Is modern Irish society missing something? SRS

Elemonator · 16-01-2017 9:52pm #1

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Turtyturd · 16-01-2017 9:54pm

What's the blocked out word in the title?

Grayson · 16-01-2017 9:55pm

Crime is lower than it was. So I guess you're wrong.

Grayson · 16-01-2017 9:56pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

What's the blocked out word in the title?

racial epitaphs for culchies I guess

Elemonator · 16-01-2017 9:58pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

What's the blocked out word in the title?

I put them there, assumed it would draw attention to SRS.

I thought it meant serious

Peregrine · 16-01-2017 10:00pm

Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity?

mariaalice · 16-01-2017 10:03pm

Society has actuley become more regulated, safer and secure since the 1970s and it is far more to do with becoming a wealthy society that any thing else. The media has amplified the perception of danger.

ChikiChiki · 16-01-2017 10:05pm

8 reported suicides in Cork over the weeked, 100s over the year with many not registered as suicide. I can't put my finger on why as we are living in a country with all the opportunity in the world. But it is a problem and we are missing something in this area.

Sorry if I'm gone off topic a little but it breaks my heart.

odyssey06 · 16-01-2017 10:05pm

Ireland was not a devout Catholic country in the 1820s... by all accounts its' morals in matters of sexuality would have shocked (mortified!) an Irish Catholic priest of 100 years later. In the post Famine period, Irish society was broken, and in the absence of a native Irish (as opposed to British) leadership, the Catholic hierarchy stepped in as moral watchdogs.

Modern society in general is missing something... I'm not convinced it is religion. Remember on a daily basis in mid 20th century Ireland, Catholic institutions meted out daily punishments to children that in 2017 would be considered serious criminal offences!

Grayson · 16-01-2017 10:17pm

Dublin had the biggest redlight area in Europe until the 1920's.

matrim · 16-01-2017 10:22pm

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Do you think the teacher / priest / parent beating the ****e out of a kid counts as rough? Because I'm sure there was a lot more of that happening 50 years ago

stimpson · 16-01-2017 10:24pm

Correlation does not imply causation, otherwise we could blame global warming on a lack of pirates:

Elemonator · 16-01-2017 10:27pm

stimpson wrote: »

Correlation does not imply causation, otherwise we could blame global warming on a lack of pirates:

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Dyr · 16-01-2017 10:29pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity?

More research needs to be done on the impact of the disappearance of sodastreams from Ireland on the rise of drug cartels

Agricola · 16-01-2017 10:34pm

It's the same as small town or village life vs big city life. Ireland, until recently was effectively a small town. Not much industry, no one went anywhere interesting, everyone knew everyone and their business. In fact, the only thing most people could do to stave off boredom was talk about people in the parish.

Nowadays most people are fairly well travelled, we are open to outsiders and new ideas, we have a plethora of things to keep us engaged/distracted and the standard of living is relatively good, so a lot of people are chasing careers and money, where years ago they just got by, farmed or were homemakers.

It's all go in modern Ireland and that is reflected in the noticeable decline of auid time Irish sensibilities and the increase in isolation, suicide, violent crime. It's a by product of being a modern first world country.

mariaalice · 16-01-2017 10:41pm

I have a bit of theory about this as western society has become more wealthy, more educated, and has giving individuals more choice, become more regulated the vast majority of violent crime is now committed by those with some sort of psychopathic disorder, its why there is more random violence. This is a problem for society because no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

stimpson · 16-01-2017 10:56pm

Elemonator wrote: »

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Yeah, but the point is that you can't assume that one causes the other. It may be the other way around or they may be both caused buy a third factor. Or it could just be a coincidence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-01-2017 11:03pm

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Corealtaion =/= causation.

The idea that the church instilled law and order is erroneous at best - they were breaking laws to beat the band themselves.

The real reason for the change is this: rule by fear never ever EVER lasts long. At some point, people will ask questions and discover that the wizard behind the curtain is not really as powerful or all-knowing as he claims to be, and they begin to question him. And when they realise he has no answers and they need not respect him, they lose respect for him.

