Current Student looking for Advice from Pros

Fukuyama · 23-11-2015 10:29pm #1

Preemptive TLDR: If I was your intern, what would you like my competencies/skill level to be?

Hi Guys,

I posted here a few months back about doing an ICT conversion course (Hdip Web Dev) and got lots of advice. Well, I'm a few months into it now and loving it. Best decision I've ever made. I'm studying non stop, ahead of the classes and doing other technologies we don't be covering at home myself (like Jquery and Node.js). I don't even mind barely having a social life because I just love this tuff even more than I thought I would. All I do is read, study, practice, eat, sleep and go to classes.

Anyways, we have to do a summer work placement and it's advised that we start looking in January. I own my .com but have no portfolio to speak of, really.

So far my class work is just HTML/CSS mini-sites, some Java code assignments, building databases, learning computer networking etc... no major pieces of work really.

We have a project for the end of this semester to plan, design and build a company website with HTML + CSS + Javascript which I'm looking forward to. Thinking of doing a Bus Company website and using Javascript to enable users to select a stop, time and direction to get a schedule for that bus. So that'd be one project I could have.

Just wondering if anyone who has hired interns/summer work placements in the past has anything they would like to see in a student portfolio? I'd like to work with backend stuff but I like front end too. Node and Jquery are fun to learn and play with.

Any ideas for apps?

Also - I don't see many companies offering internships. Lots of jobsbridge ones but they seem to be non-tech companies mostly looking for a free web developer

. Would it be best to send out lots of emails come Janruary explaining myself and linking to my portfolio?

I'd really appreciate any insight or advice! I'm really passionate about this stuff and will do literally anything to break into Web Development, but I've not much idea about how companies recruit or what they want from interns.

Cheers!

Sheeps · 24-11-2015 1:11am

As someone who interview potential new candidates I'm sorry to say but I've been extremely disappointed by the standard of talent coming out of college from graduates. I'm sure you're the exception OP but in general graduate standard is very rough (I'm not being pessimistic, I really try and give graduates every chance, it's even got so bad that I now run a mentor program in the company I work for to try and get people who don't work in development roles interested in them and get them up to a level where they stand a chance in an interview).

You seem to be on the right track though which is reassuring. My advice to you is pick a project (doesn't matter what it is or how terrible an idea it is) and make it work. Use it to strengthen your skill set. The amount of graduates I've interviewed who have been out of college for a year and who haven't written a single line of code since is just ridiculous. Pick the project, design it, understand it and be able to explain and demonstrate the project and your design decisions in an interview. Not only will that show that you're a motivated developer who is passionate about development, but it will equip you with the familiarity in what ever your chosen technology is in order to ace any technical interviews or technical questions.

Don't stop reading about the technology you're interested in either. Make sure you're keeping up with it, and stay interested in how you design things well and to best practice. Node.js, Angular, Jquery, java, C, C++, Python, Ruby, doesn't matter what it is they all have a good way of doing things and a bad way. Learn the good way to the best of your ability. Do this in your spare time. This will put you miles ahead of the rest of pretty much everyone out there. Don't sell yourself short either, don't work for free. Once you have your foot in the door, you're in.

Stheno · 24-11-2015 1:17am

Stupid stuff 1: learn how to make calls/book rooms/schedule meetings, I know of an intern who failed as they didn't know to hit 9 to dial an outside line, so ask about stupid **** like that.

Stupid stuff 2: Pick a project that hasn't been done, how is your project different from a-b.ie?

I know one of the companies I work for would be dead keen to have an intern come in, develop our website, kick us up the arse to contribute (most of us are contractors with a bit of a personal involvement) etc, but we won't advertise, so seek out companies.

Sheeps · 24-11-2015 11:10am

For a software engineer role it doesn't really matter if the project has been done before or not. I'm only looking for the ability to design, develop and show an understanding of an application that you've worked on.

Fukuyama · 24-11-2015 2:39pm

Sheeps wrote: »

As someone who interview potential new candidates I'm sorry to say but I've been extremely disappointed by the standard of talent coming out of college from graduates. I'm sure you're the exception OP but in general graduate standard is very rough (I'm not being pessimistic, I really try and give graduates every chance, it's even got so bad that I now run a mentor program in the company I work for to try and get people who don't work in development roles interested in them and get them up to a level where they stand a chance in an interview).

Stupid question probably, but what SHOULD a graduate be able to do?

To be honest, a lot of my class are struggling with object orientated programming (Java). We've been here 8 weeks. I'd say a 1/3 of the class are still struggling with basics like variables, data types etc..

Another third are somewhat getting onto making small programs using multiple classes but still complain about not getting it and most of the time they submit half working code.

And there's a few of us who are doing fine and if anything getting a little bored with the slow pace. I'd like the pace to pick up a bit.

I guess what I'm asking is, in basic programming terms, what should I be able to do?

