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Watch this Tonight - Breeding

  • 18-05-2009 9:57am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭


    Tonight on Tv3

    Pedigree and show dog breeding expose and all the health issues involved from bad breeding practices.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭Munster Gal


    This show was shown already on one of the UK channels. It will horrify, enrage and sadden you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,613 ✭✭✭✭Clare Bear


    I saw the ads for this, I know I won't be able for it so I won't watch it but it's good to bring it to people's attention.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭kildara


    BBC One reveals shocking truth about pedigree dog breeding in UK

    A pug gasps for breath, his face so flat he damages his eyes if he bumps into things; a cavalier King Charles spaniel writhes in agony and must be put to sleep to end its pain; a distraught owner holds his beloved boxer who is fitting uncontrollably...

    Two years in the making, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, lifts the lid on the true extent of health and welfare problems in pedigree dogs in the UK.

    Seventy-five per cent of the seven million dogs in the UK are pedigrees, and they cost their owners over £10m in vet fees every week.

    This in-depth investigation suggests they are in serious trouble, plagued by genetic disease due to decades of inbreeding.

    They are also suffering acute problems because of the showring's emphasis on looks over and above function and health.

    Some physical traits required by the Kennel Club's breed standards have inherent health problems (short faces, wrinkling, screw-tails, dwarfism) while other problems occur because of exaggerations bred into dogs by breeders trying to win rosettes.

    Deliberate mating of dogs that are close relatives is common practice and the Kennel Club continues to register dogs bred from mother-to-son and brother-to-sister matings.

    Scientists at Imperial College, London, recently found that pugs in the UK are so inbred that, although there are 10,000 of them, it is the equivalent of just 50 distinct individuals – making them more genetically compromised than the giant panda.

    Steve Jones, Professor of Genetics, UCL, says: "People are carrying out breeding which would be, first of all, be entirely illegal in humans and secondly is absolutely insane from the point of view of the health of the animals."

    He adds: "In some breeds they are paying a terrible, terrible price in genetic disease."

    The film exposes the devastating consequences of such genetic disease for dogs and the distress it causes their owners.

    Disturbing footage is shown of a cavalier King Charles spaniel writhing in agony due to syringomyelia, estimated to affect up to a third of the breed.

    They have been bred with skulls too small for their brains, explains veterinary neurologist Clare Rusbridge: "The cavalier's brain is like a size 10 foot that has been shoved into a size six shoe – it doesn't fit."

    Boxers suffer from several life-threatening health issues – including heart disease and a very high rate of cancer, especially brain tumours.

    There are no official figures to say how many boxers suffer from epilepsy but in some breeds it is 20 times the rate found in humans. Two-year-old Zak is filmed while fitting and the distress the disease causes for him and his owners is obvious.

    The film also demonstrates how some breeders produce dogs with pronounced physical attributes – "exaggerations" – in their efforts to attract a dog show judge's eye.

    The breed standards are set by the Kennel Club but are open to interpretation and the film shows how, as fashion changes, so do the dogs, leading to serious health and welfare problems in some breeds.

    Bulldogs, for example, have been bred to be such an unnatural shape that most can no longer mate or give birth unassisted.

    The RSPCA's Chief Vet Mark Evans says: "The show world is about an obsession, about beauty, and there is a ridiculous concept that that is how we should judge dogs…

    "It takes no account of your temperament, your fitness for purpose potentially as a pet animal – and that to me just makes absolutely no sense at all."

    The film also exposes famous show champions that continue to father puppies despite having serious inherited disease, and demonstrates that some breeders cull perfectly healthy puppies on purely cosmetic grounds.

    As the filmmaker Jemima becomes increasingly concerned with what she uncovers, she challenges the Kennel Club.

    The Kennel Club, however, robustly defends its position as the guardian of dog health, pointing out the initiatives it has taken to improve pedigree dog health – including their accredited breeder scheme which sets a code of conduct for breeders and asks them to make use of health screening schemes.

    It also insists that "the vast majority of dog breeds are healthy".

    Ultimately, the film concludes that far from enough is being done.

    As Professor Jones says: "If the dog breeders insist on going further down that road, I can say with confidence really that there is a universe of suffering waiting for many of these breeds – and many if not most of these breeds will not survive.

    "They will get so inbred that they will be unable to reproduce and their genes will come to a dead end."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭anniehoo


    If you do watch this show remember not to tar all breeders with the same brush. Its a very disturbing documentary but this programme doesnt provide an unbiased view so please bear that in mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    And if you wish to discuss this afterwards, watch what you say.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    I thought that this was a different programme to the BBC one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Nope. It is a repeat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    Seen it aswell the last time. Had to go check me poor little ruby (mini king charles). She was grand but I was paranoid after watching the show.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 200 ✭✭Crafty-Chel


    i have it bookmarked to watch it, but im not sure i want to after what some of ye have said... but its no harm that some of these people are being brought into the spotlight coz its awful what they do to dogs...

    once a is enough to breed a dog...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    Yes it is a very disturbing program to watch. however it is doing a service to the public who would be totally ignorant to what goes on behind closed doors in the dog breeding industry.