And this is exactly what happened in the early nineties with the advent of the internet. People no longer had to take the church's word for something, they could go look things up. Which they did, and found out that the world outside was not how they were told it was and how the church had been lying to them in order to scare and control them.

The same thing happened (but not nessecarily because of the internet) in Eastern Europe and the communists, and South Africa and aparthied.

The probelm arose then of a power vaccum. Tabloids tried to step in, but inly stoked the flames. Governments distracted people with shiny objects, but again, that proved to be only temporary.

learn_more · 16-01-2017 11:13pm

A lot of violent crimes (murders etc ) that are reported in the media is disproportionately caused by immigrants. The media go out of their way to hide that fact for fear of being called racist.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-01-2017 11:15pm

learn_more wrote: »

A lot of violent crimes (murders etc ) that are reported in the media is disproportionately caused by immigrants. The media go out of their way to hide that fact for fear of being called racist.

And you know this because...?

mariaalice · 16-01-2017 11:19pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And you know this because...?

You will only drew them all out!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-01-2017 11:22pm

mariaalice wrote: »

You will only drew them all out!

Oh God, no. They never come back when you stand up and point out that their claim is actually unverifyable. A bit like the church, really.

goose2005 · 16-01-2017 11:26pm

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

Just not caring? I think people care about each other as much as they ever did, if not substantially more. Where was 'care' when Ireland was full of dumping grounds for the misfits - magdalene asylums, lunatic asylums, county homes, borstals, industrial schools, and of course the emigrant ship?

And violence has been declining constantly from a peak in the mid-90s.

goose2005 · 16-01-2017 11:28pm

mariaalice wrote: »

no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

B.A._Baracus · 16-01-2017 11:31pm

I think the decline in religious people hasn't nothing to do with Ireland becoming more rough..

I think the world is just getting more rough as it is.

Earthhorse · 16-01-2017 11:33pm

There is certainly less cohesion to society without the church being taken as the moral authority on all things but that doesn't count for much when you consider they really had no right to that moral authority in the first place.

I don't really think that's at the centre of any perceived increase in crime or us becoming a less caring society.

mariaalice · 16-01-2017 11:36pm

goose2005 wrote: »

But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

Nature verses nurture the science seem to be coming down more and more on the nature side as far as I can tell that does not mean that nurture is not important.

16-01-2017 11:37pm

Elemonator wrote: »

P

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's (

OMG I'm so old and this forum has got so young:(

Permabear · 16-01-2017 11:38pm

This post has been deleted.

B.A._Baracus · 16-01-2017 11:43pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But that's your opinion (and the authors opinion) while I have mine.

We could both get back quoting valid reasons as to why you believe this, while I'll believe that etc. At the end of the day... It's just our individual opinions.

seamus · 16-01-2017 11:44pm

Elemonator wrote: »

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Indeed. There's a strong correlation between high religious observance and high levels of assaults, especially against women, as well as corruption and murder.

The most moral countries in the world are also the ones with the lowest level of religious influence in public life.

Permabear · 16-01-2017 11:46pm

This post has been deleted.

themagiconion · 16-01-2017 11:47pm

goose... But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

psychopaths and sociopaths don't have that good feeling that most of us have. They're missing this feeling in their brain, and cannot feel empathy for others, they are born this way, missing this part. A person like this could be standing on the path watching another getting murdered and they would feel absolutely nothing.

Jimoslimos · 16-01-2017 11:50pm

stimpson wrote: »

Correlation does not imply causation, otherwise we could blame global warming on a lack of pirates:

This graph is annoying me more than it should. Firstly I don't think it takes into account the rise in modern piracy, e.g. off the coast of Somalia. Secondly the intervals on the x-axis are all kinds of wrong.

B.A._Baracus · 16-01-2017 11:52pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sorry Permabear, but sounds like you want a pissing contest... And what's that gonna get us?

You'll make valid points. I'll make valid points. You'll quote things. I'll quote things and for what? For you to continue having your own opinion and for me to continue having my own opinion.

