Climote Installed + Feedback

TCP/IP · 28-06-2013 9:26am #1

Hi All,

Just thought I would would give you my thoughts on my recent Climote install.
Ordered it through Electric Ireland and was contacted by installer Damien who made the arrangements to come and survey my house and look at my installation options. After the review I only had a single heating zone in my house so we arranged to get another zone installed so I could have central heating and water on their own zones. He arrived on time always and the install we very quick and easy, he even advised me on reducing my heating bill and gave full training on the Climote system. The system itself is great and both myself and my wife can now control the heating and water through smartphones and ipads which is really handy. Hopefully when we get into the cold weather it will help reduce our heating bills going forward. if anybody has any questions I will try and answer them for you.

Note I have no connection with Electric Ireland or Climote just wanted to pass on my feedback of the system and the installation.

Thanks
TCP/IP

podgeandrodge · 03-09-2013 8:56pm

TCP - just one question - is it the company (Climote) or Electric Ireland that operate this - i.e. if Climote went out of business down the road does that mean that's the end of remote access?

freddyuk · 07-09-2013 3:01pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Hi All,

Just thought I would would give you my thoughts on my recent Climote install.
Ordered it through Electric Ireland and was contacted by installer Damien who made the arrangements to come and survey my house and look at my installation options. After the review I only had a single heating zone in my house so we arranged to get another zone installed so I could have central heating and water on their own zones. He arrived on time always and the install we very quick and easy, he even advised me on reducing my heating bill and gave full training on the Climote system. The system itself is great and both myself and my wife can now control the heating and water through smartphones and ipads which is really handy. Hopefully when we get into the cold weather it will help reduce our heating bills going forward. if anybody has any questions I will try and answer them for you.

Note I have no connection with Electric Ireland or Climote just wanted to pass on my feedback of the system and the installation.

Thanks
TCP/IP

You have not zoned your heating you have split the hot water heating from the radiator heating. This is a very basic improvement.
What other advice did the expert give you on improving the efficiency of your heating system?
What advantage is there in operating your very simple system by way of a smart phone? Can you control the temperature of any room or only the whole house?
What functions do you have exactly?

TCP/IP · 07-09-2013 5:30pm

podgeandrodge wrote: »

TCP - just one question - is it the company (Climote) or Electric Ireland that operate this - i.e. if Climote went out of business down the road does that mean that's the end of remote access?

The service I believe is done by Climote but facilitated by Electric Ireland. If Climote went bang not sure what would happen but I would be calling Electric Ireland to sort me out.

TCP/IP · 07-09-2013 5:34pm

freddyuk wrote: »

You have not zoned your heating you have split the hot water heating from the radiator heating. This is a very basic improvement.
What other advice did the expert give you on improving the efficiency of your heating system?
What advantage is there in operating your very simple system by way of a smart phone? Can you control the temperature of any room or only the whole house?
What functions do you have exactly?

Well it's better for me as I can set my water to heat without having to turn on the heating so it works for me. Perfect example of remote control happened this week actually the wife left the heating by accident so instead of been on all day wasting money I just turned it off by by iPhone was handy to say the least. Are you in the heating business fredduk.?

freddyuk · 07-09-2013 8:32pm

If you had a properly installed control system you would have no worries about the heating as it would not be "left on" it would be set to correct temperature and with proper insulation and other controls you would not have to remember to switch it off ( if you did remember you had left it on). The thermostat is there to heat the water and then switch the heater off. It will lose a tiny amount of temperature during the day but then it will not need much energy to get it back to temperature. Fitting a cylinder blanket would decrease any heat loss and cost under €15 and last forever. It can be set to different temperatures at different demand times - it is called a "lifestyle" setting. It would not use any more power. Climote in your situation is a gimmick in my view as it has no real value and you saved zero by turning the hot water off as I hope it is already on a thermostat? €300 spent on proper system controls would be of far more benefit for the long term.
You did not mention what the expert told you as regards improving your efficiency so I suspect he told you nothing of value as the Climote was sold.
I could be wrong but while they were splitting the hot water and central heating they could have split the upstairs and down stairs heating system possibly very easily with another valve. I assume you do not have thermostatic radiator valves ? These would allow you to control the temperature in each room for a few euros each.
I just think there are much better ways to make savings on your energy bills with €300. If you don't have sophisticated controls what exactly can you do from your Iphone? I suspect very little except turn it on or off which of little financial or energy saving benefit.
I am not in the heating business but I am in the energy business.

TCP/IP · 08-09-2013 9:05am

Cheers freddy interesting stuff. Do you have more information on what would be beneficial. When you say energy business can you elaborate? Do you install energy systems or sell solutions.

freddyuk · 08-09-2013 10:00am

I sell solutions however my advice is free so you can take it for what it is worth.
May I suggest you google "S" plan and "Y" plan and "TRV's" and "Zoning your heating" and have a read through the information so you have a basic understanding of what I am on about then come back with any questions. Then you are in a better position when you ask an "expert" to come in and give you advice for your specific requirements. Selling you a sophisticated remote control device if you have no sophisticated system to control is in my view a little underhand. As you have not said what you were told by this guy I guess I am right? I am just fascinated to know what sort of survey you got from EI and what advice you were given?
There are plenty of qualified heating engineers on here who can guide you on the details on any plans you then have.

shane0007 · 08-09-2013 1:20pm

I agree with Freddie, but I might not have put it as bluntly & as eloquently as he did!

