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2nd worst war for Irish?

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Comments

  • #102
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    nuac wrote: »
    Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe View Post

    Yes and their are others who will try and make the Warrington or Enniskillen bomb out to be an atomic explosion on a par with Nagasaki or Dresden.
    Warrington and Enniskillen were murders, not acts of war

    Well called out Nuac, Posts such as the one you quote are difficult to moderate but pointing out their stupidity is the best way of showing them for what they are. Well done IMO.


  • #103
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    More waffle.

    The topic is the “Second worst war for the Irish” – yet you have consistently dragged the posts away from the topic.
    Jesus. wrote: »
    Are you now telling me you never wrote that? There is documented proof you did.
    ??? I said you took a few words out of a sentence of mine and used them out of context – no more, no less.
    Jesus. wrote: »
    Can you tell me, for example, what compelled Anthony Perry to take the United Irish oath a full year before the outbreak of the '98?
    Lots of people took the U I oath at that time. Perry, from a gentleman farmer background, university educated, was part of a mindset that existed in both Europe and America at that time, just as there was a similar ‘meeting of minds’ in the late 1960’s (Paris, Kent State, Civil Rights, etc.) The ‘tool’ of bigotry was used by the Government to forment violence, to disrupt any unity between dissenter and papist. Playing the Orange card, it is called divide and conquer. The 1798 rebellion broke out on 23rd May, having been declared (and immediately betrayed) months earlier following a failed French landing. The country was ‘on edge’, Crown Forces were few and militias had been formed. Yes there were a few atrocities (as there were in France in 1968 and Kent in 1970), but that is what happens when a State feels under threat.. In 1798 the Authorities knew the Rebellion was due to break out, they managed to find and arrest Perry who was tortured. That happened ONE day before the Rebellion actually broke out – it does not support your argument that Government Forces tried to force the population to rebel by using rape and pitch-capping BEFORE the Rebellion broke out. You gave one source, a BBC document that you either misread or deliberately misinterpreted. In post #81 I gave you a correct source and proof that the events you spoke about happened AFTER the outbreak. Also you ignore the sequence of events as I pointed out (in detail) in my post #84 - the facts are there for you to look up.
    Jesus. wrote: »
    Where do you want me to start regarding your lies?... Yours and Frederick's propaganda knows no bounds, so much so that Fred has now joined you in running to the teacher (Moderator) because he can't counter the arguments put before his old Colonial, oppressive mindset. Time to see the light my boy
    Ad hominem and plain rude, like most of the remarks you make. If you disagree, fine, but show facts, not waffle and stupid remarks. (You have still to respond on the questions I posed on your false claims on the Penal Laws.) I have supported by arguments with several referenced sources, you just dismiss them and waffle on with spurious attributions and invective.

    Frankly, you are not worth the trouble, the reference to the Moderators was in regard to insults and topic drift. I have more interesting things to be doing that arguing with a rude person who misquotes, falsely arributes and clearly has a twisted agenda that is not supported by any historical knowledge. And the level of 'modding' has been disappointingly poor given the insults. I'm out of this thread,
    Jesus wrote:
    Pedro are you from the UK?
    In post #56
    Jesus wrote:
    EDIT: On second thoughts, I can't be 100% certain that I didn't write something and delete it. You could be right Pedro lad.
    In post #70 (Yes, you did delete several sentences of nast invective)
    Jesus wrote:
    Pedro for fukk's sake, its you who's submerged the thread in BS, sarcasm and false construction.
    In post #76
    Jesus wrote:
    Whatever your reasons are for distorting the facts (maybe you had your schoolbag stolen by someone dressed as a Leprechaun when you were a child?), it is not a noble craft, being a revisionist with an agenda.
    In post #76
    Jesus wrote:
    You, Sir, are a complete chancer
    in #81
    Jesus wrote:
    Now turn off those red, white and blue Xmas lights you have all over the front of your house. Its very late and they're dazzling the motorists
    In #85
    Jesus wrote:
    Comedy gold
    in #89
    Jesus wrote:
    What a ridiculous reply.
    In #91


  • #104
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    I'm waffling? I asked you why Perry took the oath, not when he was pitch-capped. More deflection from you.

    He took the oath a full year prior to the outbreak of the rebellion because of Government repression (some might call it terrorism) including torture and indeed murder (remember Willy Orr?), judicial or otherwise. Yes, that is what Governments do when they're afraid but it wasn't a just Government, it was a tyrannical one. Naturally an oppressive regime gets afraid when it feels threatened and will hit out at the people. You seem to be trying to excuse the actions of said Government and you don't like it that you've been called out on it. So much so that you continue to cry like a child to the Moderators because you don't like what you're hearing.

    Grow up Pedro and stop behaving like an infant that's just had its rattler taken from them.


  • #105
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Jesus. wrote: »
    So, Frederick the Great, what do you make of Pedro finally talking a bit of sense?

    Infraction for goading comment.

    Mod


  • #106
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    More waffle.

    ...

    Frankly, you are not worth the trouble, the reference to the Moderators was in regard to insults and topic drift. I have more interesting things to be doing that arguing with a rude person who misquotes, falsely arributes and clearly has a twisted agenda that is not supported by any historical knowledge. And the level of 'modding' has been disappointingly poor given the insults. I'm out of this thread,

    You will find modding this quote "waffle" which you have contributed to is not an easy task.

    Infraction to you as part of the moderating which you request.

    Moderator.


  • #107
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Jesus. wrote: »

    Grow up Pedro and stop behaving like an infant that's just had its rattler taken from them.

    Trolling infraction. 2nd infraction in thread = 1 week ban.