How about we cut the crap and just agree you believe what you believe in. I believe what I believe in

no need to waste anyone's time.

jimmycrackcorm · 16-01-2017 11:54pm

goose2005 wrote:

But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

I remember the seventies and eighties and we live in a golden era now in comparison. Back then there were plenty of psychopaths in the IRA and the UVF.

seamus · 16-01-2017 11:55pm

mariaalice wrote: »

This is a problem for society because no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

It's good that the problem is being exposed though. Whereas previously these people would have been the town weirdo who everyone avoided until he butchered some young woman on Saturday night, these people are at least now recognised as having a mental issue that needs monitoring and help.

There are often a lot of questions as to why the United States has such an enormous problem with gun crime, and yet Canada, with just as many or even more guns, has no such problem.

And I firmly believe it comes down to mental health. In the United States there is no free healthcare. The poorest people in society can die in the gutter for all the US cares about their health. Can't pay? Fnck you. Whereas Canada has universal free healthcare, so even the poorest people get top-quality assistance.

And what socio-economic group has a strong correlation with mental illness? Yep.

learn_more · 17-01-2017 2:48am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And you know this because...?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Oh God, no. They never come back when you stand up and point out that their claim is actually unverifyable. A bit like the church, really.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/cage-fighter-among-two-found-guilty-of-athlone-murder-1.2620926

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.herald.ie/news/how-shady-foreign-gangs-are-getting-a-foothold-here-28907241.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-await-postmortem-of-polish-man-found-dead-in-cork-398587.html

http://connachttribune.ie/young-man-was-stabbed-to-death-and-left-to-die-inquest-2/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/latvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Flatvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540

http://connachttribune.ie/latvian-national-remanded-in-custody-over-glenamaddy-murder/

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/indian-origin-father-charged-with-murder-of-sons-in-ireland_866307.html

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/courts/chinese-national-admits-manslaughter-for-killing-outside-dublin-cafe

Does that answer your question, Princess ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-01-2017 8:33am

learn_more wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/cage-fighter-among-two-found-guilty-of-athlone-murder-1.2620926

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.herald.ie/news/how-shady-foreign-gangs-are-getting-a-foothold-here-28907241.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-await-postmortem-of-polish-man-found-dead-in-cork-398587.html

http://connachttribune.ie/young-man-was-stabbed-to-death-and-left-to-die-inquest-2/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/latvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Flatvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540

http://connachttribune.ie/latvian-national-remanded-in-custody-over-glenamaddy-murder/

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/indian-origin-father-charged-with-murder-of-sons-in-ireland_866307.html

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/courts/chinese-national-admits-manslaughter-for-killing-outside-dublin-cafe

Does that answer your question, Princess ?

Eh, no - not really. Selectively quoting a few stories in place of statistical backup?

What you're actually showing me here is that the media is most certainly NOT affraid of reporting crime commited by immigrants and is NOT affraid of being called racist if it does - which very much contradicts your inital point.

Tell me:
What percentage of crime is perpetrated by immigrants?
What percentage of this crime is NOT covered by the media?

kneemos · 17-01-2017 8:52am

Would have thought the ridiculous church rules on everything from sex to your diet made folk more bitter,divisive and judgemental.
I think we're much more open and accepting these days. As for violent behaviour,it was taught as a means of achieving what you want in most schools.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-01-2017 8:55am

Elemonator wrote:

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Why, why, WHY does religion get that assumption for free?

What are you even talking about when you mention the decline in society anyway? You don't have forced child labour today, you don't have highwaymen murdering murdering people on the road. Is it possible the know thing we have more of is reporting of crime which makes it appear that there is more than in the past?