Climates have there uses but I disagree with their claims. I see ther vans going round stating a saving of over 30% on your fuels bills with a Climote. This is simply not true.
A Climote is a switch & a switch is a switch is a switch! So the only benefit is that if you are coming home at varying times each day, you can switch on the heating remotely. But we are generally in the masses creatures of habit, so a standard timeclock will suffice. We generally tend to get home at the same time each day, so great saving there over a standard timeclock.
Where it has its uses is in holiday homes, especially in exceptionally cold weather where you can monitor the temperature remotely & switch on & off accordingly.
What I find with Climote installations, they are generally installed by electricians & no disrespect to electricians, but they have no clue about the workings of heating systems. I have seen them installed above radiators, beside glass doors & once inside a hot press. There was an elderly couple with no Internet, no smart phone but yet Climote decided to install the unit in the hot press. The couple had no heating as the hot press was warm & the installer never disengaged the built in thermostat. When I got there, the couple were sitting in the kitchen with big costs on.

Zoning with both time & temperature control over each zone is a must for savings. Why heat upstairs when it is only needed for less than an hour before going to bed? So just heat the downstairs & you are only heating half the house.
Installing TRV's can be beneficial but I have my doubts. Heat rises on radiator systems & works through convection rather than radiation. Generally if you have 20C room temperature is will be a lot less at floor level where the TRV is installed. Will it heat enough at that low level to adjust the TRV accordingly. I'm not saying that it doesn't but I feel it's open to debate.
Correctly located room thermostats are an excellent choice, interlocked to the boiler via a motorised valve.

Well, that's my two pence worth anyhow. Oh & throw in a good quality modulating gas boiler with outdoor weather compensation & a very nice economical system is achieved.

TCP/IP · 08-09-2013 1:23pm

freddyuk wrote: »

I sell solutions however my advice is free so you can take it for what it is worth.
May I suggest you google "S" plan and "Y" plan and "TRV's" and "Zoning your heating" and have a read through the information so you have a basic understanding of what I am on about then come back with any questions. Then you are in a better position when you ask an "expert" to come in and give you advice for your specific requirements. Selling you a sophisticated remote control device if you have no sophisticated system to control is in my view a little underhand. As you have not said what you were told by this guy I guess I am right? I am just fascinated to know what sort of survey you got from EI and what advice you were given?
There are plenty of qualified heating engineers on here who can guide you on the details on any plans you then have.

Thanks I will have a read. Just to be clear there was not selling from electric Ireland or the guy that came to install. I decieded that I would like to be able to remotely control my heating system. The way I look at it is this is only a first step of doing more to reduce my energy consumption and I wanted to have a play with the solution. I am the mod of the gadgets forum after all ha ha.

TCP/IP · 08-09-2013 1:26pm

Ok guys here is a question for you both. How much would it cost to create a good heating solution for a detached 4 bed house. I have gas central heating.

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 08-09-2013 1:27pm

I've installed 3 climotes and think there a fantastic system...

freddyuk · 08-09-2013 1:32pm

MrMac84 wrote: »

I've installed 3 climotes and think there a fantastic system...

What a very helpful post. Many thanks for that. Don't bother telling us why they are so fantastic. That is what this thread is about unless you missed it.

shane0007 · 08-09-2013 1:36pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Ok guys here is a question for you both. How much would it cost to create a good heating solution for a detached 4 bed house. I have gas central heating.

It would really depend on where the system can be split with motorised valves, how easily wires can be brought back from the hot press to the boiler & can hard wired thermostat be used downstairs or does a wireless one have to be used.
I understand you may already have a thermostat in your hall but these can be rarely used as they are again fitted by electricians who think a thermostat only requires a live in live out, but they also need a neutral for the anticipator for accuracy. This is rarely there so either a wireless on is used or one that uses live in live out plus a battery for the internal stat pcb.

shane0007 · 08-09-2013 1:40pm

Also if you have a drop down system, (look at the downstairs radiator pipes, are they coming out of the walls or the floor to the rads, if walls, it's a drop down), they can be rarely zoned into 3 up, down & hw. Generally, with drop down you can only separate heating & hw as the drops are off the primaries under the floor.

freddyuk · 08-09-2013 1:48pm

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree with Freddie, but I might not have put it as bluntly & as eloquently as he did!

Climates have there uses but I disagree with their claims. I see ther vans going round stating a saving of over 30% on your fuels bills with a Climote. This is simply not true.
A Climote is a switch & a switch is a switch is a switch! So the only benefit is that if you are coming home at varying times each day, you can switch on the heating remotely. But we are generally in the masses creatures of habit, so a standard timeclock will suffice. We generally tend to get home at the same time each day, so great saving there over a standard timeclock.
Where it has its uses is in holiday homes, especially in exceptionally cold weather where you can monitor the temperature remotely & switch on & off accordingly.
What I find with Climote installations, they are generally installed by electricians & no disrespect to electricians, but they have no clue about the workings of heating systems. I have seen them installed above radiators, beside glass doors & once inside a hot press. There was an elderly couple with no Internet, no smart phone but yet Climote decided to install the unit in the hot press. The couple had no heating as the hot press was warm & the installer never disengaged the built in thermostat. When I got there, the couple were sitting in the kitchen with big costs on.