You seem to be on the right track though which is reassuring. My advice to you is pick a project (doesn't matter what it is or how terrible an idea it is) and make it work. Use it to strengthen your skill set. The amount of graduates I've interviewed who have been out of college for a year and who haven't written a single line of code since is just ridiculous. Pick the project, design it, understand it and be able to explain and demonstrate the project and your design decisions in an interview. Not only will that show that you're a motivated developer who is passionate about development, but it will equip you with the familiarity in what ever your chosen technology is in order to ace any technical interviews or technical questions.

What do you think of a small bus company site that uses JS to bring up the correct timetable, along with generally being a more 'brochure' site for the company. Would that be god? Or perhaps aim for something more complex like comparing private bus routes to Dublin Bus RTPI using their API (I couldn't do this just yet, but I'd learn!).

Don't stop reading about the technology you're interested in either. Make sure you're keeping up with it, and stay interested in how you design things well and to best practice. Node.js, Angular, Jquery, java, C, C++, Python, Ruby, doesn't matter what it is they all have a good way of doing things and a bad way. Learn the good way to the best of your ability. Do this in your spare time. This will put you miles ahead of the rest of pretty much everyone out there. Don't sell yourself short either, don't work for free. Once you have your foot in the door, you're in.

My goal is that by the summer of 2016 I'll have a CSS and HTML down, a good knowledge Javascript and JQuery, and hopefully be able to make small apps with Node. Also PHP and MySQL stuff. I love reading so it should be a challenge to keep up with the news.

Stheno wrote: »

Stupid stuff 1: learn how to make calls/book rooms/schedule meetings, I know of an intern who failed as they didn't know to hit 9 to dial an outside line, so ask about stupid **** like that.

Stupid stuff 2: Pick a project that hasn't been done, how is your project different from a-b.ie?

I know one of the companies I work for would be dead keen to have an intern come in, develop our website, kick us up the arse to contribute (most of us are contractors with a bit of a personal involvement) etc, but we won't advertise, so seek out companies.

I was an office worker for two years so hopefully that should help with the admin side of things!

I think I'll try get a website up with 2 little projects displayed by the end of January and built on that. I have lots of ideas for side projects but many of them are outside my grasp right now. Need to dumb them down a little.

draiochtanois · 24-11-2015 2:45pm

This post has been deleted.

Sheeps · 24-11-2015 3:37pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Stupid question probably, but what SHOULD a graduate be able to do?

To be honest, a lot of my class are struggling with object orientated programming (Java). We've been here 8 weeks. I'd say a 1/3 of the class are still struggling with basics like variables, data types etc..

Another third are somewhat getting onto making small programs using multiple classes but still complain about not getting it and most of the time they submit half working code.

And there's a few of us who are doing fine and if anything getting a little bored with the slow pace. I'd like the pace to pick up a bit.

I guess what I'm asking is, in basic programming terms, what should I be able to do?

Not a stupid question at all. The simple answer is that you should have basic core competency in your chosen technology and a demonstrable passion for that technology.

For me as a java developer I would be looking for basic core java knowledge (a bit of knowledge of the JVM and it's make up but not in any great detail). Be aware of at the very least some of the generic collections framework (using lists and maps etc), file and stream IO, knowledge of strings and a very good understanding of OOP and interfaces as well as the very basics.

Anything extra is a bonus (frameworks like core spring, ORM and persistence technologies like Ibatis or hibernate) but are not essential. They would be good talking points in an interview. I would consider anyone who had any level of in depth knowledge of those on top of really good core java an extremely strong candidate for someone of 1 or 2 years experience.

If I was looking for a front end developer for a UI/UX or web development role it would again depend on the technology. For angularjs or the like I would expect them to be very familiar with the concepts around dependency injection and data binding and the problems that they solve at a high level.

Fukuyama wrote: »

What do you think of a small bus company site that uses JS to bring up the correct timetable, along with generally being a more 'brochure' site for the company. Would that be god? Or perhaps aim for something more complex like comparing private bus routes to Dublin Bus RTPI using their API (I couldn't do this just yet, but I'd learn!).

Sounds Great. Start simple and add bits on as you learn and grow more confidence. See if you can get a back end and a database going in there too. Create a few end points for contacting the database and build some kind of a front end that will call the end points and drive data through.

This will give you the opportunity to learn about architecture patterns like MVC and cover stuff like AJAX, HTTP protocol, Security and will get you looking at all the database layer stuff.

Fukuyama wrote: »

Stupid question probably, but what SHOULD a graduate be able to do?

My goal is that by the summer of 2016 I'll have a CSS and HTML down, a good knowledge Javascript and JQuery, and hopefully be able to make small apps with Node. Also PHP and MySQL stuff. I love reading so it should be a challenge to keep up with the news.

I was an office worker for two years so hopefully that should help with the admin side of things!

I think I'll try get a website up with 2 little projects displayed by the end of January and built on that. I have lots of ideas for side projects but many of them are outside my grasp right now. Need to dumb them down a little.

