Question for Taxi Drivers

oisindoyle · 27-01-2009 12:26am #1

Just a question I would like to ask all taxi drivers.As most normal people can see there are far too many taxis in dublin at present (except the regulator cant see it),Could you answer the following question..
"The market will find a balance eventually".........
I ask the question and i would like to hear your answer , because I heard a few months ago from a driver an explaination that the taxi industry is different to other industries in regard to the market finding a level.Can you enlighten me as i have forgotten his answer to me .....
Thanks

Ham'nd'egger · 27-01-2009 1:05am

oisindoyle wrote: »

Just a question I would like to ask all taxi drivers.As most normal people can see there are far too many taxis in dublin at present (except the regulator cant see it),Could you answer the following question..
"The market will find a balance eventually".........
I ask the question and i would like to hear your answer , because I heard a few months ago from a driver an explaination that the taxi industry is different to other industries in regard to the market finding a level.Can you enlighten me as i have forgotten his answer to me .....
Thanks

The major problem we have in Ireland is that it is currently far too easy and far too cheap for anybody to enter the taxi trade. This allows a great many people with dodgy backgrounds and rubbish cars to enter the industry as well as almost 1% of the population that now have a PSV badge. The Taxi Regulator legitimately does not know how many taxis are active/inactive, how many are serving any one area, how many are full time/part time (I accept part time drivers have a role to play before anybody says anything) due to some bizarre changes to both plate numbering and driver ID badges that previously kept track of basic information to keep tabs on the industry. The attitude of the pre dereg plate owners merely ads to the general publics apathy and to some extend, I can't blame people for that.

The market will only find a balance if a temporary moratorium is effected or when PSV licences are made sufficiently hard to get to get to ensure we have half decent drivers without serious convictions behind them along with some sensible car standards to effect a decent car onto the roads.

KevR · 27-01-2009 11:00am

I'm not sure of the exact details but taxi drivers in Galway had a protest recently because there are too many taxis in the city. I have to say I agree with them. It's got to the stage where taxis have to queue to get into taxi ranks and this blocks streets and causes uneccessary congestion in the city centre.

Ham'nd'egger · 27-01-2009 11:22am

KevR wrote: »

I'm not sure of the exact details but taxi drivers in Galway had a protest recently because there are too many taxis in the city. I have to say I agree with them. It's got to the stage where taxis have to queue to get into taxi ranks and this blocks streets and causes uneccessary congestion in the city centre.

The anecdotal figures I hear from Galway is that the taxi numbers have gone up by a factor of 10 since 2000.

Gumbo · 27-01-2009 11:29am

there is too many drivers, not enough customers!
and thats just the legit drivers, there is a rumour that there is approx 1000 illegal taxis in Dublin at the moment, ie. having no insurance, no psv licence, no taxi plate, cloned car.

i worked as a taxi driver for nearly 7 months in 2008 when i was put on a 3 day week, some weeks 2.5 days so it was easier for me to get the taxi and work that then claim social welfare and of course more rewarding!

im glad i gave it up, as i was lucky to get a full time job doing what im qualified to do but i really agree they should put a moratorium on new plates beong issued.

there is a 9 year rule for cars comming in 2012 for all drivers (already in place for new drivers) but i think they should judge the taxis on individual tests only. i have seen 2007 avensis's in rag order while i have seen 1992 mercs in pristine condition as taxis.

oisindoyle · 27-01-2009 6:33pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

The major problem we have in Ireland is that it is currently far too easy and far too cheap for anybody to enter the taxi trade. This allows a great many people with dodgy backgrounds and rubbish cars to enter the industry as well as almost 1% of the population that now have a PSV badge. The Taxi Regulator legitimately does not know how many taxis are active/inactive, how many are serving any one area, how many are full time/part time (I accept part time drivers have a role to play before anybody says anything) Isnt it the part timers who are making it harder for full time nite drivers? i personally think part timers shouldnt be allowed go out at nite and work given that they would have done a full days work and then drive people til the early hours of the morning ,thats just dangerous to me and GREEDY..due to some bizarre changes to both plate numbering and driver ID badges that previously kept track of basic information to keep tabs on the industry. The attitude of the pre dereg plate owners merely ads to the general publics apathy and to some extend, I can't blame people for that.What attitude is that ? Sure theres more "new " drivers out there now than pre deg reg guys ,what problem do you have with them ?