Zoning with both time & temperature control over each zone is a must for savings. Why heat upstairs when it is only needed for less than an hour before going to bed? So just heat the downstairs & you are only heating half the house.
Installing TRV's can be beneficial but I have my doubts. Heat rises on radiator systems & works through convection rather than radiation. Generally if you have 20C room temperature is will be a lot less at floor level where the TRV is installed. Will it heat enough at that low level to adjust the TRV accordingly. I'm not saying that it doesn't but I feel it's open to debate.
Correctly located room thermostats are an excellent choice, interlocked to the boiler via a motorised valve.

Well, that's my two pence worth anyhow. Oh & throw in a good quality modulating gas boiler with outdoor weather compensation & a very nice economical system is achieved.

Sorry I just tell it as I see it.
TRV's are a mechanical way of adjusting the input heat to each radiator. So when you set them up you adjust them to the temperature you need for that room. There is no setting degrees on the valve just numbers so when the valve closes that is the temperature you have set. If it is wrong then just adjust it to open sooner or later. If you are fully zoned with programmable room stats they are less of an issue but they are the cheaper option to room control as programmable stats are not cheap and have to be wired in (or use wireless). If you have a wood burner and a rad in the same room and you fire up the wood burner the rad will soon turn off if it is set correctly on the TRV assuming the room stat is in another room which it usually is on a basic system.
For holiday homes a basic frostat will protect the system from freezing but I think most insurers insist you drain the system in winter! I do not see the point of heating a holiday home above 14/15c and this can be controlled on a decent system automatically. However leaving the heating off in winter unless it gets really cold may lead to mould problems.

TCP/IP · 08-09-2013 2:21pm

Thanks Shane more to read up on.

Do regulars on here feel the Climote is taking away potential work for as freddyuk calls it "solutions" from people that work in the heating industry.

shane0007 · 08-09-2013 2:37pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Thanks Shane more to read up on.

Do regulars on here feel the Climote is taking away potential work for as freddyuk calls it "solutions" from people that work in the heating industry.

I wouldn't go along with that it is taking away from potential work. It's basically a remote switch, nothing more nothing less. What I don't like is it is being promoted as a tool that can save 30% off your bills. Simply not true. It's akin to saying if I don't switch on my heating at all, I will save 100% of my heating bill!
Gadget people like yourself will love it but only for the novelty factor. It will be of limited benefit on the very rare occasion that you will actually need it.
Looks nice though...

08-09-2013 8:39pm

It's just a gizmo gadget, do I want one, yep:D it's got pretty lights, are there much better ways of improving efficiency and system control? absolutely, but those "solutions" are a bit boring.

mylesm · 09-01-2015 11:47am

Climote Hub as I understand it is a 3 Zone Hub 2 Heat and one water is the default but any Zone name can be changed ie you can have upstairs,Downstairs,Hot Water or if a 3 Zone heating is required you can have for example upstairs,Living Room,Kitchen or whatever you want to call the zones Basically it switches on and off these Zones either locally or remotely via app or sms

it can also be linked to wireless thermostats in each of these Zones therby giving Temperature Control as well ie you can adjust setpoint for each zone

mylesm

Ronan H · 20-01-2015 6:26pm

Interesting thread. Just thought I'd pop in and give my 2c worth.

I had a Climote installed recently as a freebie for switching to Airtricity. I figured I might as well seeing as it was free. All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't pay €300 for it or I would be seriously pissed off.

I will preface the remainder of my post by saying that I am probably not the ideal target customer because I have only one zone, and no thermostat, so if you take away the remote access then in essence, as mentioned, it's an extremely expensive on/off switch!

What got on my nerves was the fact that you can only programme three on/off periods per 24 hours. I already have three periods set, but I wanted to set another period at about 3am one night to heat the kids rooms a bit as it was baltic. Couldn't figure out why the unit wouldn't allow me to do so, and only discovered when I googled it that there is only three periods programmable. To me that seems like an incredible restriction given the capabilities of technology and electronics these days. It is 2015 after all, not 1995. I contacted Climote and they said it's the industry standard!

I also see a reference here to the annual fee for remote access, which I was not made aware of by the Airtricity salesman when he visited.

That aside, it really is just a gimmick. Yes I have remote access but how often am I going to use that really? Not very...

As mentioned, I got it free, but Christ on a bike, if I had paid €300 for it I would be seeeeeriously disappointed.

As some of the guys have mentioned, €300 put into the existing system might be much more advisable!

Good looking on/off switch though. Raspberry Pi anyone?!

Ro

cerastes · 21-01-2015 7:14pm

shane0007 wrote: »

Also if you have a drop down system, (look at the downstairs radiator pipes, are they coming out of the walls or the floor to the rads, if walls, it's a drop down), they can be rarely zoned into 3 up, down & hw. Generally, with drop down you can only separate heating & hw as the drops are off the primaries under the floor.