You sound like you're definitely on the right track. If you don't feel you are strong in core java/python/node/php/what ever and that's definitely the route you would like to take I would advise looking at an internship where you can hone your skills and learn more. I promise you that you will learn more in your first year as a developer than in your entire career in academics.

Keep on producing things in your spare time and improving your technical ability. Build confidence in your ability and never ever stop learning.

Buford T Justice · 24-11-2015 4:08pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Stupid question probably, but what SHOULD a graduate be able to do?

To be honest, a lot of my class are struggling with object orientated programming (Java). We've been here 8 weeks. I'd say a 1/3 of the class are still struggling with basics like variables, data types etc..

Another third are somewhat getting onto making small programs using

Are you talking about people who have no experience in software development previously from college, or people who should have a fundamental understanding of it already? as there is a significant difference.

In context, I'm back in college studying software development, but I've been working in the industry for a few years. (Need the degree see.....). I'll admit that for the software aspect of the course where we are at the moment, i'm bored off my face, but there are quite a lot of people who are struggling to understand the concept of variables, loops, decision structures and so on.

Fukuyama · 25-11-2015 12:20am

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Are you talking about people who have no experience in software development previously from college, or people who should have a fundamental understanding of it already? as there is a significant difference.

In context, I'm back in college studying software development, but I've been working in the industry for a few years. (Need the degree see.....). I'll admit that for the software aspect of the course where we are at the moment, i'm bored off my face, but there are quite a lot of people who are struggling to understand the concept of variables, loops, decision structures and so on.

It's an ICT conversion course so everyone is new to programming. I would have thought that after 7-8 weeks of lectures and studying you should know how to use loops, variables etc.. ?

L.Jenkins · 25-11-2015 12:50pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

It's an ICT conversion course so everyone is new to programming. I would have thought that after 7-8 weeks of lectures and studying you should know how to use loops, variables etc.. ?

A lecturer can only do so much in 7-8 weeks. It's up to the students to go the extra mile. When I was learning, I bought a couple of books and followed examples I found on the net. I was unfortunate in leaving College, when I couldn't secure an internship or a mentor, so it was up to me to keep learning. Ask me to explain inheritance or abstraction and I'll more than likely look at you crossed eyed, but that's my fault. I have no bother putting an application together, whether it be in Java, C/C++/C#, .NET or any scripting language.

Buford T Justice · 25-11-2015 1:09pm

Itzy wrote: »

A lecturer can only do so much in 7-8 weeks.

This. Go too fast and you run the risk of information overload and its a complete waste of time. OOP programming is a massive subject and its important to get the basic fundamentals nailed down first.

On the other hand, Solas do an online java associate course, and if you do it, they race through material straight into classes, constructors, encapsulation and all that stuff without any real concrete examples as you go. Its a nightmare for a n00b

Fukuyama · 25-11-2015 1:45pm

Buford T Justice wrote: »

This. Go too fast and you run the risk of information overload and its a complete waste of time. OOP programming is a massive subject and its important to get the basic fundamentals nailed down first.

On the other hand, Solas do an online java associate course, and if you do it, they race through material straight into classes, constructors, encapsulation and all that stuff without any real concrete examples as you go. Its a nightmare for a n00b

I guess so. I guess my concern was that emerging from an ICT conversion course being able to do loops and other basic things would be the tip of the iceberg when it comes to knowledge needed to gain an internship. Maybe I'm setting the bar a bit too high then?

I would have thought that to secure an internship you'd have to be able to at least write small programs or build small sites....

brevity · 25-11-2015 1:51pm

1. Be easy to work with.
2. Be enthuastic.
3. Don't be afraid to ask for help.
4. Don't do anything obviously stupid.
5. Learn from your mistakes.

MillField · 25-11-2015 2:09pm

As long as you can demonstrate that you have a thorough understanding or your project work you should be fine. In my first real interview out of college I was asked to talk about a project that I had worked on so naturally I picked my final year project. I gave an outline of the project and a good description of the technical side and that stood to me I think.

You sound enthusiastic about software development so bring that attitude with you and you'll have an internship in no time.

L.Jenkins · 25-11-2015 2:42pm

Buford T Justice wrote: »

This. Go too fast and you run the risk of information overload and its a complete waste of time. OOP programming is a massive subject and its important to get the basic fundamentals nailed down first.

On the other hand, Solas do an online java associate course, and if you do it, they race through material straight into classes, constructors, encapsulation and all that stuff without any real concrete examples as you go. Its a nightmare for a n00b

It can be the same for any course really. Go too fast or don't provide adequate working examples and it's lost on the students. That's were another set of skills that can't be thought comes into play, asking questions and Googling the answer. If a lecturer can provide a solid basis 'and' the student is willing to learn, then theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem.