The market will only find a balance if a temporary moratorium is effected or when PSV licences are made sufficiently hard to get to get to ensure we have half decent drivers without serious convictions behind them along with some sensible car standards to effect a decent car onto the roads.[/quote]From what i gather all taxis have to get an NCT done every year so cars are ok .But I stil dont get where people say it will balance out how can it ???

Gumbo · 27-01-2009 7:42pm

oisindoyle wrote: »

Hamndegger wrote: »

The major problem we have in Ireland is that it is currently far too easy and far too cheap for anybody to enter the taxi trade. This allows a great many people with dodgy backgrounds and rubbish cars to enter the industry as well as almost 1% of the population that now have a PSV badge. The Taxi Regulator legitimately does not know how many taxis are active/inactive, how many are serving any one area, how many are full time/part time (I accept part time drivers have a role to play before anybody says anything) Isnt it the part timers who are making it harder for full time nite drivers? i personally think part timers shouldnt be allowed go out at nite and work given that they would have done a full days work and then drive people til the early hours of the morning ,thats just dangerous to me and GREEDY..due to some bizarre changes to both plate numbering and driver ID badges that previously kept track of basic information to keep tabs on the industry. The attitude of the pre dereg plate owners merely ads to the general publics apathy and to some extend, I can't blame people for that.What attitude is that ? Sure theres more "new " drivers out there now than pre deg reg guys ,what problem do you have with them ?

The market will only find a balance if a temporary moratorium is effected or when PSV licences are made sufficiently hard to get to get to ensure we have half decent drivers without serious convictions behind them along with some sensible car standards to effect a decent car onto the roads.[/quote]From what i gather all taxis have to get an NCT done every year so cars are ok .But I stil dont get where people say it will balance out how can it ???

very hard to read your post.
but some part timers dont have other jobs, they have decent pensions, redundancy packages etc etc and they taxi for extra pocket cash.

i would like the goverment to stop taxi plates to people who have other jobs, but then how would they go about buying back all the plates that are out there owned by part timers.

its like telling somebody that works in an office during the day that they are not allowed work as a barman on a friday or satuarday night, i dont think it will happen imo

Ham'nd'egger · 27-01-2009 8:51pm

oisindoyle wrote: »

Hamndegger wrote: »

The major problem we have in Ireland is that it is currently far too easy and far too cheap for anybody to enter the taxi trade. This allows a great many people with dodgy backgrounds and rubbish cars to enter the industry as well as almost 1% of the population that now have a PSV badge. The Taxi Regulator legitimately does not know how many taxis are active/inactive, how many are serving any one area, how many are full time/part time (I accept part time drivers have a role to play before anybody says anything) due to some bizarre changes to both plate numbering and driver ID badges that previously kept track of basic information to keep tabs on the industry. The attitude of the pre dereg plate owners merely ads to the general publics apathy and to some extend, I can't blame people for that.

The market will only find a balance if a temporary moratorium is effected or when PSV licences are made sufficiently hard to get to get to ensure we have half decent drivers without serious convictions behind them along with some sensible car standards to effect a decent car onto the roads.[/quote]

Isnt it the part timers who are making it harder for full time nite drivers? i personally think part timers shouldnt be allowed go out at nite and work given that they would have done a full days work and then drive people til the early hours of the morning ,thats just dangerous to me and GREEDY..

The problem with part time drivers is unlike say bar work when they come in for short defined shifts at peak times, they are not controlled with any set hour patterns so they can easily go out on a day off or weekends or spare time in the evenings. Certainly there is some people who will need two incomes but there is a lot more who are earning drink money or whatever. It sounds like little enough but take what they ear from those who are full time and it's another cutback to make up for. The part time guys may have their car and road expenses paid for (legally, I add) on a day wage and any taxi monies earned won't have to cover the overheads that full time drivers have to cover from one income.

From what i gather all taxis have to get an NCT done every year so cars are ok .But I stil dont get where people say it will balance out how can it ???

