Queen Victoria's visits to Dublin in 1897 & 1900

Godot. · 18-01-2015 1:49am #1

Amazing scenes. The large crowds got me thinking...

How Unionist was the geographical area that is now the Republic of Ireland around that time?
Were there many Irish people proud to be British and proud of Ireland's contribution to the United Kingdom?

Stojkovic · 18-01-2015 2:02am

The Irish have always been event junkies.

Manach · 18-01-2015 3:07am

My understanding that the Royal visits were popular. This was based on reading (AFAIR) on primary source material. That is not to say there was not counter-cultural or politicially nationalist organisations that opposed the visits. But they did not have a sufficiently large base of support. It is only by recognising the pivotal effects of the era 1916-1922 had on making undermining the Unionist cause in Southern Ireland, that such scenes as the OP posts should be viewed.

Arsemageddon · 18-01-2015 5:30am

At the time of Victoria's visits in 1897 and 1900 the main political focus for Irish nationalists was home rule rather than the full seperation from the UK advocated by Irish Republicans. As menfioned above there were groups opposed to her visits. It was Maud Gonne who first called Victoria the 'famine queen' in advance of the 1900 visit.

The attitude of Irish people toward the union at this time was never black and white (despite what many posters in this forum seem to think). Much ofthe middle class would have prospered under the Union and would have been happy to be part of what was then the richest and most powerful country in the world. Irish men made up a significant part of the British army (about 25% I think, but I'd have to check that). In addition, the land issue had been pretty much settled by this time, therefore rural areas were quite stable.

Its also worth noting that the Tory policy of 'killing home rule by kindness' AKA constructive unionism (1895-1905) granted consessions to Ireland in the areas of land reform, local government and third level education for Catholics.

.....or maybe, as pointed out above her reception was simply because a hell of a lot of Irish people like to whore themselves around the rich and powerful. Michael Noonans cringe inducing greeting of Donald Trump at Shannon airport springs to mind, as does the visit of Barrack Obama to Moneygall. Somethings never change.

ChicagoJoe · 18-01-2015 3:15pm

Godot. wrote: »

Amazing scenes. The large crowds got me thinking...

How Unionist was the geographical area that is now the Republic of Ireland around that time?
Were there many Irish people proud to be British and proud of Ireland's contribution to the United Kingdom?

Dublin had quite a unionist population back then. Just remember the leader of unionism sectarian bigot Edward Carson back then was from Dublin, and in the 1918 election unionists won 3 seats in Dublin. Probably a fair few unionists from the north may have come down to see her, I wonder did her 'majesty' bring one of her Scottish Ghillies (hunter) with her for secret romance !!!! Hardly left it to the Irish peasants eh !!!!

Apparently she was quite fond of some Indian hot spices too !!

Little interest in her descendant though

ChicagoJoe · 18-01-2015 3:33pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

At the time of Victoria's visits in 1897 and 1900 the main political focus for Irish nationalists was home rule rather than the full seperation from the UK advocated by Irish Republicans. As menfioned above there were groups opposed to her visits. It was Maud Gonne who first called Victoria the 'famine queen' in advance of the 1900 visit.

Like Henry Ford's saying about the model T, you can have it in any color so long as it's black, Home Rule (a glorified talking shop) was presented as the only possible way forward to eventual Irish independence by the cronyism of the establishment of the IPP/news papers/churches until 1916 etc

The attitude of Irish people toward the union at this time was never black and white (despite what many posters in this forum seem to think). Much of the middle class would have prospered under the Union and would have been happy to be part of what was then the richest and most powerful country in the world. Irish men made up a significant part of the British army (about 25% I think, but I'd have to check that). In addition, the land issue had been pretty much settled by this time, therefore rural areas were quite stable.

If it was the case that Ireland was happy to be part of what was then the richest and most powerful country in the world I would have thought that the Ireland would have incorporated into it's voting patterns British party's like the Conservatives, Liberals etc like Wales and Scotland did. Instead politics remained as Home Rule/Nationalist versus unionist. And as for Irishmen been in the British forces, economic conscripts the vast majority of them, it's one of the products of colonial rule that due to the economic conditions that people often as the only means of survival have to serve that same colonial power.

Its also worth noting that the Tory policy of 'killing home rule by kindness' AKA constructive unionism (1895-1905) granted consessions to Ireland in the areas of land reform, local government and third level education for Catholics.

.....or maybe, as pointed out above her reception was simply because a hell of a lot of Irish people like to whore themselves around the rich and powerful. Michael Noonans cringe inducing greeting of Donald Trump at Shannon airport springs to mind, as does the visit of Barrack Obama to Moneygall. Somethings never change.

Bruton's speech to Prince Charles in Dublin Castle beats anything

Snickers Man · 18-01-2015 7:47pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

At the time of Victoria's visits in 1897 and 1900 the main political focus for Irish nationalists was home rule rather than the full seperation from the UK advocated by Irish Republicans..

Irony is usually only a consequence of not being aware of all the facts.