Buford T Justice · 25-11-2015 2:49pm

Itzy wrote: »

It can be the same for any course really. Go too fast or don't provide adequate working examples and it's lost on the students. That's were another set of skills that can't be thought comes into play, asking questions and Googling the answer. If a lecturer can provide a solid basis 'and' the student is willing to learn, then theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem.

This appears to be the problem more times than not, or should I say

if(!Student.willingToLearn())

is generally where the problems start

Fukuyama · 26-11-2015 12:46am

Itzy wrote: »

It can be the same for any course really. Go too fast or don't provide adequate working examples and it's lost on the students. That's were another set of skills that can't be thought comes into play, asking questions and Googling the answer. If a lecturer can provide a solid basis 'and' the student is willing to learn, then theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem.

To be fair the lecturer has a curriculum he needs to meet and we were warned for day one that it was an ICT, so fairly intensive. However, even in labs several students refuse to google little things or rely on spoon feeding from the lecturer.

And to be honest I also found it odd that there's a general lack of personal interest in IT, software, web development etc... among my classmates. I wouldn't have thought it'd be the norm to have so many people in an industry like IT who don't really love it.

Buford T Justice · 26-11-2015 11:34am

Fukuyama wrote: »

To be fair the lecturer has a curriculum he needs to meet and we were warned for day one that it was an ICT, so fairly intensive. However, even in labs several students refuse to google little things or rely on spoon feeding from the lecturer.

And to be honest I also found it odd that there's a general lack of personal interest in IT, software, web development etc... among my classmates. I wouldn't have thought it'd be the norm to have so many people in an industry like IT who don't really love it.

Then this is the problem, not the pace of the course or anything else. They're simply not bothered. Few of them in my course too. Best of luck to them I say.

14ned · 26-11-2015 12:18pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Also - I don't see many companies offering internships. Lots of jobsbridge ones but they seem to be non-tech companies mostly looking for a free web developer . Would it be best to send out lots of emails come Janruary explaining myself and linking to my portfolio?

I'd really appreciate any insight or advice! I'm really passionate about this stuff and will do literally anything to break into Web Development, but I've not much idea about how companies recruit or what they want from interns

I'd suggest getting into the Google Summer of Code for a very well known web programming platform such as Drupal. If you can get in, and then if you can pass the summer internship, not only is it an enormous asset on your CV but the contacts you make and having a mentor who can recommend you to people is a big win for getting work. Google, of course, use GSoC mainly as a recruiting device so if you do particularly well you'll be approached by Google, but Facebook and the other web multinationals also scour the graduation list.

Your college may accept a Google Summer of Code as a work placement - you are paid by Google after all. But I'd ask first.

Niall

L.Jenkins · 26-11-2015 5:42pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

...And to be honest I also found it odd that there's a general lack of personal interest in IT, software, web development etc... among my classmates. I wouldn't have thought it'd be the norm to have so many people in an industry like IT who don't really love it.

That's the thing, unless you love what you do, you're wasting your time.

Graham · 26-11-2015 6:46pm

Itzy wrote: »

That's the thing, unless you love what you do, you're wasting your time.

Unfortunately that's not entirely true, there's plenty of 'developers' out there who have limited love, clue or ability for the vocation. It's demonstrated time and time again in this very forum when posts for 'starting salary'/'do my homework' come before (and often outnumber) the technical/learning questions.

It's only the occasional post like this that restore my faith in the next generation of developers.

Fukuyama · 26-11-2015 7:24pm

Graham wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not entirely true, there's plenty of 'developers' out there who have limited love, clue or ability for the vocation. It's demonstrated time and time again in this very forum when posts for 'starting salary'/'do my homework' come before (and often outnumber) the technical/learning questions.

It's only the occasional post like this that restore my faith in the next generation of developers.

My own experience is obviously severely limited, but from a student perspective it seems that the high salaries and availability of jobs are attracting people who otherwise would be pursuing other fields. The government have started up big funneling systems to get as many students into IT as possible (for example, Springboard which I'm on).

Anyone in the course who actually is personally interested in IT (I'd say 3 of us out of a class of 30) seem to have become interested/fascinated as teenagers. One guy mentioned getting hooked on the Commodore 64 in the late 80s. For me it was downloading web pages' source code (circa 2002) and editing them to make my own shoddy sites.

This disparity has me a little confused I guess. From what I can see most of us will leave this course with a basic understanding of the curriculum. I assume it was the same for last years class however, apparently, the majority of them secured internships and jobs right away.

Is there really such a shortage of developers that people can half-ass a course, skim by and land a job?

Ant695 · 26-11-2015 8:00pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

My own experience is obviously severely limited, but from a student perspective it seems that the high salaries and availability of jobs are attracting people who otherwise would be pursuing other fields. The government have started up big funneling systems to get as many students into IT as possible (for example, Springboard which I'm on).