In time, this will phase out some sorts of cars as well as older motors. Some cars are too small to be sanely considered as a taxi (Hyundai Accents, Skoda Fabias, FIAT Puntos and Ford Escorts; I have even seen a Peugout 207 as a taxi!) and it may push some guys out of the business if they feel it's too pricey to upgrade given circumstances.

What attitude is that ? Sure theres more "new " drivers out there now than pre deg reg guys ,what problem do you have with them ?

Many people think of the old days of 2,700 taxis and long walks home at night and the long years of these drivers refusing to agree to the issuing of new plates and this gets some people looking on drivers with disdain and little pity. Many newer drivers who took new plates were either renting the car (cosy drivers), renting the plate or hackney drivers who were paying huge figures to drive or on defined times on the road and are not too enamoured with the same old plate owners, some of whom owned multiples of plates and were too willing to control the supply for their own gains.

artful_codger · 27-01-2009 10:06pm

KevR wrote: »

I'm not sure of the exact details but taxi drivers in Galway had a protest recently because there are too many taxis in the city. I have to say I agree with them. It's got to the stage where taxis have to queue to get into taxi ranks and this blocks streets and causes uneccessary congestion in the city centre.

imagine I.T workers protesting because there's too many I.T workers in Ireland, imagine Gardai protesting because there's too many Gardai, imagine builders protesting because there's too many builders. What a ridiculous concept.... who do Taxi drivers think they are? if they don't like the job, they can get another one.

Trampas · 27-01-2009 10:28pm

artful_codger wrote: »

imagine I.T workers protesting because there's too many I.T workers in Ireland, imagine Gardai protesting because there's too many Gardai, imagine builders protesting because there's too many builders. What a ridiculous concept.... who do Taxi drivers think they are? if they don't like the job, they can get another one.

+1

Taxi drivers brought this on themselves. They were asked to be out there but they didn't bother. Worked when they felt like it or else rented the plate out for a nice few quid

oisindoyle · 27-01-2009 10:28pm

artful_codger wrote: »

imagine I.T workers protesting because there's too many I.T workers in Ireland, imagine Gardai protesting because there's too many Gardai, imagine builders protesting because there's too many builders. What a ridiculous concept.... who do Taxi drivers think they are? if they don't like the job, they can get another one.

You cannot compare like with like .Its a non argument.
Its not a ridiculous concept ,its a fact that Dublin has too many taxis ,Its a fact that Ireland has more taxis than any other country in europe.Itsa fact that the taxi industry in is chaos.

Swords driver · 27-01-2009 11:42pm

artful_codger, Trampas. I'm not going to quote your posts. But having worked in one of the mentioned industries before becoming a taxi driver I would like to point out a few things.
When does a guard have compete with anyone, he's a public servant and the number of guards employed by the state is proportional to state budget and crime figures (I hope). To apply this logic to the taxi industry would involve introducing a quota system similar to that used in other European and US cities.
Employee's do not have to compete (as a rule) with people that are being subsidised by the state for up to 3 years. Other self employed business people are rewarded for excellence by repeat/return custom, how does this work in the taxi industry ?.
Please at least research the topic before being so flippant with your comments, it insults your own intelligence.

Davidth88 · 28-01-2009 8:26am

When I was as school I did simple economics, the most basic rule I learnt was

' Supply and Demand '

There are now a plentiful supply of taxis on the ground ( from the punters' point of view ) , so what did the taxi regulator do.... increase the fares !

That goes against the principle of supply and demand.

I agree with posters who mention the rubbish order of some taxis, a lot are in good nick , however how many 92 Corrolas are out there ? There has to be some regulation , I am against a blanket rule, but if you look at the way the minicab business is regulated in London now...

Cars inspected regularly ( not NCT/MOT but to ensure they are clean and also that they are in decent nick )
Drivers get drug tested , yes DRUG TESTED !

I find the fact that drivers here can get a psv licence with a criminal conviction shocking to be honest.

Thanks to the advise from various taxi driver posters here , I now check the ID plates etc when I get in a cab , I also know that I don't have to take the first car in the rank ( so I will not be taking that tatty corrola thank you ).

