Sent to prison for debt owed...

weedfreedomtinp · 04-01-2010 2:29am

our country is a shambles and the people in power are 2

zebrafumbler · 04-01-2010 2:56am

To hell or connaught with the tv license. We pay enough taxes, get the government hand out of our pockets. We need to rise up and smash the regime and all the other puppets. Take back the power.

the iceman come · 04-01-2010 12:08pm

allthedoyles wrote: »

This woman spent Christmas in Jail :

http://www.newrossstandard.ie/

An interesting and very sad story,but if you read in between the lines it is clear that the lady in question was jailed for contempt of a court order rather than the fine itself. She ran a business but failed to prove she "couldnt" pay. When she offered an installment plan it was too late at that stage as an order for her imprisonment had already issued. Again I will say,and I really cannot make this clear enough,if you prove to the court that you "cannot" pay by furnishing them with your income details less neccesary expenses,there is no way you will be jailed,but this must come at the installment order stage,if you miss that opportunity then you are automatically in contempt and could well be jailed. Please note that the court is actually there for your own protection as much as it is for the creditors actions.

Builderfromhell · 18-02-2010 9:57pm

kbannon wrote: »

I know this fella (lets just call him Ray) who was unable to pay all of his taxes (he was so poor that he had to lie about the few quid extra he received) and ended up getting 6 months in Arbour Hill.
His former friend (lets just call him Bertie) is apparently in a similar position and although for a long time he was so poor that he couldn't open a bank account, he still cannot manage to get himself tax certified. Thankfully, however, it looks like he may just manage to escape the same punishment dealt to Ray!

Ray and Bertie are not alone. They, like so many others, are victims! We must put a stop to this pain and suffering. With your help, we can reach out! Please send what you can.

It is my understanding that very few people go to jail for failure to pay taxes. I believe only be one person was imprisoned for failure to pay a few million in the last few years. Revenue will try to seize goods to the value of monies owed. In the event where goods are not available to cover debts then the debts are written off.

I am surprised to hear that someone would get 6 months for being poor and therefore maybe genuinely unable to pay tax debt.

sparkling sea · 18-02-2010 11:43pm

Originally Posted by Mena
Skewing the truth.

You don't go to jail in Ireland for non-payment of debt. What happens is thus (speeded up timeline):

1. You fail to pay
2. Summons are issued
3. You don't go to court
4. Judge orders you to pay x per month off debt or imposes a fine
5. You didn't go to court so you are unaware of 4 above.
6. You go to jail for contempt of court when you don't comply with 4.

That's how I understand it at least.

the iceman come wrote: »

As I understand it (and I am open to correction,)it should read like this,

1 as above
2 as above
3 as above

4 judgement is given in your absence
5 creditor has the option of enforcing judgement either by sending in sheriff (not usually of any use in a private dwelling)

6 sheriff returns to report there are no goods to seize
7 creditor calls for an examination of debtor in court for the purposes of an installent plan (another summons)

8 debtor dosent turn up,judge makes an order for whatever the creditor wants

9 debtor still dosent pay

10 possible jail,judge cannot determine wheter the debtor can or wont pay.

I know that the above refers to debt but with regard to fines The Fines Bill 2009 provides for the updating and indexing of fines. It also provides for the payment of fines by instalment and ensures that a court will take a person’s financial circumstances into account before imposing a fine. The main provisions of the Bill are outlined in the Department press release Publication of Fines Bill 2009

I didn't realise this had been passed into legislation and I can't seem to find the Act - whats it called ?

Criminal Courts up until the passing of this legislation did not allow for the payemnt of fines imposed by the court to be paid in installments unlike the Civil Court which does allow for installments.

It is not uncommon for people in Ireland to be imprisioned for not payment of a TV licence, and the fines imposed for not complying with a criminal court order still apply even if the defendant has been imprisoned.
There was a guy on Joe Duffy a month or so ago - it could have been 3 months or so ago - but he was imprisoned because he did not possess a dog licence and ignored the warnings to get one and did not pay the fine imposed by the court within the specified time which is usually within 7 days or so.
The process applies to non payment of a TV licence, warnings are given well in advance and it is possible if there is a problem payment to get help if you are entitled to it. Still it is crazy that people must go through the cost process.

