Stove

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 3:13pm #1

Recently had a stove installed and there seems to be a problem. There is practically no heat from it, even after being lit for hours!! We had an engineer out as the installer said it was the stove that was the problem but the engineer said it was the installer...

Anyway, my question is, what way should the insert be connected to the chimney? When its lit the wall behind the fireplace gets really hot leading me to believe that all the heat is disappearing out the top and into some void. So I took a plate off the inside of the stove and stuck my hand up and as I thought, theres a huge void, even though the installer said it had been filled.

Should this void be there? Should there be some sort of adapter connecting it directly to the chimney? Is there anything else I need to check?

Thanks

Froststop · 06-01-2014 3:25pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Recently had a stove installed and there seems to be a problem. There is practically no heat from it, even after being lit for hours!! We had an engineer out as the installer said it was the stove that was the problem but the engineer said it was the installer...

Anyway, my question is, what way should the insert be connected to the chimney? When its lit the wall behind the fireplace gets really hot leading me to believe that all the heat is disappearing out the top and into some void. So I took a plate off the inside of the stove and stuck my hand up and as I thought, theres a huge void, even though the installer said it had been filled.

Should this void be there? Should there be some sort of adapter connecting it directly to the chimney? Is there anything else I need to check?

Thanks

Have you any technical spec for the stove?

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 3:34pm

I think this is it

http://www.firewarm.ie/insert_stove

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 3:37pm

Had never seen those diagrams until I went looking for you. From what I can tell there's a huge void behind the stove but that should be filled? I can literally put my arm around the back of the fire when going out the top of the stove

Froststop · 06-01-2014 3:54pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Had never seen those diagrams until I went looking for you. From what I can tell there's a huge void behind the stove but that should be filled? I can literally put my arm around the back of the fire when going out the top of the stove

Found this, hope it helps:
Chimney
The chimney height and the position of the chimney terminal should conform to Building Regulations. Check that the chimney is in good condition, dry, free from cracks and obstructions. The diameter of the flue should not be less than 125mm and not more than 200mm. If any of these requirements are not met, the chimney should be lined by a suitable method. The chimney must be swept before connection to the stove.

Where the chimney is believed to have previously served an open fire installation, it is possible that the higher flue gas temperature from the stove may loosen deposits that were previously firmly adhered, with the consequent risk of flue blockage. It is therefore recommended that the chimney be swept a second time within a month of regular use after installation. If you have any doubts about the suitability of your chimney, consult your local dealer/stockist.

If there is no existing chimney then either a prefabricated block chimney or a twin-walled insulated stainless steel flue to BS 4543 can be used. These chimneys must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and Building Regulations.

Flue Draught
A flue draught of minimum 12 Pa to a maximum 25 Pa is required for satisfactory appliance performance. The flue draught should be checked under fire at
high output and, if it exceeds the recommended maximum, a draught stabiliser must be fitted so that the rate of burning can be controlled and to prevent overfiring.

Connection to the Chimney
It is essential that all gaps between the stove and fireplace fascia or chimney-flue are sealed and made airtight. This appliance is not suitable for installation in a shared flue system.

The chimney must be accessible for cleaning. This insert stove should be removed at least once a year and cleaned.

Material Clearances

All non-combustible walls closer than 400mm to the stove should be at least 75mm thick. In all instances the back wall of the fireplace recess and the hearth should be made of non-combustible material. Allow an apron of at least 300mm at the front of the stove and 150mm on either side. The hearth on which the stove is to be placed should not be less than 125mm thick and should be in accordance with the current building regulations.

Safety Distances from Combustible Surfaces:
Side/Front
San Remo Insert 4KW Stove 600mm

http://www.firewarm.ie/pdf/instructions/Firewarm-Insert-Stove.doc

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:01pm

Cheers for that. I did download the word doc and it looks like the void above the stove is way too big and the heat is going everywhere but out the front of the stove, would that be correct?

I know it's hard to tell when it's just my description to go on but I'm looking for all the information I can get before ringing the installer again. He has been down 4 times now including installation. Each time he puts some kind of sand substance above the stove and it works for a day or two and then nothing. When I put my arm up there was alot of lose debris so I think it's just falling away after a day or two

The chimney was swept a day or two prior to installation, just as an fyi

Thanks for the help so far!

Avns1s · 06-01-2014 4:06pm

My opinion for what it's worth is that your biggest problem is that you have installed an inset stove which creates more expectation than actual heat.