Taxi drivers , to some extent you are artists of your own downfall , the crazy situation that existed pre-deregulation where you had more chance of winning the lottery than getting a taxi on a rainy Sat night was not sustaintable.

Unfortunatly the gvmt ' threw he baby our with the bathwater ' , in that deregulation seemed to mean just that, with anyone being able to be a taxi.

I think the answer lies in greater regulation , this will force the bad drivers/cars off the business , but this really needs to be carefully done so as not to destroy perfectly legitimate drivers off the road.

james116 · 28-01-2009 9:05am

i was reading the sunday world yesterday (i khow i am a bit slow)but there was a story about a guy that got shot he was a drug dealer and he had been in mountjoy but yet he was driveing a taxi as well is that what u want to drive u all home on a saturday nite when u have a few beers in u and then for somebody to come a long side him in the car and to start shooting and u get hit cos the t r did't vet him if that is want some of u want so be it but don'y say that u where not warned cos it will happen mark my words and before people get on and have a go before dereg there was no late dart or buses and the luas and not around so if u had 500,000 people on the streets looking to get home at the same time there would be q's

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 9:30am

Davidth88, Just to expand on your points.

The simple economic rules do not apply in all cases, and the taxi industry is one such case. The other factors that must be taken into account when considering the economics of the industry are -
Government intervention - as in rules and regulations, price fixing, grant aiding selective entrants, maintaining entry point, transport plans.
Competition - Unlike most businesses, the customer flags the next available taxi and does not take the standard of the car or driver ( which to be fair, they most likely never saw before) into account as would be done when spending cash elsewhere.
Taxi's are a part of any cities transport system and provide services in area's not economical for full scale public services.

"Rubbish cars", There is no excuse for bangers in the trade, it is obvious that something is amiss with the NCT when so many bangers and unsuitable cars can be seen any day, but at the end of the day it's up to the customer not to use these cars and actually reward the guys who try to provide a service with your custom.

"Drug test", I'm not sure if such a problem exists in the industry, but yes the guards should be able to check for drug use at any checkpoint, just as with drink.

"criminal conviction" Shocking, but true and many criminals have laundered dirty money by buying taxi plates and renting them out. This is a well known fact and yet the Regulator, Garda nor the courts do anything about it.

"pre-deregulation" Its 9 years ago, the vast majority of drivers were not driving taxi's then and find it somewhat tedious that it is even seen as the same industry today, it was wrong and the way it is today is equally wrong.

mdebets · 28-01-2009 9:50am

Swords driver wrote: »

The simple economic rules do not apply in all cases, and the taxi industry is one such case.

Why is this? I see many posts here claiming this but no real explanation.
I think it's quite simple and the market will regulate itself. If there is a oversupply and taxidriver are not earning enough to make a living they will exit the business which will lead to a reduction in supply. This will happen until the supply is so low again that the remaining drivers will earn enough to stay in the industry, so no need for regulation (other than the obvious, like vetting the Drivers making sure the cars are clean and safe etc.).

Davidth88 · 28-01-2009 10:48am

Is the NCT for taxi's the same as for private cars ?

If so this is totally inadiquate , after all the NCT just checks for roadworthyness. It does not check to make sure the car is suitable for private hire.

Of course the customers need to start getting ' picky ' too, if a car is in a bad state don't get into it , a few weeks without a fare may make these people either get out of the business or change their car.

Why isn't a criminal background check done ? This is the most basic of checks ( or is it ) . I think taxi drivers have to produce tax compliance certs , but don't have to prove they are not convicted rapists.... thats just mad !

I don't think the technology exists to check for drug use on the roadside yet ( or at least it's in it's infancy ) . A driver should be required to have a annual ( or six monthly ) drug test ( check the hair , assuming they have any of course

) Why the hair because drug use remains in there as far as I know.

In Sweden taxis have devices fitted ( or the ones I have been in do ) where the driver has to blow in to prove they have no drink taken before the taxi will move...... why not ? , these devices should also be fitted on buses I believe too.

As for the rule of economics not being applicable to taxis , sorry they are , that's why the ranks are full , and all of the drivers are complaining they have no fares.

You have to either reduce the prices , or the supply.

I think reducing the prices isn't a bad idea ( as a punter ) , but then if you expect taxis to be of a reasonable standard its not really reasonable.

