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Marriage aged 16?

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  • 19-11-2014 8:12pm
    #1
    Newstreet
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭


    In early 1800s Dublin, would a girl have married aged just 16, having a child at age 17?

    I am looking for Mary Levey, married in 1815. Five Levey families appear in the St.Michan and St.Mary Pro Cathedral parishes, who would be likely parents. Two have daughters Mary Levey, both baptised in 1799. No other Mary Levey appears at all. Mary had children between 1816 and 1836, and a possible son in 1839, so can't be baptised much before 1795.

    Five baptisms appear to Michael Levey and Harriet Mulholland between 1800 and 1808, but no Mary, though a common sponsor appears here with Mary's own family. Possibly there were earlier baptisms to Michael and Harriet which do not appear in the records, although hundreds of earlier records appear for everyone else. Typically, it is the one I want that doesn't appear anywhere. I tried St.Paul's parish on Rootsireland too, but nothing there, either.

    Surely out of five Levey families, she must have come from one of them, but without a baptism, there's no way of knowing. Could she have been baptised in 1799 and married in 1815? Any suggestions?


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    #2
    Waitsian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Newstreet wrote: »
    In early 1800s Dublin, would a girl have married aged just 16, having a child at age 17?


    Absolutely it's possible.
    Until 1972 when a law was passed that both men and women could not wed until the age of 16, Irish females could legally be wed at age 12 and males at age 14


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    #3
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    mod9maple wrote: »
    Absolutely it's possible.
    Source on your quote. Can't believe someone could legally marry so young until so recently.


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    #4
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    There are a number of young marriages in my family. One girl was married on her 13th birthday in 1856. That makes 16 seem ancient!


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    #5
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Matrimonial Causes & Marriage Act 1870 suggests that parental consent under the age of 21 is all that is required:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1870/en/act/pub/0110/sched1.html

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #6
    BowWow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭BowWow


    Certainly possible - had a family member marry at 16 in the early 1920's.


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    #7
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    My young brides had shotgun weddings unfortunately. One sadly didn't have much of a married life as her husband died within a few short years and left her an extremely young widow with a couple of children. Little chance of a second marriage then. So sad.


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    #8
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It wasn't unusual, and these weddings were by no means all shotgun weddings. And it wouldn't just have been in Ireland; a young woman of 16 would have been considered eminently marriageable in most western societies in the nineteenth century. The limiting factor was not emotional maturity but economic security; a man could not marry until he could support a family. No such consideration applied to women. If her education was complete and her health was good, there was no reason why a woman would not marry in her mid-teens.


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    #9
    Kevin McCloud
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭Kevin McCloud


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Source on your quote. Can't believe someone could legally marry so young until so recently.

    Be quite difficult to get a source since no internet in 1800.


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    #10
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Kevin McCloud wrote: »
    Be quite difficult to get a source since no internet in 1800.
    Pinkypink provides a source as to legality in post #5 above.

    As to the frequency of the practice of mid-teen marriage, marriages were registered in the nineteenth century, so data on age of marriage certainly exists, and no doubt there are studies on it. Like this one.


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    #11
    Waitsian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Kevin McCloud wrote: »
    Be quite difficult to get a source since no internet in 1800.

    :D


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    #12
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I also have a probable 16 year old marrying in 1847. She puts down that she was of full age on the marriage cert (COI) but later censuses would suggest she was only 16 or 17. Unfortunately no baptismal record uncovered. Damn the PRO fire.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #13
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    Kevin McCloud wrote: »
    Be quite difficult to get a source since no internet in 1800.
    Mod9maples post seem to suggest that until 1972, a 12 girl year old could marry. Something as recent as that should be verifiable. From what I recall a 16 year old could marry with parental consent within the last 20 years. I am asking about the plausibility of a 12 year old legal marrying in ireland as recently as 1972. This I find hard to believe.


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    #14
    dido2
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭dido2


    Theres some info here about the 1972 Change to when a woman could marry
    https://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/GRO-History.pdf

    Some minor changes were also made to the Marriages Acts. In 1956 the format of
    entries in the marriage registers were amended to omit the "rank or profession of the
    father" of the bride and groom, and record mother's maiden name. The Marriage Act
    1972, raised the minimum age for marriage to 16 years (the approval of the High
    Court has to be obtained in order to marry at a lower age).


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    #15
    CeannRua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Mod9maples post seem to suggest that until 1972, a 12 girl year old could marry. Something as recent as that should be verifiable. From what I recall a 16 year old could marry with parental consent within the last 20 years. I am asking about the plausibility of a 12 year old legal marrying in ireland as recently as 1972. This I find hard to believe.