This is my system I'd say,can't say for sure unless I rip the floor upstairs up,any hopes theres a seperate circuit for upstairs and downstairs is slim, could probably separate them but would require some work other than that there shouldn't be anything preventing a drop down system being split And used as such?

freddyuk · 21-01-2015 11:16pm

Kinda supports my original opinion? However, as above, there are those that just love gadgets for the sake if it. That is what keeps this market alive.
A decent qualified energy surveyor would cost less and save you a lot more.
That is not me but they are out there after you have done the easy cheap moves to ensure the system you have is working effectively/efficiently making the best of what you have. Plenty of free advice herein to make a start.
Remotely controlling a dis-functional system is frankly bonkers (in my very narrow view):D

cerastes · 22-01-2015 1:44am

Ronan H wrote: »

Interesting thread. Just thought I'd pop in and give my 2c worth.

I had a Climote installed recently as a freebie for switching to Airtricity. I figured I might as well seeing as it was free. All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't pay €300 for it or I would be seriously pissed off.

I will preface the remainder of my post by saying that I am probably not the ideal target customer because I have only one zone, and no thermostat, so if you take away the remote access then in essence, as mentioned, it's an extremely expensive on/off switch!

What got on my nerves was the fact that you can only programme three on/off periods per 24 hours. I already have three periods set, but I wanted to set another period at about 3am one night to heat the kids rooms a bit as it was baltic. Couldn't figure out why the unit wouldn't allow me to do so, and only discovered when I googled it that there is only three periods programmable. To me that seems like an incredible restriction given the capabilities of technology and electronics these days. It is 2015 after all, not 1995. I contacted Climote and they said it's the industry standard!

Good looking on/off switch though. Raspberry Pi anyone?!

Ro

This does seem to be the allocation most timer/programmers allow in usage slots. Ive wondered why 3 myself? Id have thought it wouldnt be too much more difficult to have more on/off time periods.

I suppose if you have a room and tank stat, that would lower the usage to whats needed in those usage slots, if you add a programmable stats instead that would narrow it further to specific times, Zones even more? TRVs potentially more? programmable TRV's maybe even more still?

Ronan H · 24-01-2015 1:35pm

cerastes wrote: »

This does seem to be the allocation most timer/programmers allow in usage slots. Ive wondered why 3 myself? Id have thought it wouldnt be too much more difficult to have more on/off time periods.

I suppose if you have a room and tank stat, that would lower the usage to whats needed in those usage slots, if you add a programmable stats instead that would narrow it further to specific times, Zones even more? TRVs potentially more? programmable TRV's maybe even more still?

Yeah I think our setup with one zone and no stats doesn't help the cause. What we have is probably the base, entry level setup and anything additional makes the system more practical and usable. But I agree that it shouldn't be too difficult to have more than 3 on/off periods.

We do have TRVs on all the rads in the house however, and TBH I have never put much thought into them. As in, when I choose 3 instead of 5, my logic is that I just want middling heat, not full blast, but that's not the correct use for a TRV. TRVs moderate the heat depending on the temperature of the room yes?

Is it more efficient to have the heat on for 2 hours with all the rads at 5, than to have the heat on for 4 hours with all the rads slightly lower to keep the temperature stable? I'm crap at all these calculations :rolleyes:.

mylesm · 03-04-2015 8:48am

IMHO

The level of control in most Irish Homes is very poor most people I know time their heating to come on when they anticipate they will need it like first thing in morning,return from work etc and usually boost in between if needed like an unexpected return early etc

But the Temperature Control is very poor so house overheats and they switch off heating house cools down switch on and this cycle continues

The only real way to achieve proper Temp control is to sense the Air Temp in the Zone being heated ie if Living room is being heated you need stat in Living Room etc relying on a Stat in the Hall to control Temperature in Living room will invariably lead to poor Temp regulation in the Living Room

I have my Heating system split into 3 Zones 1.Kitchen Dining 2.Living Room 3.Upstairs Bedrooms

Each Zone has a Myson Mini Valve Controlled by a Siemens Rev24Rf Wireless Stat

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/radio-frequency-wireless-c-39.html/siemens-rev24rf-7day-wireless-programmable-thermostat-p-531.html

These Stats work Very well they Have PID Control and a self learning function and control Temperature extremely tightly they have several modes Auto mode runs the schedule you set up to suit your needs they have energy saving mode where Temp is set back to lower temp like at night or if going out

I have mine set on Auto mode at 21C in Both downstairs Zones and 19 in Bedrooms and they all GO to Energy Saving Mode at 11.30pm which is 18c

SO at 7.00am my stats go to 21c and both Zones go from 18 up to 21 and upstairs to 19 they maintain this all Day and go back to 18c at 11.30

This means there is never a major Temp Swing House is always very Comfortable

House is well Insulated B3 Rating approx 2500sqft and my Gas Bills are reasonable

SO I firmly believe putting money into proper control is the way to go not fancy gadgets to switch on/off an already poorly controlled system

Ronan H · 03-04-2015 11:20am

mylesm wrote: »

IMHO

The level of control in most Irish Homes is very poor most people I know time their heating to come on when they anticipate they will need it like first thing in morning,return from work etc and usually boost in between if needed like an unexpected return early etc