It bugs me that religion gets a completely free ride when people discuss these things. In medieval times murder was common and war was constant and the religious were everywhere. Maybe these things change completely independent of religious people.

kneemos · 17-01-2017 8:58am

learn_more wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/cage-fighter-among-two-found-guilty-of-athlone-murder-1.2620926

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/china-death-sentence-over-dublin-murder-unlikely-1.2167732

http://www.herald.ie/news/how-shady-foreign-gangs-are-getting-a-foothold-here-28907241.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-await-postmortem-of-polish-man-found-dead-in-cork-398587.html

http://connachttribune.ie/young-man-was-stabbed-to-death-and-left-to-die-inquest-2/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/latvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Flatvian-man-55-charged-with-limerick-city-murder-1.2187540

http://connachttribune.ie/latvian-national-remanded-in-custody-over-glenamaddy-murder/

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/indian-origin-father-charged-with-murder-of-sons-in-ireland_866307.html

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/courts/chinese-national-admits-manslaughter-for-killing-outside-dublin-cafe

Does that answer your question, Princess ?

Immigrants are statistically law abiding and hard working.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-01-2017 8:59am

mariaalice wrote:

I have a bit of theory about this as western society has become more wealthy, more educated, and has giving individuals more choice, become more regulated the vast majority of violent crime is now committed by those with some sort of psychopathic disorder, its why there is more random violence. This is a problem for society because no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

Now we can treat psychotic behaviour to some extent. In the past we couldn't treat it at all. And given the trauma children endured in the form of physical violence in the past, I'm betting there was plenty of psychotic behaviour back then too (probably referred to as demon possession or some rubbish). Who did the common man report crimes to back in those days? The police who put a detailed report in a file for posterity?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-01-2017 10:46am

Elemonator wrote: »

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Not nessecarily. Children raised without rleigion tend to be more generous and more ethical.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2015/11/05/religion-morality/#4f70fbb0670e

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/

17-01-2017 10:50am

Peregrine wrote: »

Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity?

Think about it!

farmchoice · 17-01-2017 11:11am

people always think the world has gone to **** and it was better in the old days.
by and large in Ireland we are not too bad for doing this as Ireland was genuinely so poor and crap in the recent past that it is very easy to see that modern Ireland for all its faults is a better place then Ireland 50 years ago.

the British are particularly bad for this in my experience every thing was always better in the past, i think that preception was one of the main causes of brexit.

there probably is less of a sence of community then there used to be but again compared to other western countries community ties in Ireland are still very strong.

if there is a falling away in family values or community spirit or even moral decency ( as opposed to morality) then i wouldn't blame it on the falling away of catholic church participation.

Irish people were not decent people in the past because of church attendance, and in my opinion are no less decent now because of a rejection of it.

sbsquarepants · 17-01-2017 11:26am

themagiconion wrote: »

psychopaths and sociopaths don't have that good feeling that most of us have. They're missing this feeling in their brain, and cannot feel empathy for others, they are born this way, missing this part. A person like this could be standing on the path watching another getting murdered and they would feel absolutely nothing.

This is not really true, psychopathy is on a spectrum, it's not an either / or type condition. For every Jeffrey Dahmer with a stash of bodies out their back and an insatiable lust to kill there are 100 people who are perfectly harmless but just don't cry at movies!

Permabear · 17-01-2017 11:40am

This post has been deleted.

kunst nugget · 17-01-2017 12:35pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Only if they adhered to the strict social mores of the day like you stated above. I think I'd hang myself if I had to go back and live in the 'utopia' of yesteryear.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-01-2017 12:58pm

farmchoice wrote: »

if there is a falling away in family values or community spirit or even moral decency ( as opposed to morality) then i wouldn't blame it on the falling away of catholic church participation.

Irish people were not decent people in the past because of church attendance, and in my opinion are no less decent now because of a rejection of it.

The [roblem with family values is that every family has values. The Addams Family had values.

seamus · 17-01-2017 1:00pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

Only if they adhered to the strict social mores of the day like you stated above. I think I'd hang myself if I had to go back and live in the 'utopia' of yesteryear.

Indeed, there was a lovely community spirit if you were a good, honest god-fearing man or a good, honest, subservient woman.

Get notions about yourself or disagree with the parish priest and you'd quickly see how that community spirit turns into widespread contempt.

Is modern Irish society missing something? ****SRS****

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Is modern Irish society missing something? SRS