    Annihoo, valid point there. folks please remember that there are a lot of reputable breeders out there who are doing things right and treat their dogs right. dog breeding SHOULD NOT be a dirty word. Proper breeders are breeding for type, temperament and health.

    Please guys be careful of what you say as we don't want this thread to degenarate in to name calling and bitching.

    We just want to help people who don't know much about dogs to be careful where they buy their pups so that they don't buy heartache.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    Its very hard to watch, but i found the history behind the club and the whole Nazi connection fascinating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    It would help if you gave us the time the programme was going out at

    I don't have a TV guide and teletext doesn't work on my TV


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    9 bells


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭tallus


    Watching that show now and it's pretty disturbing tbh.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Ah this nearly has me in tears already, had to pick up one of my dogs to give me a cuddle. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭star-pants


    Only 6minutes in and some of the images honestly have me in tears.

    I'm glad my dogs are down with my mother and not hearing/seeing this


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 303 ✭✭tazwaz


    i feel sick.. the poor dogs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    The bulldog has become such a ridiculous breed, I think it should be allowed to die out


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭star-pants


    It is very interesting though, all the information is good. Obviously it does also show that not all breeders are bad and not all purebreds are to be tarred with the same brush.

    My dog n pup are sleeping here beside me and I know I'd try to move heaven and earth if anything were wrong with them. And I choose health over fashion regarding their coats etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭animalcrazy


    I ran in but just caught the last 5 minutes of it, if it is going to be repeated let me know.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    I'm glad they named and shamed some of the breeders including that fake-tanned bottle blonde with the cavalier

    And they asked the Kennel Club guy if he'd have a baby with his daughter...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I ran in but just caught the last 5 minutes of it, if it is going to be repeated let me know.
    Highly unlikely. It might be on the TV3 website.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭animalcrazy


    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭GalwayKiefer


    That Ridgeback breeder at the start who was complaining about "problems with young vets" not willing to put down ridgeless pups really got under my skin. Very interesting programme, hard to watch at times. <smiles looking at my two healthy cross-breeds>


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭nearly


    Demonique wrote: »
    some of the breeders including that fake-tanned bottle blonde with the cavalier

    Wow, I don't want to single out people for plastic surgery... but when I saw the contortions of her own face and body, it's easy to make a correlation. There's a little more than a fake tan going on there.

    Nothing about health or well-being, and twisted into some weird ideal.

    Whoah.

    Not sure why we need to be careful what we say here on the board? I'm very new here, but I assume everyone posting in the "Animal & Pet issues" forum cares about animal welfare.

    The weird thing is, I'm sure those dog breeders also love their dogs dearly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Do not post links to youtube. Thank you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭animalcrazy


    Oh right sorry


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭animalcrazy


    I'm just on the bit where the boxer has seizures, those are so scary my cat had that :( but she had to be PTS cause of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭anniehoo


    GalKiefer wrote: »
    That Ridgeback breeder at the start who was complaining about "problems with young vets" not willing to put down ridgeless pups really got under my skin.
    Yeh even though ive seen it before that bit still grates my nerves. Unfortunately sometimes its impossible to change an "old school" mind. The bit about not listening to "a bunch of scientists" makes me even angrier. Although this programme is not a fair representation of pedigree breeders im glad it was shown again. Far far too many people buy a puppy with their "eyes wide shut", having no clue about breed traits and probable genetic problems down the line.

    If this programme does scare monger people into researching and ethically buying a puppy then all the better for it.

    It shouldnt put people off buying a pedigree dog but if it makes people think before they buy then i think its very valuable.

    Mongrels FTW :D:D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭anniehoo


    nearly wrote: »

    Not sure why we need to be careful what we say here on the board? I'm very new here, but I assume everyone posting in the "Animal & Pet issues" forum cares about animal welfare. .