Anyone in the course who actually is personally interested in IT (I'd say 3 of us out of a class of 30) seem to have become interested/fascinated as teenagers. One guy mentioned getting hooked on the Commodore 64 in the late 80s. For me it was downloading web pages' source code (circa 2002) and editing them to make my own shoddy sites.

This disparity has me a little confused I guess. From what I can see most of us will leave this course with a basic understanding of the curriculum. I assume it was the same for last years class however, apparently, the majority of them secured internships and jobs right away.

Is there really such a shortage of developers that people can half-ass a course, skim by and land a job?

From what I can see it doesnt take much to get into the level one helpdesk type roles or customer service in a few places round here where you can then move up over time but if you want to go in a bit higher up more qualification ie degree plus evidence of experience is required.

Alot on my course started because they thought the money would be good at the end and some have found areas they enjoy. Alot also washed out because it wasn't what they expected. Down from 28 to about 10 now.

Fukuyama · 26-11-2015 8:11pm

Ant695 wrote: »

From what I can see it doesnt take much to get into the level one helpdesk type roles or customer service in a few places round here where you can then move up over time but if you want to go in a bit higher up more qualification ie degree plus evidence of experience is required.

Alot on my course started because they thought the money would be good at the end and some have found areas they enjoy. Alot also washed out because it wasn't what they expected. Down from 28 to about 10 now.

How far along is your course?

Ant695 · 26-11-2015 8:13pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

How far along is your course?

2nd semester of class starts in january and then finished in may but degree starts then in september. On placement now since june.

Buford T Justice · 26-11-2015 8:42pm

I've always had a love of coding, much like the OP when it comes to fiddling with html in the early days. I decided two years ago that I had enough of the hum drum jobs (hgv driver being one of them) and decided to do something about it. I started on android in my spare time building an app that consumed data from an API, and moved to learning java with small command line projects using the twitter api. 12 months ago I blagged an internship as a PHP developer even though I'd never used php before. I'm now what they call their 'lead developer', but I went back to college this year to do an honors degree in computing. All going well I'll be leaving college in 4 years with an honors degree and 5 + years experience in developing software. I figured, I came this far on my own with no help really in the space of less than a year, so imagine what I can do with a formal education. I have an opportunity which I'm taking advantage of, and i have the potential to be very very good at it.
I see the same lax attitude by some of the people in my course - not bothering going to class, not paying attention, not giving a toss.... its easy to see who won't last the pace here and who will do well.

I guess, in a roundabout way I'm saying that if you don't have an interest in this field, then don't be expecting wonderful things. I have a big interest in it, and I intend to do well out of it. If I don't it won't be because I didn't try hard enough.

Ant695 · 26-11-2015 8:58pm

Buford T Justice wrote: »

I've always had a love of coding, much like the OP when it comes to fiddling with html in the early days. I decided two years ago that I had enough of the hum drum jobs (hgv driver being one of them) and decided to do something about it. I started on android in my spare time building an app that consumed data from an API, and moved to learning java with small command line projects using the twitter api. 12 months ago I blagged an internship as a PHP developer even though I'd never used php before. I'm now what they call their 'lead developer', but I went back to college this year to do an honors degree in computing. All going well I'll be leaving college in 4 years with an honors degree and 5 + years experience in developing software. I figured, I came this far on my own with no help really in the space of less than a year, so imagine what I can do with a formal education. I have an opportunity which I'm taking advantage of, and i have the potential to be very very good at it.
I see the same lax attitude by some of the people in my course - not bothering going to class, not paying attention, not giving a toss.... its easy to see who won't last the pace here and who will do well.

I guess, in a roundabout way I'm saying that if you don't have an interest in this field, then don't be expecting wonderful things. I have a big interest in it, and I intend to do well out of it. If I don't it won't be because I didn't try hard enough.

Well said. You will only get out of it what you put in and the ones who spend class time on facebook or skip classes they "learn nothing in" will hopefully get found out when it comes crunch time although it's entirely possible they lag there way into a job and the cycle continues.

Personally I love programming and the software dev classes are by far my favourite. I especially like when I can't get something to work and ten when I figure it out and it compiles with no errors is a great feeling but alot of people in my class glaze over in it because they can't get they're head around it and do the minimum to get by.

Congrats on making the change to something you enjoy and I hope the course goes well.

Fukuyama · 27-11-2015 1:20pm

Buford T Justice wrote: »

I've always had a love of coding, much like the OP when it comes to fiddling with html in the early days. I decided two years ago that I had enough of the hum drum jobs (hgv driver being one of them) and decided to do something about it. I started on android in my spare time building an app that consumed data from an API, and moved to learning java with small command line projects using the twitter api. 12 months ago I blagged an internship as a PHP developer even though I'd never used php before. I'm now what they call their 'lead developer', but I went back to college this year to do an honors degree in computing. All going well I'll be leaving college in 4 years with an honors degree and 5 + years experience in developing software. I figured, I came this far on my own with no help really in the space of less than a year, so imagine what I can do with a formal education. I have an opportunity which I'm taking advantage of, and i have the potential to be very very good at it.
I see the same lax attitude by some of the people in my course - not bothering going to class, not paying attention, not giving a toss.... its easy to see who won't last the pace here and who will do well.