But the Temperature Control is very poor so house overheats and they switch off heating house cools down switch on and this cycle continues

The only real way to achieve proper Temp control is to sense the Air Temp in the Zone being heated ie if Living room is being heated you need stat in Living Room etc relying on a Stat in the Hall to control Temperature in Living room will invariably lead to poor Temp regulation in the Living Room

I have my Heating system split into 3 Zones 1.Kitchen Dining 2.Living Room 3.Upstairs Bedrooms

Each Zone has a Myson Mini Valve Controlled by a Siemens Rev24Rf Wireless Stat

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/radio-frequency-wireless-c-39.html/siemens-rev24rf-7day-wireless-programmable-thermostat-p-531.html

These Stats work Very well they Have PID Control and a self learning function and control Temperature extremely tightly they have several modes Auto mode runs the schedule you set up to suit your needs they have energy saving mode where Temp is set back to lower temp like at night or if going out

I have mine set on Auto mode at 21C in Both downstairs Zones and 19 in Bedrooms and they all GO to Energy Saving Mode at 11.30pm which is 18c

SO at 7.00am my stats go to 21c and both Zones go from 18 up to 21 and upstairs to 19 they maintain this all Day and go back to 18c at 11.30

This means there is never a major Temp Swing House is always very Comfortable

House is well Insulated B3 Rating approx 2500sqft and my Gas Bills are reasonable

SO I firmly believe putting money into proper control is the way to go not fancy gadgets to switch on/off an already poorly controlled system

Myles that's a brilliant and very helpful post. I will be sending you a PM soon to rack your brain if that's OK!

mylesm · 03-04-2015 12:21pm

Ronan H wrote: »

Myles that's a brilliant and very helpful post. I will be sending you a PM soon to rack your brain if that's OK!

NO problem pm away

03-04-2015 1:50pm

mylesm wrote: »

IMHO

The level of control in most Irish Homes is very poor most people I know time their heating to come on when they anticipate they will need it like first thing in morning,return from work etc and usually boost in between if needed like an unexpected return early etc

But the Temperature Control is very poor so house overheats and they switch off heating house cools down switch on and this cycle continues

The only real way to achieve proper Temp control is to sense the Air Temp in the Zone being heated ie if Living room is being heated you need stat in Living Room etc relying on a Stat in the Hall to control Temperature in Living room will invariably lead to poor Temp regulation in the Living Room

I have my Heating system split into 3 Zones 1.Kitchen Dining 2.Living Room 3.Upstairs Bedrooms

Each Zone has a Myson Mini Valve Controlled by a Siemens Rev24Rf Wireless Stat

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/radio-frequency-wireless-c-39.html/siemens-rev24rf-7day-wireless-programmable-thermostat-p-531.html

These Stats work Very well they Have PID Control and a self learning function and control Temperature extremely tightly they have several modes Auto mode runs the schedule you set up to suit your needs they have energy saving mode where Temp is set back to lower temp like at night or if going out

I have mine set on Auto mode at 21C in Both downstairs Zones and 19 in Bedrooms and they all GO to Energy Saving Mode at 11.30pm which is 18c

SO at 7.00am my stats go to 21c and both Zones go from 18 up to 21 and upstairs to 19 they maintain this all Day and go back to 18c at 11.30

This means there is never a major Temp Swing House is always very Comfortable

House is well Insulated B3 Rating approx 2500sqft and my Gas Bills are reasonable

SO I firmly believe putting money into proper control is the way to go not fancy gadgets to switch on/off an already poorly controlled system

I like that your answer to gizmo gadgets is more gizmo gadgets.

mylesm · 03-04-2015 2:19pm

gary71 wrote: »

I like that your answer to gizmo gadgets is more gizmo gadgets.

Gizmo Gadgets where???

only thing I referred to was Siemens Thermostats if you think they are Gizmo Gadgets then God help us for trying to get proper Control in this Country

Actually I think That Thermostats Linked to Minivlvs controlling Zone Temp is the Standard that most people would hope for but maybe you can enlighten me as to where the Gizmo Gadgets are in my installation

03-04-2015 3:04pm

mylesm wrote: »

Gizmo Gadgets where???

only thing I referred to was Siemens Thermostats if you think they are Gizmo Gadgets then God help us for trying to get proper Control in this Country

Actually I think That Thermostats Linked to Minivlvs controlling Zone Temp is the Standard that most people would hope for but maybe you can enlighten me as to where the Gizmo Gadgets are in my installation

A higher functioning stat is in my mind a gizmo gadget.

The heating issues you mentioned are more to do with bad plumbing and home owners not understanding heating controls than a issue with the controls.

A well balanced system with simplistic controls works very well.

I think all home owners should take much more interest in how their heating works and fit controls that suit their needs but every installations/home owner is different so everything has its place when fitted correctly.

mylesm · 03-04-2015 9:39pm

gary71 wrote: »

A higher functioning stat is in my mind a gizmo gadget.

The heating issues you mentioned are more to do with bad plumbing and home owners not understanding heating controls than a issue with the controls.

A well balanced system with simplistic controls works very well.

I think all home owners should take much more interest in how their heating works and fit controls that suit their needs but every installations/home owner is different so everything has its place when fitted correctly.