It might seem ironic that the great champion of the Irish people, or at least the majority catholic section of it, would have membership cards for one of his associations emblazoned with the slogan "God Save the Queen" but that is exactly what Daniel O'Connell did. One of his many organisations (can't remember which one; maybe the Catholic Association) had just that slogan on it.

Arthur Griffith, founder of Sinn Fein remember, wasn't an out and out separatist. His role models were the Hungarians, who demanded a modicum of autonomy and had the Austrian empire renamed the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So, a bit like a politically correct latter day rugby administrator, his aim was to rename the British Empire the British & Irish Empire. It's hardly Tiocfaidh ár lá, is it?

You have to take a mental leap back to understand the attitudes of the day. The Empire was the great economic power block of the time. Wanting to remain part of it, while gaining a certain degree of self rule, was probably analogous to those who want to remain part of the EU today. Of course we want our own sovereignty, however impaired it has become, but we want to be part of the larger economic power block too.

At the moment....

Del.Monte · 18-01-2015 8:04pm

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Dublin had quite a unionist population back then. Just remember the leader of unionism sectarian bigot Edward Carson back then was from Dublin, and in the 1918 election unionists won 3 seats in Dublin. Probably a fair few unionists from the north may have come down to see her, I wonder did her 'majesty' bring one of her Scottish Ghillies (hunter) with her for secret romance !!!! Hardly left it to the Irish peasants eh !!!!

Apparently she was quite fond of some Indian hot spices too !!

Little interest in her descendant though

The security lock-down in Dublin and the possibility of a repeat of the "Love Ulster" fiasco had more to do with the scarcity of crowds but don't that get in the way of your AH rant.

Seemed she was quite popular in Cork where security was more relaxed.

?m=02&d=20110520&t=2&i=418732840&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=img-2011-05-20T221626Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-571686-1

?m=02&d=20110520&t=2&i=418732840&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=img-2011-05-20T221626Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-571686-1

Jesus. · 18-01-2015 10:53pm

Godot. wrote: »

Amazing scenes. The large crowds got me thinking...
How Unionist was the geographical area that is now the Republic of Ireland around that time? Were there many Irish people proud to be British and proud of Ireland's contribution to the United Kingdom?

I'm sure a lot were. However welcoming the Queen wouldn't mean anything. Sure didn't we give her as much of a welcome a couple of years ago?

btw, did FrattonFred give you those videos from his Q Victoria collection/shrine?

Jesus. · 18-01-2015 10:59pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

(1895-1905) third level education for Catholics

Arse, are you telling me that Irish Catholics weren't allowed go to college up until the turn of the 20th Century?

Fratton Fred · 18-01-2015 11:16pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Arse, are you telling me that Irish Catholics weren't allowed go to college up until the turn of the 20th Century?

You should read up on the history of Cork, Galway and Belfast universities.

Jesus. · 19-01-2015 12:14am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You should read up on the history of Cork, Galway and Belfast universities.

Me? It was Arsemageddon that made the claim. It sounds false to me.

Fratton Fred · 19-01-2015 9:37pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Me? It was Arsemageddon that made the claim. It sounds false to me.

It looked as though you were asking a question, rather than questioning a point.

Arsemageddon · 20-01-2015 5:33pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Arse, are you telling me that Irish Catholics weren't allowed go to college up until the turn of the 20th Century?

Nope, not what I meant.

Had my dates a little off. The 1908 Irish Universities Act reformed the way degrees were awarded by Irish Universities. Prior to this Trinity was the sole examining body for granting degrees in Ireland i.e degrees awarded by other Universities had to be approved by Trinity. Trinity had been given this right in 1882 and, understandably enough, the other universities say this as an anti-Catholic piece of legislation.

The 1908 act afforded the other universities (UCD, QUB, UCC, UCG) the right to independently grant degrees.

pedroeibar1 · 20-01-2015 8:09pm

Roman Catholics could attend Dublin University pre 1800. And also refer to what Fred wrote in #12 about Queens Colleges in Belfast, Cork and Galway.;)

Jesus. · 20-01-2015 8:34pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Roman Catholics could attend Dublin University pre 1800..;)

They could attend but weren't they barred from any positions of office within the college?

Fratton Fred · 20-01-2015 9:48pm

Jesus. wrote: »

They could attend but weren't they barred from any positions of office within the college?

The Queens universities were secular, but Catholics were barred from going there by the Pope and his cardinal in Ireland, as they were "godless".

Trinity was a church of Ireland university, so I guess the CofI had a say in who held the positions. However, I think the church and university were separated under the university of Ireland act in 1870 something.

Jesus. · 20-01-2015 10:25pm

I repeat, weren't they barred from positions of office within the college?

EDIT: Never mind, I've found out myself!

They were barred from Scholarships, Professorships and Fellowships until 1873.

dubhthach · 22-01-2015 10:54am

Mod

I fail to see what the visits of Queen Victoria have to do with the job practises within the "University of Dublin" (eg. TCD), thread has gone off topic.

Queen Victoria's visits to Dublin in 1897 & 1900

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