct. IMHO real alternatives wouldnt exist.

And whilst Aer Lingus is not big enough, or efficient enough to compete with Ryan air directly we're big enough to keep them honest. Do you honestly believe that Ryan air would keep prices from ireland as low as they are right now with some reasonably sized competition?

You are more likely to find cheaper fares on BA (and I assume you mean BA tickets on an Aer Lingus flight) rather than Aerlingus because they are less likely to sell out as quickly - simply because less people would think to check BA for those flights.

Im not stuck on Eircom was just using it because its most recent privatisation that would stick in most peoples minds. Although I dont honestly think there one real alternative to Aer Lingus currently.

And on the subject no-one has yet explained to me how privatisation will give us a better situation than now.
Could some one from the city old boys club have turned aer lingus around so fast? - I dont think so.
Aer Lingus is heading for a decent sized profit this year - when most quoted (full service airlines) are still barely adapting to a Post 11/9 market. There's this myth that privatisation always brings better more effiecent companies any one who has watched some of the privatise everything madness in the UK will know that in a lot of cases its just not true.

Any maybe this is being picky but since the poll appears open again and since Aer Lingus hasnt been bailed out since 1992 and the Govt is specifically forbidden by the EU commission to invest in Aer Lingus dont some of the poll options merit a change??

parsi · 26-08-2003 2:10pm

"Aer Lingus to run three new routes from Cork

Aer Lingus has announced plans to open three new routes between Cork and continental Europe next year.

The company said it would begin operating flights from Cork to Barcelona, Alicante and Milan from next March. It said the expansion confirmed its commitment to developing its operations out of Cork.

The new flights will represent a 50% increase in the capacity of Aer Lingus flights between Cork and continental Europe. "

source: http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/08/26/story111118.html

I suppose we should thank them. Surely it would be better to open additional routes rather than just compete with the popular JetMagic routes ?

Eurorunner · 26-08-2003 3:02pm

"Aer Lingus to run three new routes from Cork

Well, i would say that this is more positive..routes between the regions and europe as opposed to the regions and dublin are going to be a hell of a lot more valueable in terns of investment, tourism and convenience.

Aer Lingus obviously see jetmagic as a threat they want to stomp out..theyre probably both going after the same type of customer - but theres nothing like a bit of competition!

secret_squirrel · 26-08-2003 8:10pm

and on a kinda related note - you wait until you see the new ad campaign...lets just say it might fuel some more debate lol.

The man shagging whale icon is especially interesting. Im unable to make up my mind if its sh*te or clever or both

sceptre · 26-08-2003 9:06pm

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Well I dont think we absolutely need it. I just think the economy is better with it

That's fair enough and (for what it's worth:D) I agree with you.

You are more likely to find cheaper fares on BA (and I assume you mean BA tickets on an Aer Lingus flight) rather than Aerlingus because they are less likely to sell out as quickly - simply because less people would think to check BA for those flights.

Ah, thanks for the explanation (yeah, that's what I meant). So I'm being a sharp consumer.

And on the subject no-one has yet explained to me how privatisation will give us a better situation than now.
...
any one who has watched some of the privatise everything madness in the UK will know that in a lot of cases its just not true.

I'm very much against privatisation just for the sake of privatisation. Actually the actions in the UK in the mid-eighties and since have made me rather suspicious of privatisation in general. If there's a particular advantage to be gained from a particular privatisation then that's OK. Or if service level can be guaranteed with some free money for the State that's OK too (this pretty much never happens). Even the PPP with the London underground is something I'm still very suspicios of.

I haven't offered an advantage to privatising AL because I can't think of one. That's the reason I'm not all that inclined to privatise the company at all, or at least not very much in favour of it. I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who can though.

Victor · 18-09-2003 12:17am

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1509750?view=Eircomnet

Airbus to supply Aer Lingus with 17 aircraft
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 17th September, 2003

Aer Lingus today confirmed Airbus as the sole supplier of aircraft for its extended European route network that it intends to operate as a budget carrier.

Under the deal announced today, Aer Lingus will acquire 17 A320 aircraft from Airbus, of which seven will be purchased outright and ten will be leased. The airline already operates 10 Airbus aircraft.

The deal also includes options for a further ten A320 aircraft.

Aer Lingus chief executive Mr Willie Walsh said he was "delighted" with the result of the 15-month evaluation process and described the order as an "excellent financial deal achieved at precisely the right time in the industry cycle".

Aer Lingus will use the aircraft on the 15 new European routes it intends to open in the next two years, bringing to 30 the number of new routes opened since the end of 2001.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1510727?view=Eircomnet

Aer Lingus staff to get 14.9% stake of airline
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 17th September, 2003

Aer Lingus employees have been given an increased holding of 14.9 per cent in the company, which could lead to a windfall if it is sold or floated on the stock exchange.

The Aer Lingus Bill, 2003, published today creates an Employee Share Ownership Plan (ESOP) agreed between the Government and the unions as part of the survival plan for the airline.

Since September 11th, the Aer Lingus has trimmed its cost base by €300 million, which included cutting one-third of its staff and half of its management team.

The Bill also provides for Aer Lingus to establish superannuation schemes for general employees and pensioners and for amendments in relation to the appointment of directors, including worker directors.

The Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, said today said the publication of the Bill will be the final phase of the survival plan and is the "concrete acknowledgement" of the contribution of the staff to the turnaround of the airline following the terrorist attacks on the United States.

Aer Lingus - the Dublin airline

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