Well we will beg to Differ and not looking for any arguement but in my experience the level of control in Ireland is very poor and any system either old boiler or new boiler would be way better with proper Temp control in the zone being heated unless you sense the Temperature in the zone being heated then either overheating or underheating will most likely occur this can be achieved by either Thermostats and the better the stat the better the control or TRVs which in my experience give very poor control

What people should be aiming for is a Temperature that varies as little as possible from the setpoint

Simply set the temp to 21 and control it at that but each to their own but my system is 3 Zones and controls perfectly

antoinolachtnai · 03-04-2015 9:49pm

Ronan H wrote: »

Good looking on/off switch though. Raspberry Pi anyone?!

Ro

I went the raspberry pi route. I have set it up so that as the outside temperature (which I get from an api on the web, rather than a sensor) falls, the heating comes on for a longer and longer period.

If it gets cold enough the heating will run pretty much 24 hours a day.

I have separate HW and CH. I also have zoned the system really, but I haven't done much on using that for control.

There is also an internal temperature sensor, but i don't use it to control the heat. This is really because there seems to be a big difference between temperature (which is objective) and comfort (which is basically subjective).

I now pretty much let it run and don't interact with it very much. I don't have to fiddle with it as I go from season to season and it works well. I have been running it like this for about a year.

it could do with more features for sure. But it suits my needs.

03-04-2015 11:02pm

mylesm wrote: »

Well we will beg to Differ and not looking for any arguement but in my experience the level of control in Ireland is very poor and any system either old boiler or new boiler would be way better with proper Temp control in the zone being heated unless you sense the Temperature in the zone being heated then either overheating or underheating will most likely occur this can be achieved by either Thermostats and the better the stat the better the control or TRVs which in my experience give very poor control

What people should be aiming for is a Temperature that varies as little as possible from the setpoint

Simply set the temp to 21 and control it at that but each to their own but my system is 3 Zones and controls perfectly

I am not in disagreement with you in respect of your choice of controls they're very nice and would work well with a climote:D, my point which is probably badly made is that the heating systems you are looking at to determine the success of your own are bad in the first place because of plumbing and wiring errors and not because of the simplesity of the heating controls.

Room thermostats are rarely wired/positioned correctly and this is usually the cause for the annoying temperture fluctuations you mentioned noticing in many homes. If wired correctly the roomstat has a anticipator that allows the room stat to stay very close to the set temperture as you are finding with your stats.

A well installed heating system with one room thermostat with a anticipator can maintain a even temperture thru out a home assisted by TRVs.

If you then fit intelligent room thermostats and muti zones then that would be a better system but the improvements less noticeable on a already working heating system.

So your advice on maintaining a set point is a good one and one that can be fixed usually by rewiring existing controls.

mylesm · 03-04-2015 11:35pm

gary71 wrote: »

I am not in disagreement with you in respect of your choice of controls they're very nice and would work well with a climote:D, my point which is probably badly made is that the heating systems you are looking at to determine the success of your own are bad in the first place because of plumbing and wiring errors and not because of the simplesity of the heating controls.

Room thermostats are rarely wired/positioned correctly and this is usually the cause for the annoying temperture fluctuations you mentioned noticing in many homes. If wired correctly the roomstat has a anticipator that allows the room stat to stay very close to the set temperture as you are finding with your stats.

A well installed heating system with one room thermostat with a anticipator can maintain a even temperture thru out a home assisted by TRVs.

If you then fit intelligent room thermostats and muti zones then that would be a better system but the improvements less noticeable on a already working heating system.

So your advice on maintaining a set point is a good one and one that can be fixed usually by rewiring existing controls.

I think we are really talking the same thing

but in my experience most homes dont have well installed systems and indeed most have a wired stat in the hall if we are talking the era of anticipator stats and wireless stats overcome the problem of poor placement as you can place them where they achieve the best result

to achieve whole house comfort with one wired stat with anticipator would be
extremely difficult as every Rad would have to be perfectly sized for each room and it would be difficult to calculate losses etc

A Wired Thermostat with an anticipator will work ok but will not give anything like the accuracy of a modern stat with pid control which will control to a given setpoint very well and will adjust opening time of valves depending on rate of heating and losses

A simple wired stat with an anticipator which is really only a resistor wired across the stat which heats the bimetal in an attempt to reduce the inherant long time delay of these Stats does not come near the level of control being achieved by modern stats I am not even sure if wired stats with anticipators are being used at all now

I know in a ideal world all heating systems would be installed and sized perfectly but in reality they are not so proper modern Temperature control in each Zone becomes even more important

So if I was designing a control system I would use PID Stats with optimum start If I was laying out a heating system I would try to have as many Zones as practicable and control each Zone at the setpoint but to try to retrofit to an existing system is difficult Wireless Stats no problem but Zoning could be very hard but even this can be helped by modern TRVs with remote Temp sensing capabilies

Darocketeer · 05-06-2015 8:09pm

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree with Freddie, but I might not have put it as bluntly & as eloquently as he did!