It stands to reason that as its sitting in the fireplace and heat rises, and also that the surface of the stove exposed to the room is small by comparison to a normal stove, and therefore, less heat will transfer to the room.

I don't know whether its right or wrong but those inset stoves are often fitted exactly as yours is.

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:13pm

Avns1s wrote: »

My opinion for what it's worth is that your biggest problem is that you have installed an inset stove which creates more expectation than actual heat.

It stands to reason that as its sitting in the fireplace and heat rises, and also that the surface of the stove exposed to the room is small by comparison to a normal stove, and therefore, less heat will transfer to the room.

I don't know whether its right or wrong but those inset stoves are often fitted exactly as yours is.

That was my exact thinking but I was told that for the size of the room, an average sitting room, this thing would be great! I know what you're saying and it makes logical sense but there is no heat off the thing at all! I could sit 2 feet from it and barely feel anything. It states 4kw and 65% efficiency, surely I should atleast feel a bit of heat!?

Froststop · 06-01-2014 4:19pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Cheers for that. I did download the word doc and it looks like the void above the stove is way too big and the heat is going everywhere but out the front of the stove, would that be correct?

I would think that the back should be filled and the connection between the stove and the chimney should have a peace of flexy flue liner fitted, I could be wrong.

I have never heard of anyone having this problem with an inset stove, usually people a delighted with the performance.

Froststop · 06-01-2014 4:20pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

That was my exact thinking but I was told that for the size of the room, an average sitting room, this thing would be great! I know what you're saying and it makes logical sense but there is no heat off the thing at all! I could sit 2 feet from it and barely feel anything. It states 4kw and 65% efficiency, surely I should atleast feel a bit of heat!?

Are you 100% sure there isn't a baffle missing?

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:21pm

Froststop wrote: »

Are you 100% sure there isn't a baffle missing?

A what?

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:22pm

Sorry, just googled it. No that's definitely there. That's what I removed to put my arm up

Avns1s · 06-01-2014 4:24pm

Froststop wrote: »

I would think that the back should be filled and the connection between the stove and the chimney should have a peace of flexy flue liner fitted, I could be wrong.

I have never heard of anyone having this problem with an inset stove, usually people a delighted with the performance.

I can see how you would fit a flexi flue liner all the way to the top but I cannot understand how you will fill the void behind and above the inset stove.

I don't think changing to the flexi flue will make much if any difference.

You might be right about the baffle though.

Avns1s · 06-01-2014 4:25pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Sorry, just googled it. No that's definitely there. That's what I removed to put my arm up

What are you burning as a matter of interest?

Its normal for the fireplace etc to warm up above the stove over a few hours.

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:27pm

Avns1s wrote: »

What are you burning as a matter of interest?

Its normal for the fireplace etc to warm up above the stove over a few hours.

Stove fuel, the little nugget things. I understand that around it will get warm but the concrete wall behind the fire place is almost as hot as the bloody stove!

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:28pm

Avns1s wrote: »

I can see how you would fit a flexi flue liner all the way to the top but I cannot understand how you will fill the void behind and above the inset stove.

I don't think changing to the flexi flue will make much if any difference.

You might be right about the baffle though.

In the diagram from the link above it shows hardly any room around the back and top of the stove, there's a huge void behind this one, that's what I thought might be the problem

MugMugs · 06-01-2014 4:31pm

When I had mine put in we had to put a fireback into place first as it was initially rigged for gas....... this filled the void. Then when the stove was put in the surrounding area was packed with vermiculite.

It doesn't sound like your installer did this OP.

What was in there before the stove?

Froststop · 06-01-2014 4:32pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Stove fuel, the little nugget things. I understand that around it will get warm but the concrete wall behind the fire place is almost as hot as the bloody stove!

I think your loosing the heat out the back and with out a flue it going straight up the chimney, resulting in the heat loss being to great and not allowing the front to heat.

Avns1s · 06-01-2014 4:32pm

The diagram shows a cross section through the flue outlet of the stove. If you were to compare your cross section on a diagram like that, there may be little difference.

Is the stove sealed well around its edges where it meets the fireplace?

Froststop · 06-01-2014 4:34pm

MugMugs wrote: »

When I had mine put in we had to put a fireback into place first as it was initially rigged for gas....... this filled the void. Then when the stove was put in the surrounding area was packed with vermiculite.

It doesn't sound like your installer did this OP.

What was in there before the stove?

May have hit the nail on the head there!