    Its been done before thats all http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055358763&highlight=PEDIGREE+DOGS+EXPOSED


  • Registered Users Posts: 41 bhaneasa


    I watched this tonight. Very good, but shocking. A few minutes in to it, and I was close to sobbing. Very, very sad.
    I think the tv3 website has a 'catch-up' section where you can view past programs. Logged onto it a while ago, but it doesn't seem to be there yet, might take a while.
    Selfish, vanity-driven owners. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Lucy Locket


    OH my god I'm completely paranoid after this show, and so worried about my king charles. He does alot of scratching, and he gets his flea treatments from the vet, I comb through him but yet he still scratches, I'm worried that he might have that syringomelia :(:(:confused:. He is always scratching the back of his front paws, then his neck and face, and I've combed through him to see if anything is in there but can't find anything. I don't feed him chocolate or anything bad like that. He doesn't appear to be in pain when he is scratching, but he is always doing it. I'm so worried now:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    I understand it was a very scary, upsetting program for a lot of viewers. But it showed what has been going on for years. Totally illogical comment by some of those people. It also showed that if you go against them and don't do things their way you will not be thanked, e.g the lady campaigning for cavaliers. She is not at all liked. Also it's clear a lot of those people were willing to lie to the camera to cover up the truth.

    Infertility has become a big problem over the years, also dogs being born without their testicles.

    Remember, not every breeder has the same views as them, a lot of small breeders have been working away from those old ways so do not put them all in the same boat.

    Also see the thread on puppy farmms / sick dogs for more discussion on ethics in dog breeding. Also you will see very clearly that there is information guiding you on what you are not allowed to say re breeders / farmers etc. whish could be construed as libelous. We don't want the thread to be shut down, again.

    If you are a pet owner without much experience and the program FREAKED you out, don't overly panic. If there was something seriously wrong with your dog you would suspect you need to take him to the vet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭shinners007


    Having seen parts of this programme before, i was disgusted to watch it in full. The comment the breeder made about culling pups without a ridge on the back and killing perfectly healthy pups is disgraceful.
    As a breeder of boxers, i know only too well what has happened to pedigree dogs in this country - i get calls and emails from owners who's pets have heart disease, cancer, hair loss, allergies the list goes on and on.

    In my opinion the Kennel Club are most responsible - they over the years created Canine Breed Standards to suit human opinion - based on appearances alone ( eg' the german shepard showed on the programme last night yet still won despite hardly being able to walk straight). How many pedigree dogs now resemble their ancestors? It is shocking and this is what people have done over the years.

    Secondly show people: They have over the years and continue to breed to try get "a perfect example of the breed" - this being achieved by inbreeding and line breeding - the health never taken in to consideration and thus creating the vast number of genetical diseases associated with breeds. The life span of nearly all pedigree dogs has been reduced greatly. To make matters worse those top male dogs that won the shows where offered to stud to females - thus over time creating a new breed of pedigree dogs that would inevitably would be related somewhere in the lines - not to mention the spread of inhereted genetical diseases and illness for specific breeds. Then the majority of show people move on to their new "winner" and then the cycle continues - how many older once "show winner, with champion lines" ads do you see looking for new homes. The trophies are won, the stud fees collected maybe an offspring kept to continue show line success and thank you very much and good luck! Sad but true.

    Thridly: Bad breeders, they use a breeds popularity to make money from it. They breed from females twice a year and until the female is exhausted ( i must point out here again the kennel club has failed to ensure there are proper guidelines in place to prevent a female been bred from 2x in a year). Breeders that dont spend the money to health test there dogs prior to breeding and breeders who inbreed and line breed.:mad::mad: Yes the cost is expensive but you are effectively improving the health of a breed by doing so. Education and research needed also - and last nights programme will certainly create awareness to this problem.

    Fourthly: Those who continue to buy pedigree dogs that have not been tested and whose pedigree lines are closely related. People who are spending lots of money on PB's should be asking to see proof of hip scoring, heart testing, eye testing and up to date vaccine records of the sire and dam and written confirmation that the pups have been vaccined and vet checked. ( A reputable breeder will show these documents and explain the importance of testing dogs ).

    This is just my opinion - not all breeders are bad, a small few are trying to improve it but it is a hard battle ( espically sourcing dogs not related to your own). And hopefully people will be more aware of the problems out there and what to look out for.

    But the kennel clubs need to raise the bar and change rules and guidelines real fast otherwise nothing will change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    OH my god I'm completely paranoid after this show, and so worried about my king charles. He does alot of scratching, and he gets his flea treatments from the vet, I comb through him but yet he still scratches, I'm worried that he might have that syringomelia :(:(:confused:.

    You should bring him to the vet, at least you'll gain peace of mind if it turns out he doesn't have it.


    Does anyone else feel like rescuing a ridgeless Rhodesian puppy now? (I hear they are a handful and are very protective of their people though)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed

    According to this, a sequel is in plans.

    Margaret Carter was voted out of the Cavalier Breed club after she revealed the health problems of the Best in Show winner.

    The BBC won't be covering Crufts 2009, Pedigree and Hills Pet nutrition both pulled their sponsorship and several animal welfare charities including the RSPCA have cut their ties as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 200 ✭✭Crafty-Chel


    Demonique wrote: »
    I'm glad they named and shamed some of the breeders including that fake-tanned bottle blonde with the cavalier

    And they asked the Kennel Club guy if he'd have a baby with his daughter...