    The age limits of 12 and 14 are taken from common law. Source - Law Reform Commission Paper: http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/consultation%20papers/wpAgeofMajority.htm

    See paragraph 4.4 and onwards


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    #16
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Mod9maples post seem to suggest that until 1972, a 12 girl year old could marry. Something as recent as that should be verifiable. From what I recall a 16 year old could marry with parental consent within the last 20 years. I am asking about the plausibility of a 12 year old legal marrying in ireland as recently as 1972. This I find hard to believe.
    Hard to believe or not, it was legal. (Subject, of course, to parental consent.)

    I doubt that it happened, though. While the state may have permitted a twelve-year old girl to marry, there would have been strong social disapprobation, plus I think the policy or canon law of most churches would have prevented them from celebrating such a wedding, so it would have to have been a civil wedding. And the number of civil wedddings in Ireland at the time was tiny.


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    #17
    kildarejohn
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭kildarejohn


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    While the state may have permitted a twelve-year old girl to marry, there would have been strong social disapprobation, plus I think the policy or canon law of most churches would have prevented them from celebrating such a wedding, .

    I think Peregrinus is mistaken in the above quote. According to THE LAW REFORM COMMISSION Working Paper No. 2 – 1977-
    "The marriage laws at the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922 and for the next fifty years may be summarised as follows: …
    Under the common law the minimum age for marriage, irrespective of religious belief, was 14 years for a male and 12 years for a female, i.e. the Canon Law ages."

    So Church law and Civil law both agreed that a girl could marry at 12.


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    #18
    boomerang
    Registered Users Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭boomerang


    Researching one family member lately, she was described as "under age" on her marriage cert. This was mid-1800s.


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    #19
    CeannRua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    boomerang wrote: »
    Researching one family member lately, she was described as "under age" on her marriage cert. This was mid-1800s.

    Not sure why you're posting this but in all likelihood, this just means she was under the age of legal majority i.e. 21 rather than under marriageable age as marriage wouldn't be valid in latter case.


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    #20
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    kildarejohn wrote: »
    I think Peregrinus is mistaken in the above quote. According to THE LAW REFORM COMMISSION Working Paper No. 2 – 1977-
    "The marriage laws at the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922 and for the next fifty years may be summarised as follows: …
    Under the common law the minimum age for marriage, irrespective of religious belief, was 14 years for a male and 12 years for a female, i.e. the Canon Law ages."

    So Church law and Civil law both agreed that a girl could marry at 12.
    Actually, the LRC is mistaken. Under Catholic canon law, the age of marriage was raised in 1917 to 16 for males, 14 for females (with a stipulation that marriages were not to be celebrated unless the parties were also of age to marry according to the local civil law).


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    #21
    kildarejohn
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭kildarejohn


    According to THE LAW REFORM COMMISSION Working Paper No. 2 – 1977-
    "The marriage laws at the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922 and for the next fifty years may be summarised as follows: …
    Under the common law the minimum age for marriage, irrespective of religious belief, was 14 years for a male and 12 years for a female, i.e. the Canon Law ages."
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Actually, the LRC is mistaken. Under Catholic canon law, the age of marriage was raised in 1917 to 16 for males, 14 for females (with a stipulation that marriages were not to be celebrated unless the parties were also of age to marry according to the local civil law).
    That's interesting. I think its a fair assumption that the new Irish State did not set out deliberately to have a law different from the Catholic Church, it just happens that nobody got around to changing the old law inherited from the British. Anyone know if the Anglican/Church of Ireland rules were the same as the RC?


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    #22
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    kildarejohn wrote: »
    Anyone know if the Anglican/Church of Ireland rules were the same as the RC?

    Surely prior to Disestablishment the CoI rules were the law?
    The Marriage Act of 1753 tightened the legislation on marriage. For a marriage to be valid it was necessary to publish banns in advance or have a licence and have the ceremony performed in a church. For those who had not attained 21 years, parental consent was necessary if the couple married by licence; marriages by banns were valid provided the parent of the minor did not actually forbid the banns. If parental consent was not forthcoming, some couples evaded the Act by travelling to Scotland, where that law did not apply. There also were rules on evening weddings and weddings outside a church premises.


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    #23
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Surely prior to Disestablishment the CoI rules were the law?
    Other way round. The civil law on marriage was implemented by the Established Church. They didn't have an independent set of canon laws on the subject.


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    #24
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Other way round. The civil law on marriage was implemented by the Established Church. They didn't have an independent set of canon laws on the subject.
    Correct, thanks, I phrased it badly.


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