Climates have there uses but I disagree with their claims. I see ther vans going round stating a saving of over 30% on your fuels bills with a Climote. This is simply not true.
A Climote is a switch & a switch is a switch is a switch! So the only benefit is that if you are coming home at varying times each day, you can switch on the heating remotely. But we are generally in the masses creatures of habit, so a standard timeclock will suffice. We generally tend to get home at the same time each day, so great saving there over a standard timeclock.
Where it has its uses is in holiday homes, especially in exceptionally cold weather where you can monitor the temperature remotely & switch on & off accordingly.
What I find with Climote installations, they are generally installed by electricians & no disrespect to electricians, but they have no clue about the workings of heating systems. I have seen them installed above radiators, beside glass doors & once inside a hot press. There was an elderly couple with no Internet, no smart phone but yet Climote decided to install the unit in the hot press. The couple had no heating as the hot press was warm & the installer never disengaged the built in thermostat. When I got there, the couple were sitting in the kitchen with big costs on.

Zoning with both time & temperature control over each zone is a must for savings. Why heat upstairs when it is only needed for less than an hour before going to bed? So just heat the downstairs & you are only heating half the house.
Installing TRV's can be beneficial but I have my doubts. Heat rises on radiator systems & works through convection rather than radiation. Generally if you have 20C room temperature is will be a lot less at floor level where the TRV is installed. Will it heat enough at that low level to adjust the TRV accordingly. I'm not saying that it doesn't but I feel it's open to debate.
Correctly located room thermostats are an excellent choice, interlocked to the boiler via a motorised valve.

Well, that's my two pence worth anyhow. Oh & throw in a good quality modulating gas boiler with outdoor weather compensation & a very nice economical system is achieved.

This is spot on advise. Only one thing missing, the Climote system works best after a full heating system flush including the hot water tank. 30% saving over the year is definitely achievable.

NOTE: I work in the home energy efficiency market and have seen these savings loads of times.

freddyuk · 05-06-2015 10:07pm

Darocketeer wrote: »

This is spot on advise. Only one thing missing, the Climote system works best after a full heating system flush including the hot water tank. 30% saving over the year is definitely achievable.

NOTE: I work in the home energy efficiency market and have seen these savings loads of times.

Eh?
Maybe I misread your comment?
You have data from the 2 years the Climote has been in the market to back up the "loads of 30% savings" claims? Please enlighten us as to how you equate the data to show all the savings.
Also how does a system flush enhance the effectiveness of the Climote?
As you are in the business you should be able to do this easily....

Wearb · 05-06-2015 10:19pm

There used to be a lad around these parts selling a magnetic clamp that gave great efficiencies. Only thing was, that before he fitted it, he flushed the system and installed a programmable stat and a couple of zone valves. Customers were amazed at the savings. It was priced at about £200 (it was back in those £££ days) over and above the other parts and labour. Everybody was convinced that those magnets were the real biz. My boss at the time eventually persuaded a few people to remove the magnets to see if it made any difference. It was only then that the people could see that they had been ripped off.

On the plus side, the other work he was doing on the systems did give a great improvement and in all fairness, I think the same plumber believed in the system himself, until word eventually filtered back that the systems worked just as well without the magnets.

Hard to spot the snake oil sometimes.

Darocketeer · 05-06-2015 10:25pm

freddyuk wrote: »

Eh?
Maybe I misread your comment?
You have data from the 2 years the Climote has been in the market to back up the "loads of 30% savings" claims? Please enlighten us as to how you equate the data to show all the savings.
Also how does a system flush enhance the effectiveness of the Climote?
As you are in the business you should be able to do this easily....

Thanks for your 2 questions. It is an old thread though so I'm not gonna get into a long winded conversation with you. I have the Climote system installed in my house and a few family members' houses so apart from the customer feedback we gather I have the evidence of the savings in my face! I have reduced my oil expenditure to 650 down from 1000 in 2013. I also use the heating more now.
With regards to your second question, it's not difficult to imagine that if your pipes are clean, and particularly your coil inside the cylinder, the rads and cylinder heat much faster, using less oil to heat them. Common sense. It's worth noting that I have 4 ambient thermostats in my house.

antoinolachtnai · 05-06-2015 10:33pm

Darocketeer wrote: »

Thanks for your 2 questions. It is an old thread though so I'm not gonna get into a long winded conversation with you. I have the Climote system installed in my house and a few family members' houses so apart from the customer feedback we gather I have the evidence of the savings in my face! I have reduced my oil expenditure to 650 down from 1000 in 2013. I also use the heating more now.

Most of your saving arises from the drop in the price of crude oil resulting in a drop in the price of home heating oil.

http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/crude-oil/5-year/

http://www.boilerjuice.ie/home-heating-oil-prices-ireland.php

You have saved around 10 percent, or 100 euros a month. When you factor in the yearly recurring cost of the climote, you have saved 64 euros.

When you take into account that 2013 was colder than 2014 (2400 degree days as opposed to around 2160) then all your savings are gone. That accounts for you using your heat more. (http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly-data.asp?Num=532)

Egass13 · 05-06-2015 10:45pm

Darocketeer wrote: »

This is spot on advise. Only one thing missing, the Climote system works best after a full heating system flush including the hot water tank. 30% saving over the year is definitely achievable.

NOTE: I work in the home energy efficiency market and have seen these savings loads of times.