I guess, in a roundabout way I'm saying that if you don't have an interest in this field, then don't be expecting wonderful things. I have a big interest in it, and I intend to do well out of it. If I don't it won't be because I didn't try hard enough.

That's very inspiring to read!

I found myself in a somewhat similar position. Except I was working office jobs etc... Very tedious work. I was promoted but found myself swimming in boring bureaucracy, busy work and paper shuffling. I made a few VBA scripts to automate a lot of my tedious work (resulting in about 3 work-free hours per day

) and all the memories of mini-projects on my computer as a teenager came back. I started practicing Javascript at night and decided to quit my job and go back to college full time.

It's tough, particularly living on savings, but hopefully in a year I'll be in a paying position and actually enjoy my work!

Fukuyama · 27-11-2015 1:27pm

Ant695 wrote: »

Well said. You will only get out of it what you put in and the ones who spend class time on facebook or skip classes they "learn nothing in" will hopefully get found out when it comes crunch time although it's entirely possible they lag there way into a job and the cycle continues.

Unfortunately, I think lecturers actually facilitate these students. A good few times we've been given assignments where the importance of us completing them ourselves have been stressed.

Only for the due date to be extended multiple times due to complaints by the very students you describe. And with two days to go the lecturer does a full work through of the assignment in a lab. So they never learn the skill of googling technical problems or spending hours working out a problem themselves.

Buford T Justice · 27-11-2015 1:32pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think lecturers actually facilitate these students. A good few times we've been given assignments where the importance of us completing them ourselves have been stressed.

Only for the due date to be extended multiple times due to complaints by the very students you describe. And with two days to go the lecturer does a full work through of the assignment in a lab. So they never learn the skill of googling technical problems or spending hours working out a problem themselves.

To be fair, there's a lot of that kind of hand holding going on here too.

Ant695 · 27-11-2015 1:38pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think lecturers actually facilitate these students. A good few times we've been given assignments where the importance of us completing them ourselves have been stressed.

Only for the due date to be extended multiple times due to complaints by the very students you describe. And with two days to go the lecturer does a full work through of the assignment in a lab. So they never learn the skill of googling technical problems or spending hours working out a problem themselves.

We've never had dates moved for them but they normally will be in a mad panic the day before they are due and the standard will be shocking as they have no clue what is required.

Part of the issue is though the lecturers enable them because there is software installed that from the lecturers pc they can lock student pcs or display whats on their screen to all students. None of them use it though except to monitor what your doing during tests.

Fukuyama · 27-11-2015 1:47pm

Buford T Justice wrote: »

To be fair, there's a lot of that kind of hand holding going on here too.

With myself regarding my questions or generally, on this form with "do my homework" posts?

Buford T Justice · 27-11-2015 3:04pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

With myself regarding my questions or generally, on this form with "do my homework" posts?

With respect to the attitudes and behaviors on my course.

14ned · 01-12-2015 11:45am

Fukuyama wrote: »

That's very inspiring to read!

I found myself in a somewhat similar position. Except I was working office jobs etc... Very tedious work. I was promoted but found myself swimming in boring bureaucracy, busy work and paper shuffling. I made a few VBA scripts to automate a lot of my tedious work (resulting in about 3 work-free hours per day ) and all the memories of mini-projects on my computer as a teenager came back. I started practicing Javascript at night and decided to quit my job and go back to college full time.

It's tough, particularly living on savings, but hopefully in a year I'll be in a paying position and actually enjoy my work!

I hope that becomes the case for you, however the reality is that most of the jobs are in boring tedious work. Even from my position as an expert consultant for hourly hire, almost all the best paying work is for dreadfully easy/boring work pretty much as you'd do as a permie. The clients with money generally want someone competent they don't have deal with as an employee, so you weirdly end up doing exactly what you would have done as a permie, except with more before tax pay and fewer protections like a pension.

The real gain for me personally is the fixed terms of the contract. I work exactly the time I'm contracted for, not what management manage to cajole and squeeze out of me. Because you're an hourly worker, your time is valued whereas as a permie you can be seen as a political pawn useful for point scoring and turf warring in internal wars of attrition against some faction or other.

Equally of course you get no pay for sickness nor holidays, and you can and will be fired at the drop of a hat for any arbitrary reason. Still, I prefer this arrangement, though it's not for everybody.

The really weird thing about contemporary high skilled employment is that all specialists end up in the same place as they rise higher in position: administration and management. None of which exactly excites, but a medical consultant will get paid multiples for doing 80-90% the same work as a middle manager in an equivalently sized org. Waste of the medical training of course, but that's how modern society has chosen things.