By the way , I think Taxi drivers have to pay VAT/VRT on taxi's ... why not allow them to claim that back against earnings made ? That way they would be able to afford decent cars

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 11:22am

mdebets, To a point I agree with you, but in the open market it is assumed and illegal for the state to subsidise any participant. It is illegal for the state or the participants to fix prices. The reason that the state fixes prices is to prevent profiteering in the industry which would occur when demand is high.
Deregulation has been a failure ! In some countries regulatory measures are being re-introduced. The positive expectations with respect to deregulation of the taxi industry were based on the belief that the industry is an atomistic industry with minor fixed costs which should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs. Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive.

I will put forward some points for you to consider
- Perfect competition requires that consumers can choose between different producers of goods and services at low costs. Depending on the organisation of the taxi market (cruising market or dispatch system), market participants will face smaller or higher search costs.
- As repeat producer-customer relationships are rare, taxi service consumers face uncertainty about the taxi quality. As the customers cannot ex ante check for example the safety of the vehicle or the driving abilities of the driver only ex post. In the absence of regulation and given the transaction costs in the market, the competitive pressures in the taxi industry will induce low quality services as a result of providers exploiting the ex ante imperfect information of the customers.
- Deregulation of entry increases the average costs of the service as more idle capacity in the form of cruising empty taxis or taxis waiting at the taxi ranks will be available.

It is up to the state to decide the type of service the taxi industry provides and how it sits in the overall transport plan, should it be an industry with high progressive standards, with a corresponding return for the investments made by the participants or a service that is operating at the lowest possible cost with minimal standards and controls. I feel that like many industries were state controls inhibit the operation of the free market, a quota system should be put in place to ensure adequate service to the public and ensuring that returns are such as to allow participants maintain a high standard of product. The problem with this is that the current numbers in the industry are far in excess of what is required to provide a realistic quota system.

Again, I would ask that comments that invoke an economics argument do so with a basis in accepted economic theory and precedent, it is accepted worldwide that some industries do not operate correctly in the free market model and the taxi industry is one and many cities that went down the deregulation and open entry path's in the past have been forced to re-regulate because of the fall in standards and rise in pricing.

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 11:50am

Davidth88, I'm I the only taxi driver involved in this thread :eek:.

NCT, Every taxi must pass a suitability test before being passed out as a taxi, thereafter an annual standard NCT with the addition of cleanliness of car.

Picky customers- Yes they should !!. But from experience, at 3am, full of beer in the rain the next banger will get the fare. Thats why the industry needs to be highly regulated.

Criminal background- A person refused a psv on the basis of criminal conviction under Sec 36 Road Traffic Act will appeal to the circuit court on the grounds that the state has denied them the right to earn a living, in most case's they will win. The result of this is that there are some pretty serious criminals and rapist's driving taxi's.
Many (not all) non-irish entrants to the industry cannot provide a checkable history and so create a double standard that discriminates against Irish entrants.

Drug/drink tests - I've no problem with that, but should it not apply to everyone that drives !!!.

Rules of economics - pls see previous post.

VRT- This should be removed from vehicles used as taxi's and could be used to enhance the service being tied in with car colour, models and income tax.

As you can see, you will not get much argument from realistic participants in the industry when the suggestions are to the benefit of the consumer and do not take drivers for ill educated baffoons. I for one want to do the best I can for my customers and in doing so, make a living that reflects my effort and investment. Talk of minimum wage and such crap is a waste of time and effort, try telling a shop keeper or publican that his profits must reflect the minimum wage and you will get a very short answer not to mention being on IBEC's hit list

Sleipnir · 28-01-2009 12:01pm

Davidth88 wrote: »

Of course the customers need to start getting ' picky ' too, if a car is in a bad state don't get into it , a few weeks without a fare may make these people either get out of the business or change their car.

Yeah I did that a few weeks ago. 1st in the rank was a bet-up Volkswagan Jetta which I wouldn't mind too much but when I opened the door and looked at the state of the back sit I said "I'm not sitting on that" and went to the next one.
Driver got out and berated me and the driver of the taxi I got into. Roaring at the two of us and calling me every name he could think of!
Seriously, it was like the the mould that had been growing on the seat had just been scraped off that morning.

