HGV or VRT - Tough Decisions about Conversion

Richie15 · 29-10-2009 6:04am #1

Hi folks, bit of advice needed, if you please...

I've been thinking about converting a van for a good while but it's been mostly hypothetical so far. Now myself and a friend are planning a trip 'round Europe next summer, taking in some of the major music festivals, so if I want the van by then (I do!) I'd better get started on some definite plans...

Haven't got a budget in mind yet, but it's bound to be low. Somewhere between nothing at all and 5k including conversion and insurance. Yeh I know, that's very ambitious. Maybe just the deposit on the insurance... Anyway here are a few considerations:

I don't wanna be paying for campsites - wildcamping all the way, so a stealth conversion will be in order. No back windows means no minibusses. No pop-tops either.
Similarly, I don't wanna be paying huge sums in VRT, so I wanna go over the magic 3T mark. I've a Cat.C learner permit (plan on doing the test by then) so that shouldn't be a problem. If I'm not importing, do I still have to pay the VRT on converting to camper? If not, then I'll think smaller.
On the other hand, I certainly don't wanna spend too much on diesel, so not too big either.
And one that's not related to finance, I don't want sloping walls inside. They complicate the build, and I don't think they look nice.
I don't need seats in the back, since it's only myself and himself.

So all that seems to point to a large van like an Iveco Daily, or a small truck like a Mercedes Atego. Lets not forget that I'm only 20 (will turn 21 during the trip, incidentally) so insurance is a big consideration too. I know there's no hope of getting motorhome insurance under 25 so it's gonna have to be commercial, although as far as I know they do take into account the fact it's not actually for commercial use (that true?).

Then once I do have the van, I've to think about the inside. So far this is what I've come up with:

Electricity would be nice, but not essential. Without it, torches would provide light, just as in a tent.
Obviously a sink and cooker are required, so I'd need them. Without electricity, that means I'd have to use a hand-pumped or gravity-fed tap and a gas cooker. A wood-burning stove would be nicer, but then there's all sorts of safety implications, and a bloody great chimney sticking out the roof isn't very stealthy, is it? Also they're ridiculous money for what's essentially a tin box that you throw sticks in.
A shower would be nice too, but if I don't have the time/money, sure there's showers at the festivals, and during the gaps we can use baby wipes or something... We'll survive! But it would be nice.
A toilet is next to the engine on a list in order of how essential things are. Even if it's just a bucket lined with plastic bags, it's still essential. On the road, there might not be anywhere else. In the site, you don't wanna be queueing when you need- when you need to sit down, lets say.
One double and one single bed. The double is mine - I'm doing all the driving, so I deserve to stretch out a bit!
I was thinking if there's a luton body, I'd stick one bed up there, but on the other hand that'd be a handy place to throw the spare wheel and all that safety crap the Eurocops like us to carry, hi-vis, first aid kit etc. And also the fresh-water tank, so I could gravity-feed the taps.

So, what d'yehs think? Advice or comments on any aspect of this are very much appreciated.

<rant> On another note, himself told me if the van idea doesn't work out, we can just get a car instead. Sure what's the point in that! It'd cost the same, if not more. We'd have to book a hostel between festivals. We wouldn't have a toilet or a shower or anything. The motorhome campsite is a lot closer to the arena than the carpark. Can't figure out any benefits to the car! If anyone can enlighten me, I'm all ears...? Granted it would be easier than public transport, but so would a van! </rant>

peasant · 29-10-2009 10:19am

Considering your age (and the insurance implications) and your budget, I would suggest that you forget about a proper "conversion" altogether.

Get yourself a sound van and some MDF and build a provisional living space in the back that can be taken out again, if needs be.

-A porta potti toilet costs around 50 Euro and does the job better than a bucket

- a little camping gaz cooker (avilable with two rings as well) with camping gaz cartridges will answer for morning coffe and evening spaghetti and needs no gas installation

- two or three rooflights let light in and condensation out

- lots of canisters (there are foldable ones as well) for fresh and waste water

- an old kitchen sink, hacked to a manageble size, mounted on a podest with room for some canisters underneath and a little 12V (or battery powered) pump

- a raised platform in the back gives a good bed with lots of storage underneath

- gas lanterns can be nice and bright as well

...you get my drift

spaceHopper · 29-10-2009 11:51am

He's right you can get a good camping stove in ALDI they had them in over the summer and there should be some left. I wouldn't out in a sink though build in a basin into a locker so that it doesn't move about keep two 20 lrt drums under it one for fresh water and one for waste water use a funnel or pipe it in. Basically convert a van so that you'd be happy to live out of it but not into a full camper.

By the way France has AIRES where you can park a camper for only a couple of euros or free but they are short stay only. True wild camping will be frowned on. The municipal campsites are very good and cheap so you shouldn't have a problem.