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:34pm

MugMugs wrote: »

When I had mine put in we had to put a fireback into place first as it was initially rigged for gas....... this filled the void. Then when the stove was put in the surrounding area was packed with vermiculite.

It doesn't sound like your installer did this OP.

What was in there before the stove?

An open fire. Vermiculite, is that a hard substance, kinda looks like dry plaster? That's the stuff that was breaking away when I put my arm above the stove

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:36pm

Avns1s wrote: »

The diagram shows a cross section through the flue outlet of the stove. If you were to compare your cross section on a diagram like that, there may be little difference.

Is the stove sealed well around its edges where it meets the fireplace?

Yep, some kind of clear filler, seems well sealed to me

brightkane · 06-01-2014 4:38pm

i have a similar stove installed about 2 months now.

they took out the hearth of the open fire, slid it into position, insulsted in the void and also commected it directly to the chimney flue, so at the top of the stop there is a pipe commenting it to the chimney, if that makes sence.

For what its worth ours is great for heat,

MugMugs · 06-01-2014 4:40pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

An open fire. Vermiculite, is that a hard substance, kinda looks like dry plaster? That's the stuff that was breaking away when I put my arm above the stove

So the Insert went in against the fireback that was there?

If there's a void present between stove and back that you can feel, then it sounds to me like you're pissing heat out everywhere but where it's meant to be.

Vermiculite
zspengzhang.360182836_std.jpg

I'd be calling that installer back and demanding action.

Froststop · 06-01-2014 4:52pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Yep, some kind of clear filler, seems well sealed to me

I may be corrected here but I have never seen a clear heat resistant filler, have they just used clear silicone? If so cowboy springs to mind!

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:52pm

I'd imagine so Mugs.

Like I said, there's a huge void all around the top and for as far as I can reach at the back. So this should be filled? What about connecting it to the chimney or should it just be filled so that there is little spacearound the stove and between stove and chimney?

Sorry for all the questions. Installer is supposedly coming tomorrow so I want to be ready and have as much info as possible

Thanks again for all the replies

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 4:55pm

Froststop wrote: »

I may be corrected here but I have never seen a clear heat resistant filler, have they just used clear silicone? If so cowboy springs to mind!

It would seem so and yeah, I was thinking that myself

MugMugs · 06-01-2014 5:01pm

By UK requirments, it should be connected to the flue however I did a bit of looking into it and I am testemant to what I did.

I had a slope built on top of the stove itself and further packed with vermiculite. The flue serves the stove well and there's no draw issue. The reason I did the slope was so when the flue was being cleaned all debris would fall back into the stove and not around it.

Basically, I don't have an issue with no connector (others here do though) but it should be a very tight and sealed unit inside.

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 5:03pm

Right, sure I'll see how tomorrow goes and get back to ye. I haven't been there when he was back before so I won't be happy till it's filled properly this time, hopefully it gets sorted. Thanks again lads

kippy · 06-01-2014 5:06pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Recently had a stove installed and there seems to be a problem. There is practically no heat from it, even after being lit for hours!! We had an engineer out as the installer said it was the stove that was the problem but the engineer said it was the installer...

Anyway, my question is, what way should the insert be connected to the chimney? When its lit the wall behind the fireplace gets really hot leading me to believe that all the heat is disappearing out the top and into some void. So I took a plate off the inside of the stove and stuck my hand up and as I thought, theres a huge void, even though the installer said it had been filled.

Should this void be there? Should there be some sort of adapter connecting it directly to the chimney? Is there anything else I need to check?

Thanks

The engineer who was out, what type of engineer was he and if he was able to point the finger at the installer, did he explicitly say what the issue was with the install?
Surely if he is blaming the installer he should be able to advise to as to what the issue is, and then you can pass it onto the installer, instead of second guessing what the engineer should have already identified.

KERSPLAT! · 06-01-2014 5:11pm

kippy wrote: »

The engineer who was out, what type of engineer was he and if he was able to point the finger at the installer, did he explicitly say what the issue was with the install?
Surely if he is blaming the installer he should be able to advise to as to what the issue is, and then you can pass it onto the installer, instead of second guessing what the engineer should have already identified.

The engineer was sent out by the manufacturer as requested by us. They both met on site. The engineer inspected it and did something like checking where the air was going, I wasn't there so not exactly sure. He said it was a problem with the installation, that's all I know. Cost €80 for the engineer and of course the installer was out the door as the invoice was handed to us

Stove

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