Niall

D Hayes · 02-12-2015 10:37am

brevity wrote: »

1. Be easy to work with.
2. Be enthuastic.
3. Don't be afraid to ask for help.
4. Don't do anything obviously stupid.
5. Learn from your mistakes.

Great advice for any line of work.

On a specific note, one thing that would be worth learning about is source control. Any respectable software company implements it. Git is quite popular at the moment and Codecademy has just launched a course on it.

Talisman · 02-12-2015 11:51am

Buford T Justice wrote: »

This. Go too fast and you run the risk of information overload and its a complete waste of time. OOP programming is a massive subject and its important to get the basic fundamentals nailed down first.

On the other hand, Solas do an online java associate course, and if you do it, they race through material straight into classes, constructors, encapsulation and all that stuff without any real concrete examples as you go. Its a nightmare for a n00b

Two books that I would highly recommend to people new to programming are:

Computational Fairy Tales
Best Practices of Spell Design

They give you the concepts at a high-level so the jump to actual freaky stuff like coding isn't as daunting.

I originally bought them for my son when he was first learning to code and a friend has found them most valuable for getting to grips with her ICT conversion course.

yes there · 02-12-2015 12:23pm

brevity wrote: »

1. Be easy to work with.
2. Be enthuastic.
3. Don't be afraid to ask for help.
4. Don't do anything obviously stupid.
5. Learn from your mistakes.

Where I work this is all they ask of you coming in. Ill add dont be afraid to make mistakes.

Atomic Pineapple · 02-12-2015 2:22pm

Understanding Unit Testing/Test & Behavior Driven Development also would be a good way to stand out as a graduate.

brevity · 02-12-2015 3:39pm

yes there wrote: »

Where I work this is all they ask of you coming in. Ill add dont be afraid to make mistakes.

Yea, number 5 could read:

"Dont be afraid to make mistakes but do learn from them"

Fukuyama · 05-12-2015 3:00pm

D Hayes wrote: »

Great advice for any line of work.

On a specific note, one thing that would be worth learning about is source control. Any respectable software company implements it. Git is quite popular at the moment and Codecademy has just launched a course on it.

Git has been on my list for quite a while. Everytime I go onto Github.com and take a look around I realize a) how little I know b) that Git is some for of dark magic.

Will definitly do that Git course on Codecademy over the Christmas break.

What kind of projects would you recommend a newcomer to programming contribute to?

I've read through some code on Github and it's way above my head. I'm thinking of making a little HTML5/JS Pong game as a project over Christmas. I might put that up on my Github profile and then see if I could fix issues with someone elses game...

Talisman wrote: »

Two books that I would highly recommend to people new to programming are:

Computational Fairy Tales
Best Practices of Spell Design

They give you the concepts at a high-level so the jump to actual freaky stuff like coding isn't as daunting.

I originally bought them for my son when he was first learning to code and a friend has found them most valuable for getting to grips with her ICT conversion course.

Thanks! I'll get a hold of these and give them a read. I'll see if any libraries have them.

yes there wrote: »

Where I work this is all they ask of you coming in. Ill add dont be afraid to make mistakes.

Do you mind me asking what kind of company you work in? Startup, SME or large multinational? I'm giving some thought to what kind of company's I should be cold-emailing come Jan/Feb... Not sure which kinds would be the best to intern in.

yes there · 06-12-2015 3:50pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what kind of company you work in? Startup, SME or large multinational? I'm giving some thought to what kind of company's I should be cold-emailing come Jan/Feb... Not sure which kinds would be the best to intern in.

Large multinational. With your attitude you are already ahead of most. You just need the basic skills you learn in college to back it up and you are sorted. I have never cold emailed anyone but so cant offer any advice there on but you could use linkedIn maybe to find the people you should contact. Can someone else advise if this is a good idea or not?

Fukuyama · 28-01-2016 4:30pm

Hi Guys,

Sem 1 exams done and dusted. Went well ( I hope!). I've been mucking around with a few little projects the past week and having fun.

Anyways, college is back pretty soon and I need to start thinking about an internship for the summer.

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with this for a few reasons:

I've been getting more and more interested in Java as a career. It seems that the only jobs available in java are in large banks / multinationals.

There seems to be very few (if any) advertisements for interns in Ireland. Loads going in the UK but that just isnt an option for me right now, financially. The few that are out there tend to be Jobsbridge (which I'm not eligible for) and some very obvious "we have no developers on staff but want someone to come in and do XYZ for free" ones.

No ideas about pay or if the possibility even exists in Ireland for interns. I know that in may ways interns are expected to work unpaid to learn etc... however obviously I'd favour a company that did pay interns (even a stipend..). I guess there'd also be more chance of being kept on in a company that did pay interns as they've invested in you and are less likely to turf you out and wheel the next intern in. I've only ever encountered unpaid interns that are treated like photocopier lackeys in previous companies Ive worked for (non IT). They wind up very downtrodden and disappointed when it becomes clear their internship was never intended to be even remotely for their benefit.