Another time there was a bet up taxi at the front and a newish 7 series BMW in the 2nd slot. I'll take the BMW with the leather upholstery over a 98 Primera any day!
Again, driver got out and started shouting at me.

meanmachine3 · 28-01-2009 12:17pm

Swords driver wrote: »

Davidth88, I'm I the only taxi driver involved in this thread :eek:.

i beg to differ here swords. there have been 3 posts by a taxi driver before your first post and you'd also find that this guy posts in most threads to do with taxi drivers.while i have made my feelings clear in previous threads regarding my views on taxi drivers i have come to respect views of this driver and his colleague who i haven't seen here in a while.
i believe theres a taxi strike planned for mon in dublin at 08.30 the thing that gets me though is i bet those that have got their plates in the last couple of weeks will be part of this protest calling for an end to de-reg.

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 12:52pm

I thinks its crazy the amount of moaning taxi drivers do. Basically its an unskilled job. Pretty much all of the adult population drives. Therefore, anyone can get into it. Just like anyone could stack shelves, serve drinks etc. Jobs like this don't command a wage premium therefore drivers really shouldn't expect to make more than minimum wage per hour. If there not making this amount they may wish to exit the industry. Eventually, supply will equal demand.

Gumbo · 28-01-2009 12:55pm

jack90210 wrote: »

I thinks its crazy the amount of moaning taxi drivers do. Basically its an unskilled job. Pretty much all of the adult population drives. Therefore, anyone can get into it. Just like anyone could stack shelves, serve drinks etc. Jobs like this don't command a wage premium therefore drivers really shouldn't expect to make more than minimum wage per hour. If there not making this amount they may wish to exit the industry. Eventually, supply will equal demand.

yes but shelf stackers dont have the overhead costs of a taxi driver!
insurance
petrol
road tax
nct fee
licence renewal fee
service costs including cleaning etc

if thats your argument, then why do bus drivers get above min wage? all the do is drive too?

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 12:58pm

kceire wrote: »

yes but shelf stackers dont have the overhead costs of a taxi driver!
insurance
petrol
road tax
nct fee
licence renewal fee
service costs including cleaning etc

If costs are too much to make a sufficient wage the driver should exit the industry.

if thats your argument, then why do bus drivers get above min wage? all the do is drive too?

Driving a bus is more complicated then driving a car and a special licence (high qualification) is required therefore they command a higher wage.

Gumbo · 28-01-2009 1:02pm

jack90210 wrote: »

If costs are too much to make a sufficient wage the driver should exit the industry.

Driving a bus is more complicated then driving a car and a special licence (high qualification) is required therefore they command a higher wage.

if all taxi drivers started to earn min wage then there would be NO taxis left in Ireland! min wage cannot keep a taxi on the road full stop. im sorry but you dont really know what your talking about imo.

driving a bus does indeed require a specific licence above the standard B, but then again so does a taxi, it requires a PSV licence which is over and above the standard B licence! so theres that argument out the window.

and before you go saying that anybody can apply for a PSV licence, anybody can also apply for a HGV licence, Bus licence etc etc

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:05pm

kceire wrote: »

if all taxi drivers started to earn min wage then there would be NO taxis left in Ireland! min wage cannot keep a taxi on the road full stop. im sorry but you dont really know what your talking about imo.

So what your saying then at the moment drivers are clearly not making min wage as there are thousands of taxi's on the road. So there all obviously earning enough if there on the road. Whats the problem? Greed?

driving a bus does indeed require a specific licence above the standard B, but then again so does a taxi, it requires a PSV licence which is over and above the standard B licence! so theres that argument out the window.

and before you go saying that anybody can apply for a PSV licence, anybody can also apply for a HGV licence, Bus licence etc etc

PSV license is obviously easier to get then HGV or Bus licence otherwise the wages in those industries would equalise with the others.

Gumbo · 28-01-2009 1:12pm

jack90210 wrote: »

So what your saying then at the moment drivers are clearly not making min wage as there are thousands of taxi's on the road. So there all obviously earning enough if there on the road. Whats the problem? Greed?