Tesco in wexford had some camping tables that were a good by, get come camping chairs....

Also just a thought but maybe you don't need to convert a van there a loads of small campers on gumtree.ie dondeal.ie in your price range, just make sure it's mechanically ok.

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/campers/1038228

Also if you go over 3 ton but less than 3.5 ton you only need a class B license

Richie15 · 29-10-2009 6:36pm

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. Was hoping to do the full conversion for the cheap tax though. Would I get away with bolting down a camping stove and calling it "permanently affixed"?

Then again the idea of having it all done in a makeshift fashion does have a certain studenty charm, kinda reminds me of Homer's bookshelf.
"Relax, I swiped the MDF from some construction site!"
Foreman: "Tell the children we're 2 sheets of MDF short of finishing the hospital."

peasant · 29-10-2009 7:29pm

all the cheap motor tax in the world will be no good to you if you can't get your newly designated "motorcaravan" insured.

correct me if I'm wrong ...but I'm not aware of any insurance that will insure a 21/22 yo on a camper

pandos · 29-10-2009 10:20pm

Cheapest option would be to get an old caravan, the smaller the better and you will get all of the basics from that,

Sounds like you are not too fussy about fancy finishes, so it would work out pretty cheap.

I did this with my first conversion, I got windows, cushions fridge sink shower battery charger water pump tank etc all for a few hundred euros. I dumped most of the gear as I wanted to make a " gin Palace"

Plenty of caravans come up on free cycle or in the free adds papers.

If you check the web there are drawings for homemade wood burning stoves that would only cost a few quid. Put the chimney in the middle of the roof or make it detachable for stealth use.

I am a fan of Ivecos so no argument there. Great for space and for travelling in. Very under rated in this country and in the UK. Plenty of them on Ebay. Get the very high roof version with 2.1 inside.

As an aside, why do you need to do the vrt/ camper thing if you intend to insure it as a commercial.? why not do vrt and test as van, tax as commercial and then convert part of van temporarily for use around Europe.

Best of luck.

Richie15 · 29-10-2009 11:01pm

pandos wrote: »

As an aside, why do you need to do the vrt/ camper thing if you intend to insure it as a commercial.? why not do vrt and test as van, tax as commercial and then convert part of van temporarily for use around Europe.

Best of luck.

Mostly the road tax. Commercial road tax is €288 for up to 3t and keeps going up, but camper tax is only €88. Then again, the cost of converting properly would more than balance this out and with the fact you need a DOE now anyway, maybe I would be better off just leaving it as a commercial until I can get away with camper insurance. Saves a lot of hassle proving it's done properly and so on.

Course, if I can get a van over 30 years old I can get even cheaper vintage tax but that's another issue!

What d'yehs think of this? http://snipurl.com/swv0o
Oh feck, that's a year and a half too young.

pandos · 30-10-2009 12:31pm

Richie15 wrote: »

Mostly the road tax. Commercial road tax is €288 for up to 3t and keeps going up, but camper tax is only €88.

This is the nub of the matter. If it is less than 3 ton the vrt will be much higher. And you reckon that campoer insurance will be difficult.

What about the requirement that camper insurance be secondary insurance?? I.E.that you also need another car policy?? Is this requirement gone.??

spaceHopper · 30-10-2009 1:07pm

If I were you I'd take camper off donedeal and see what it would cost it insure as your only car / van.

Your biggest problem is getting insurance either Camper or Comerical

With out knowing that you are wasting you time.

After that you can either buy a converted camper, prices are rock bottom at the moment.

Or you can do a simple conversion to a low top or high top transit.... and keep it comerical

or get a 3 tonner and convert it and then VRT it.

Richie15 · 30-10-2009 7:19pm

Yeh, I may aswell forget about camper insurance - not old enough, haven't got another car and don't wanna bother with an engineer's report etc. So would I be better off just leaving it registered as a goods vehicle? Sure the extra €200 in tax, I'd end up spending that converting it properly anyway, whereas I can just throw in the camping equipment I already have. That way I don't even need to worry about roof height.

But say if I do convert it, will I still be able to insure it as a goods vehicle if it's registered as a camper?

The only trouble is the festivals wont let me stay in it if it's not done properly - but I can just park outside and get a day ticket!

Nah really though, I'll leave it in the carpark and pitch a tent. The main idea of having it is for staying in on the road, and for storing the stuff in while we're camping - was bad enough leaving my bag of clothes in the tent at oxegen, but if it goes missing in Europe I'm fecked!

Another problem with not converting it, if it's over 3.5t I'll need a tacho, speed limiter, weight-plate and side markings. On the other hand, though, these would help with the stealth.

Just thinking, if I'm a named driver on someone else's policy, would that do as having another car? Still too young and no engineer's report, but just wondering.

HGV or VRT - Tough Decisions about Conversion

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