I guess my main fear would be going another three months living like a pauper in an internship, ending up in a company where I'm viewed as an errand boy with zero chance of being kept on. I've no chip on my shoulder and I pretty much expect to be unpaid for an internship. I'm just worried about finding myself in a nightmare scenario as I've heard a fair few horror stories and witnessed it myself.

I'm also undecided about targeting big or small companies. Big companies seem to pay more and have more opportunities but multi-nationals tend to have very "corporate" cultures.

Anyone have any advice from when they were interns?

Cheers!

fukuyama

c_man · 28-01-2016 5:25pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

I'm also undecided about targeting big or small companies.

Woah nelly, send your CV everywhere and don't start narrowing your options prematurely!

You mentioned ads for interns, well previous places I've worked whilst having great intern programs never once advertised. We were inundated with CVs anyways and have deals with certain colleges.

My advice is to start sending your CV off right away (a lot of companies will have already filled their intern take for the Summer) to as many software houses you can find in your area (or city you'll be staying in). Put a nice cover letter on there and get cracking!

In parallel, start doing a bit of interview prep. Know your basics and be able to talk a bit about any college work.

Finally, I've never heard of unpaid internships in sofware dev in Ireland but I'm sure it exists. I'd think rather lowly of any company offering that tbh.

JackHeuston · 28-01-2016 5:42pm

Hey Fukuyama,
unfortunately I don't know how the situation is for interns in Ireland, but if you really can't find anything around that satisfies you, I would keep the UK as an option. Or even any other EU country (if companies there will be recognised by your college for the internship period). At least try emailing and calling around in the UK.

Now, I don't know if in the UK they are used to pay interns, but if by any chance you get an internship that pays, you shouldn't have too many issues moving there for a few months and paying rent.

Have you tried asking your college, too? Sometimes they have a network of companies willing to take students for short-term internships.

I'm saying this because I've done the same mandatory internship to graduate from college in 2012. I was studying CS in Italy, there was this opportunity in Dublin advertised on the bulletin board of the department which nobody wanted to get since it would have meant moving abroad, even if it was for only two months. It was paid and requirements were pretty basic, too. Most students preferred doing photocopies and trivial office tasks in the nearby companies for free or for a little expenses refund. I took it, done the interview, and took a flight three days later to start working. I had to ask my parents for some money at first but they paid me after the first month and at the end of those two months I came back with the internship done, some experience in a real company, and some money too. Now I've been working for them for two years.

What I'm saying is don't leave any option behind even if it looks impossible, those are usually the best ones. And after you've gotten some actual experience developing for a company, it's easier to look for another job than looking with zero experience at all.

I did a couple of interviews with some local companies there before considering the internship I did. They were either generic companies (a mattresses factory!) looking for someone to make them a website for free, or companies that needed some IT support for their offices (plug loosen ethernet cables back in, help the secretary unfreeze Windows...). I didn't even try starting with any of them because I badly wanted some real programming experience in a company that offered services or softwares. I was lucky I admit and it paid off at the end.

Imho only if you see that you're running short of time, you can lower your standards and start looking again.

Lastly, don't look too much at the company size.

14ned · 03-02-2016 1:32pm

Fukuyama wrote: »

Hi Guys,
Anyways, college is back pretty soon and I need to start thinking about an internship for the summer.

(snip)

Anyone have any advice from when they were interns?

Yes, firstly never work for free. You are not in fashion design, you are not a journalist, you are an engineer. Engineers don't work for free (*), if a role offers that it isn't a role worth bothering with as you won't be doing any CV building work anyway.

Secondly, I'd really stress again that Google Summer of Code is highly worth doing. Google will pay you $5,500 for the summer, so that's about five grand euro for three month's of remote working. If you pare down your costs i.e. move back in with your parents, that's more than twice than being on Jobseekers. Not bad. Far more valuable is an enormous gain in terms of contacts, networking, and it being on your CV will help discussion in job interviews for at least the next five years.

In the Boost C++ Libraries, our GSoC students are generally approached immediately by the big US multinationals with hard offers. One of our best students was offered a six figure dollar salary by one of the most elite teams in Microsoft who get their own especially nice building with every worker with their own large and private office. For the record, he actually turned it down, so there you go.

Now, it's hard to get into GSoC, and you will need to work hard once in and need to get back in next summer to really gain maximum value. You may also have to stump up cash to get to conferences to present your work as we make our Boost GSoC students do. But it's all about raising your profile, building your CV, impressing a network of contacts, and none of that comes for free.

Niall

(*) There is a long list of why and when we do work for free, but in your case above none apply to you.

Graham · 03-02-2016 1:59pm

14ned wrote: »

Yes, firstly never work for free.

Secondly, never say never.

Hollister11 · 26-03-2016 1:55am

I'm currently a second year student, what should i know in java for a summer internship ?

Current Student looking for Advice from Pros

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