Surprised and glad to hear the fines can now be paid through installments - very sensible move

sparkling sea · 18-02-2010 11:56pm

GUIGuy wrote: »

Ah newspaper headlines! Please give me one instance of a person being jailed for non payment of a debt in Ireland. It has'nt happened because AFAIK there is no law that permits it.

Obviously people are thrown in jail for failing to comply with a court order... but that's a completly different matter. When a case is taken against yo for non payment of a debt the court decides on an appropriate repayment schedule considering your crcumstances and orders you to pay it. Yor not jailed for non payment of the civil debt...you're jailed for not doing what the judge told yo.

It's the "Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1940". Recently there was a lot of coverage about this... The Caroline McCann test case. She 'ignored' an order to pay back 82 euro a week. The court didn't jail her immediately... The Credit Union took her to cort and she was ordered to pay this amount. It wasn't until she ran up arrears of 5,856Euro, that the district imposed a one month term on her.

The test case and the subseqent ruling on the case was not that the jailing was wrong per se, but that procedures relating to the fact that the court imposed the order without her being present. Because she wasn't in court she was not represented and no effort was made by the judge to ascertain whether her failure was do to a willful failre or an inabilty. The judge just issued the order... maybe he was annoyed with her. Well the good judge has passed on so we'll never know.

That is not to say that if she'd been present and represented AND the judge investigated her circmstances she might not have been jailed... but it was the judge's failing.

However with regard to fines 3,366 people were jailed in the first 10 months of last year because they refused to, or were unable to, pay fines. This compares to 2,520 in 2008 and 1,335 in 2007. In the majority of those cases, people were jailed for non-payment of road traffic fines

del_c · 19-02-2010 9:39am

Anybody who has ever done work or supplied goods to somebody who has then has difficulty getting paid for them will know the frustration that comes with it. This is not all about fat cats and dodgy money lenders. In order for commerce to function in an economy, there must be moral hazard and appropriate penalties for those who borrow money or get work done, and redress for those who supply these services.

In Canada they have a similar system to Sweden I think; it becomes difficult to function in society if you have an unpaid debt hanging over you. In Germany there is a system called SCHUFA which is similar.

In my opinion it is too difficult to put the squeeze on errant debtors..particularly for smaller scale enterprises; tradesmen, small builders etc.... The process is far too long winded and complex, especially if you end up having to go to court and getting paid back a fiver a week over 20 years, or some paltry settlement like that.

InReality · 19-02-2010 5:34pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't believe it's as simple as one rule for the rich and one rule for the poor.

You only go to jail if you do not cooperate with your lender and the court, and refuse to make any sort of payments.

I would bet money that is not what the rich do. They get their solicitor to come to some sort of agreement with their lender.

Big difference.

I think thats exactly right.

According to Matt Cooper's recent book Larry Goodman was able to get the banks to write off 300 million that he owed to them.

Tony Ryan of GPA was able to get a large amount of personal debt that he owed American banks written off as well.

Whats really interesting to me is that Goodman is now back to being a billonaire !

Danbo! · 19-02-2010 5:44pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

I take your point, if you have the means to pay and refuse to do so, then I don't see a reason why you should not go to prison. But even this point isn't as straightforward. Say you owe 20K to your credit union, and you have a house worth 350K with no mortgage. You might have your loan covered in terms of your capital worth, but you might not be able to sell your house in the current climate and therefore cannot use your capital worth to discharge your debt. So where are you then, are you a victim yourself of a wider set of economic circumstances or are you a person who has the means, but lacks the intent to discharge a debt???

However it seems that since we went into recession and there was a huge rise in unemployment, the number of people ending up in prison for debt default has risen very rapidly, which I think would suggest that the people ending up in prison for non payment of debts are the very same people who are most affected by this recession, possibly people who have lost jobs, etc.

In any event, I don't claim to have the answers right now, which is why I want to research the whole area and get in touch with people who have been down this particular road...

Just to point out, you can always sell a house in any economic climate. Saying it's worth 350K, and saying you cannot sell it, is a contradiction. Its only worth what somebody is willing to pay.

come on nemo! · 21-02-2010 9:52pm

Hi there,

Just stumbled on this thread and want to make the point that in some cases debtors do deserve to go to jail. Not necessarily in the case where financial institutions have lent recklessly but in the case of someone paying a tradesman to do a job and the job not being done or vice versa where the tradesman doesnt get paid.