This is ridiculous. A bog standard flash timer works better with a clean system aswell. Climote is nothing more than a 3 channel programmer, with remote access. Albeit a nice one.

Darocketeer · 06-06-2015 2:45am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Most of your saving arises from the drop in the price of crude oil resulting in a drop in the price

You have saved around 10 percent, or 100 euros a month. When you factor in the yearly recurring cost of the climote, you have saved 64 euros.

When you take into account that 2013 was colder than 2014 (2400 degree days as opposed to around 2160) then all your savings are gone. That accounts for you using your heat more.

I'm in this industry so I'm well informed of the price trends of oil and gas. But it doesn't translate to the price we pay. I'm a new user so can't post articles but they would've been mostly about taxes and currency rates.

freddyuk · 06-06-2015 8:34am

Maybe you are in the business of "system power flushing" which in my view is of limited benefit in many cases. I would very much doubt that flushing the cylinder coil will have one iota of difference in performance as exactly where does the detritus settle here? Of course over many years radiators are a natural trap for debris due to the drop in flow rate here and the fact debris can sit in the bottom undisturbed but to have the effect of reducing heating in 99% of the rest of the radiator and in every radiator would not be that common and have a a tiny effect unless the system was old and unmaintained. I am sure this is what potential customers get told to justify a good old flushing. If you have done work on a system then flushing is a sensible requirement to ensure new or old disturbed debris is not sent into the pump and valves voiding the warranty. Otherwise it is just an excuse to increase the bill when fitting a very expensive thermostat. You will save much more by not heating the whole house to the same temperature as in zoning with programmable room stats.
Your data is based on small town house?? How many radiators and what is the heating demand? All other evidence seems to be anecdotal unless you have real data other than the cost of the last oil fill.
Feel free to PM me if you cannot post it as I am very interested in energy saving too in the most cost effective ways.

antoinolachtnai · 06-06-2015 8:35am

Darocketeer wrote: »

I'm in this industry so I'm well informed of the price trends of oil and gas. But it doesn't translate to the price we pay. I'm a new user so can't post articles but they would've been mostly about taxes and currency rates.

The boilerjuice website is wrong?

Egass13 · 06-06-2015 6:50pm

Darocketeer: Climote is a programmer, it has no bearing on the efficiency of a system, unless the system is zoned and even at that it's the actual zones that make it efficient, not the switch that turns them on.

FreddyUk: are you seriously suggesting cylinder coils can't get sludged up?? The restriction caused by the balancing valve makes the coil a prime target for sludge in a problematic system.

But do continue lads, this is great reading.

Also, dtp1979 is looking for an apprentice so if anybody wants to learn a bit send him a pm

freddyuk · 06-06-2015 10:17pm

I was hoping for some education from an expert on the question of Climote and flushing. I bow to your experience of course if you have found a cylinder coil blocked with sludge. In 99% of systems I doubt it would be enough to affect the output along the whole coil and certainly has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Climote but we are getting into the wrong discussion.
I have not received any PM for the record so draw your own conclusions.

Egass13 · 06-06-2015 10:26pm

freddyuk wrote: »

I was hoping for some education from an expert on the question of Climote and flushing. I bow to your experience of course if you have found a cylinder coil blocked with sludge. In 99% of systems I doubt it would be enough to affect the output along the whole coil and certainly has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Climote but we are getting into the wrong discussion.
I have not received any PM for the record so draw your own conclusions.

I've seen them blocked solid to the point of them being completely ineffective tbh.
But your right, it's neither here nor there in the argument of weather a Climote is a magical fuel saving on/off switch or not. Be interested to see what he posts to back up his theory

Dtp1979 · 07-06-2015 11:24am

freddyuk wrote: »

I was hoping for some education from an expert on the question of Climote and flushing. I bow to your experience of course if you have found a cylinder coil blocked with sludge. In 99% of systems I doubt it would be enough to affect the output along the whole coil and certainly has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Climote but we are getting into the wrong discussion.
I have not received any PM for the record so draw your own conclusions.[/quote
I do a lot of powerflushing.
I've seen several coils reduced to 1/2 bore with sludge.
So this would certainly reduce the output. What this has got to do with climote or any heating controls is beyond me

uli84 · 23-11-2015 1:22pm

is it possible to have that climote set to say 20 degrees C and when the temperature in the house goes below that it will turn on the heating and will switch it off when it goes above 20? What sorta system I need to have this functionality? that turning the heating on and off drives me mad, I'd rather have it steady...

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 23-11-2015 2:49pm

uli84 wrote: »

is it possible to have that climote set to say 20 degrees C and when the temperature in the house goes below that it will turn on the heating and will switch it off when it goes above 20? What sorta system I need to have this functionality? that turning the heating on and off drives me mad, I'd rather have it steady...

What you'd need in that case is room stats

uli84 · 23-11-2015 10:27pm

Hmm, i've got 1 of these that are on the pic i attached in the main bedroom and 1 downstairs in the hall (probably should have been in the living room) they don't seem to work tho-I set it to 16 degrees, temp in my bedroom was 19 and heating kept on running-now i have no idea why -is it possible that once it's on timer it'll run regardless of thermostat setting?

Climote Installed + Feedback

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