    I agree with you, i cant believe she lied to the camera like that... im still angry over it today...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭sickle


    Demonique wrote: »

    Does anyone else feel like rescuing a ridgeless Rhodesian puppy now? (I hear they are a handful and are very protective of their people though)

    we got one a few years ago and he is the biggest baby, not over protective at all, will go waggle and roll over at any strangers that come in the house/or that he meets on the beach!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    sickle wrote: »
    we got one a few years ago and he is the biggest baby, not over protective at all, will go waggle and roll over at any strangers that come in the house/or that he meets on the beach!

    Did you get him as a pup or an older dog?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭sickle


    Demonique wrote: »
    Did you get him as a pup or an older dog?

    We got him when he was about 3 months old, apparently abandoned due to the lack of the ridge.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    Hi Shinners

    Are there any boxer clubs that are nothing to do with the kc out there. Or any other breed clubs.

    I also hold the KC to blame for all the problems that exist with dogs. Their organisation is totally money orientated. And where there's money there's corruption. It's because of their bad breeding practices and those of the show people, who look down their noses at the small breeders.

    However from my own bits of research, few people actually seem all that bothered. there's a very apathetic mood out there from all corners, which allows all of these practises to continue, even puppy farming. From the "old boys club" at the top down to the person on the street.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭bushy...


    Just ban Crufts and all those , should take away the attraction for a lot of muppets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    bushy... wrote: »
    Just ban Crufts and all those , should take away the attraction for a lot of muppets.

    Now why would you do that?

    You cant tar all dog owners that show their dogs with the one brush, the majority of people that show their dogs do because they have a passion for it and its a hobbie that both the dog and owner love.

    Have you ever been to a dog show? Have you seen how happy the dogs are in the ring? tails wagging and in great form.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭sos33


    the only appear happy cause of the face-lifts


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    sos33 wrote: »
    the only appear happy cause of the face-lifts

    Oh you havent got a clue, have you ever been to a dog show? have you ever met any of the dogs at one? or know any of the owners of one? i doubt it, so please dont talk bullsh** when you dont know what you are talking about.
    I own a dog that i show too and he really enjoys the shows, i wouldnt do them if he didnt. If you go to any shows you will see how much they enjoy them.
    So please before you go making comments like that please wait til you have your facts straight, or evidence to back up your statements.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    In fairness to show people they do work very hard with their dogs going to shows. It's very time consuming and a long tiring day and if it was equated money wise then it wouldn't pay. They do it for the love of it. If they make their dog up to be a champion then yes I do think they should command high stud fees, they've certainly put in the work. On the whole they are bastions of the breed, striving for perfection and purity.

    If you want the best of quality or good healthy dogs then it comes at a price. If you want to pay bargain basement prices for dogs then your buying rubbish. Good breeders, even if it's breeder with only one dog, spend a lot of money time and effort on their dogs and puppies. Which is exactly why pedigree dogs are not cheap.

    It's just unfortunate that there have been some bad practises allowed to taint things.

    A big thumbs up to all those who care and are doing things right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Morganna


    i breed german shepherds i have to say none of mine look or move like the ones on tv.I have had german shepherd show breeders critize my dogs as my dogs look like the dogs from the 1940s ,I breed for movement bone substance temperament and im happy to say my dogs are correct.That programme had me in tears even though i had seen it before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭cloudy day


    Hi Morganna

    Well done for sticking to your guns and doing it right. It's not easy as you have some out there with elitist attitudes who think that they are the bastions and only they know how it should be done. Thankfully their flawed ways are now so apparent it cannot be argued against. Very unfortunate for the dogs who have suffered though.

    I hate those shepards with sloping backs, awful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    Seen this program before fair shocking stuff.
    I remember hearing stories from my father when I
    was a kid where he told me that dalmations used to be
    killed as pups if they did not have spots,

    I'm kind of OK with the idea where dogs over the years were bred
    a certain way for a purpose like working dog with characteristices in the breed
    were encouraged to perform a job function better.

    It does not sit as well with me when dogs are bred for
    toys or something that just looks nice for a person.
    like breeding a dog where the more folds of fat it has
    is better! crazy!

    There was also a series of programs which followed a group
    of show dog owners around to the various shows that they
    goto to try and win. My God! that was almost as shocking
    some of the poeple were just plain Nuts!

    I had wondered this year why Crufts was not on telly like
    previous years, I did not know that the BBC had decided to withdraw its coverage of Crufts for 2009
    partially because of this program.

    ~B


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Morganna


    I have a 1936 our dogs annual and it is shocking how much the breeds have changed


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