    Moderator


  • #108
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Jesus. wrote: »

    You have some neck on you, Mr Englishman, I'll give you that. .

    More trolling - ban is extended to 2 weeks.

    Moderator


  • #109
    ChicagoJoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    nuac wrote: »
    Warrington and Enniskillen were murders, not acts of war
    Well I'll let people judge that for themselves whether Dresden or Hiroshima (carried out by the USAF) were gross acts of murder, don't know if any Irishmen were involved.

    Russians-collected-bodies-3-weeks-after-Dresden.jpg

    04-Bodies.jpg


  • #110
    ChicagoJoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Well called out Nuac, Posts such as the one you quote are difficult to moderate but pointing out their stupidity is the best way of showing them for what they are. Well done IMO.
    As you can see below that my post was a reply to Santa Cruz's post and it's context of exaggeration ;)
    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    The figures have been assessed by a number of historians with access to military records, casualties lists, widow pensions applications etc. There are certain people who won't accept that of course and will try to make the Kilmichael Ambush the primary military action of the 20th century

    Yes and their are others who will try and make the Warrington or Enniskillen bomb out to be an atomic explosion on a par with Nagasaki or Dresden.


  • #111
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Well I'll let people judge that for themselves whether Dresden or Hiroshima (carried out by the USAF) were gross acts of murder....................

    More OT and childish Brit-bashing - it is a pity that you are unable to see beyond your bias and look at the historical facts of aerial warfare.

    The Germans were the first to use aerial bombardment, as far back as August 1914. Squadrons of Taube monoplanes flew sorties over Paris and when crowds gathered to gaze at the unusual sight they were bombed. The French retaliated in November, with attacks aimed at targets such as railway junctions. Next, on Christmas Eve 1914 a German seaplane dropped bombs on Dover (they hit a vegetable patch, injuring a guy who was picking sprouts for his Christmas dinner!) and the following day another plane dumped its bombs on a church in north Kent, where a Christmas wedding was in progress.

    Thenceforth, in keeping with the German General Staff's doctrine of Schrecklichkeit (‘frightfulness’ - or ‘shock and awe’) the bombing campaign became increasingly targeted at civilians. Raids by German airships began in January 1915. Famously, Kaiser Wilhelm ordered no bombs were to be dropped west of Charing Cross, to avoid injuring his cousins in Buckingham Palace. Those were acts of war, and quite random, given the technology of the day. Positioning two strategically timed bombs outside a chemist and McDonalds is murder.

    And apart from a few tear-gas grenades used by the French in 1914, the Germans were also the first to use gas as a weapon when using chlorine gas they killed about 20,000 soldiers and an indefinite but huge number of civilians in the 2nd Battle of Ypres. And the Germans also were the first to use mustard gas against the Russians at Riga in September 1917.


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  • #112
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    nuac wrote: »
    Warrington and Enniskillen were murders, not acts of war

    And Dresden & Nagasaki were not "acts of war" they were war crimes.

    And Enniskillen & Warrington were horrible sicken tragedies but they were not aimed at killing innocent people. If the IRA's goal was just to kill a lot of people they could have easily done so. The Manchester 1996 bomb was the largest bomb detonated on mainland Britain ever. If the IRA's goal was to kill people they would not have given a 50 minute warning to evacuate 80,000+ plus people. You can work work out for yourself how many people would have been killed if it wasn't for the warning.


  • #113
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    And Dresden & Nagasaki were not "acts of war" they were war crimes.

    And Enniskillen & Warrington were horrible sicken tragedies but they were not aimed at killing innocent people. If the IRA's goal was just to kill a lot of people they could have easily done so. The Manchester 1996 bomb was the largest bomb detonated on mainland Britain ever. If the IRA's goal was to kill people they would not have given a 50 minute warning to evacuate 80,000+ plus people. You can work work out for yourself how many people would have been killed if it wasn't for the warning.

    Why didn't they detonate the Warrington bomb st 4am, why do it on a Saturday lunchtime?


  • #114
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Why didn't they detonate the Warrington bomb st 4am, why do it on a Saturday lunchtime?

    I'm not sure. I did say already there was evidence to suggest it wasn't actually the IRA. I'm not saying it wasn't the IRA just saying there is some evidence there, but it's hard to turn it into proof. Just like there is evidence to suggest the Dublin & Monaghan bombings were not the sole work of the UVF & were helped by British forces, but again it's hard to turn that into proof.

    If it was the IRA. Well an IRA ASU was arrested for a previous bombing in Warrington about a week before the tragic bombing that killed the 2 kids. My guess is if it was the IRA the police hadn't caught the whole ASU & what ever was left behind of the unit was inexperienced & strategical & very political unaware. From the IRA's point of view their 90's mainland campaign was going very well up until that point. From the start with the Downing Street mortar attack serving as a big propaganda coup & a few months earlier they blew up the Baltic exchange which cost the British government a right few bob & until Warrington largely avoided large number of civilian causalities. So it doesn't make any sense why they would put the whole campaign at risk by trying to kill civilians. There's a good documentary about the bombings made in 2013 for the 20th anniversary which gave me a lot of info I didn't know before, for example the codeword given for the warnings was never used by the IRA before & was never used by them again.


  • #115
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    The loyalists were killed as a reprisal for the ongoing burning, looting and rapes across the south east.


    So that's OK, then. :confused:


  • #116
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    So that's OK, then. :confused:

    Puts it into context though doesn't it?


  • #117
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Mod

    Closing thread, discussion of the Troubles or of actions carried out by the Allies during the second world war aren't relevant. Thread is an absolute trainwreck.


This discussion has been closed.
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