It is basicaly theft and the culprit should not get away with it. That scenario may deserve a chapter in your book as well.

Builderfromhell · 24-02-2010 3:01pm

Where people refuse to pay tradespeople or builders the tradesperson has great difficulty using legal channels to get the money. The client can argue that work was not as agreed, or not up to standard, took too long etc. The legal costs associated with taking a client to court are huge. Both the tradesperson and the client will appoint Engineers to substantiate their claims. This adds to the bill.

The builder however, as a result of not being paid cannot then pay his suppliers, Revenue, or even himself. These debtors then take legal action and ultimately the builder has his vehicle and tools taken by the sherife.

I have heard of this happening to several perfectly good builders and it is tragic to see.

Bluloa · 24-02-2010 9:22pm

Do you have your debts cleared if you go to jail? It would seem pathetic to go to jail and still have the debts afterwards.

Builderfromhell · 26-02-2010 1:01pm

My understanding is that any debt to Revenue remains even after you go to jail. Remeber you most likely go to jail for refusing or being unable to abide by a court order to pay money owed.

Debts to individuals I think are no longer due if you have been sent to jail for inability or unwillingness to pay.

Again, I'm not sure of exact situation and have not found much advice on the net.

johnnyskeleton · 27-02-2010 7:12pm

Bluloa wrote: »

Do you have your debts cleared if you go to jail? It would seem pathetic to go to jail and still have the debts afterwards.

The debt is still due, but you can't be imprisoned under the same section for the same debt twice.

However, it would be very unusual for someone to seek committal of a debtor when they have assets which can be seized, property that can be charged or income which can be garnished.

Builderfromhell · 28-02-2010 6:14pm

Does anyone know what happens when debtor does not have assets of any consequence. Could the courts forfeit his wifes, kids assets to pay monies due to revenue or other creditors.

More and more people are unable to pay their personal por business debts. others are perhaps simply refusing to pay. This is causing huge problems for small businesses.

Dob74 · 01-03-2010 9:04am

jhegarty wrote: »

No one has ever been sent to jail for not paying the tv license.

They have been sent to jail for not paying the fines imposed by the court.

These fines are for not paying your tv linense.
So dont you go to jail for not paying your tv linense?

If you are court for non payment, you probably dont have alot of money at your disposal. So how is it justice to throw someone like that in jail?

Ste.phen · 01-03-2010 2:41pm

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Does anyone know what happens when debtor does not have assets of any consequence. Could the courts forfeit his wifes, kids assets to pay monies due to revenue or other creditors.

Kids don't have assets (everything they 'own' is really owned by their parents til they turn 18), and married persons are considered one person for many legal purposes, including sharing of assets and debts I think.

Ste.phen · 01-03-2010 2:43pm

Dob74 wrote: »

These fines are for not paying your tv linense.
So dont you go to jail for not paying your tv linense?

If you are court for non payment, you probably dont have alot of money at your disposal. So how is it justice to throw someone like that in jail?

To encourage them to follow the laws of the land?

The distinction, as we've discussed countless times here, is between 'can't pay' and 'won't pay', It's rare that someone in the former category would be jailed.

shqipshume · 02-03-2010 3:12pm

Chief--- wrote: »

Alot of people choose to go to prison instead of paying the fines.

Its alot easier to go to mountjoy for 15 days (probably only 3 or 4 in the end) than paying a couple of hundered euro or €1000 fine.

But should that have to an option for people who cant afford to pay and are hard working law abiding citizens.But when you are top in the dail etc... you get a slap on wrist.I want to see them do some time for what they have done.If it was 1916 they would have been shot for treason:D They say no room in prisons so they stock them up with people who cant afford a fine

Great book good luck with that

Annasopra · 03-03-2010 12:41am

Dob74 wrote: »

These fines are for not paying your tv linense.
So dont you go to jail for not paying your tv linense?

If you are court for non payment, you probably dont have alot of money at your disposal. So how is it justice to throw someone like that in jail?

No - you are sent to prison for not obeying a court order

Kidchameleon · 03-03-2010 6:30pm

Johnnymcg wrote: »

No - you are sent to prison for not obeying a court order

Which essentially means your sent to prison for not paying the fine/bill

Sent to prison for debt owed...

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