PSV license is obviously easier to get then HGV or Bus licence otherwise the wages in those industries would equalise with the others.

jack what are you on about?
taxi drivers need more than min wage because min wage cant keep the taxi on the road!

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:20pm

kceire wrote: »

jack what are you on about?
taxi drivers need more than min wage because min wage cant keep the taxi on the road!

Ok ill explain this one more time. This is first year economics first class. Demand = Supply. If Supply exceeds demand then the suppliers receive a lower price. If the price the receive is too low they exit the industry thus reducing supply and the price recieved increases. (You will say "but we dont set prices", no but price here can translate into the amount of business you receive). Therefore including costs if drivers aren't making a wage they feel is good enough they should leave and do something else. At the moment drivers haven't a leg to stand on as there are thousands of them so they are obviously making enough if so many of them can afford to stay on the road.

If you don't understand this I give up.

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 1:20pm

jack90210 wrote: »

I thinks its crazy the amount of moaning taxi drivers do. Basically its an unskilled job.

Jack90210, Your comments ignore that which is plainly obvious. A taxi driver is self employed, so why do you persist in comparing the incomparable. What rate of income do feel self employed people should be tied too ?. What premium do you feel is appropriate to someone who takes the risks involved in being self employed and deciding to work in an industry that exposes them to risk's not taken in being employed. I have made several posts to this thread and I have not moaned once as far as I can see. Yes, many taxi men moan and fail to put forward a coherent argument when talking to the media, but it is their livelihood and futures that are being played with by people who refuse to acknowledge the problems for them and the consumer in the industry that is in fact heavily regulated in the wrong ways.

Like many industries the current economic environment will cause many people to fall out of the business, but that does not mean that changes to improve the industry for both the participants and the consumer should not be implemented and as I've stated in my previous posts the basic free market rules are somewhat short in dealing with this sector.

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:27pm

Swords driver wrote: »

Jack90210, Your comments ignore that which is plainly obvious. A taxi driver is self employed, so why do you persist in comparing the incomparable. What rate of income do feel self employed people should be tied too ?. What premium do you feel is appropriate to someone who takes the risks involved in being self employed and deciding to work in an industry that exposes them to risk's not taken in being employed.

The market rate. Where supply equals demand. If I set up a roof cleaning business for a random example. I wouldn't just expect to make a certain amount per week it would depend on the amount of competitors I have and the level of demand for my services. Why did you join or why do you remain in an industry with such an oversupply of competitors?

Like many industries the current economic environment will cause many people to fall out of the business, but that does not mean that changes to improve the industry for both the participants and the consumer should not be implemented and as I've stated in my previous posts the basic free market rules are somewhat short in dealing with this sector.

I'm all for certain changes: reducing illegal taxis, improving the quality of taxis, reducing the obviously too high fare etc. But free entry and exit must remain to ensure the pre regulation days do not return.

Gumbo · 28-01-2009 1:41pm

jack90210 wrote: »

Ok ill explain this one more time. This is first year economics first class. Demand = Supply. If Supply exceeds demand then the suppliers receive a lower price. If the price the receive is too low they exit the industry thus reducing supply and the price recieved increases. (You will say "but we dont set prices", no but price here can translate into the amount of business you receive). Therefore including costs if drivers aren't making a wage they feel is good enough they should leave and do something else. At the moment drivers haven't a leg to stand on as there are thousands of them so they are obviously making enough if so many of them can afford to stay on the road.

If you don't understand this I give up.

i will explain one more time, if you dont understand jack then i give up.
first year maths here.

it doesnt matter how many taxis are out there, your argument for min wage will not keep them on the road. as you yourself compared them to a shelf stacker then its this comparision i will use.

if drivers earn min wage then othe areas will suffer ie upkeep of the car, cleaniness of the car etc etc

Ham'nd'egger · 28-01-2009 1:43pm

jack90210 wrote: »

The market rate. Where supply equals demand. If I set up a roof cleaning business for a random example. I wouldn't just expect to make a certain amount per week it would depend on the amount of competitors I have and the level of demand for my services. Why did you join or why do you remain in an industry with such an oversupply of competitors?

I'm all for certain changes: reducing illegal taxis, improving the quality of taxis, reducing the obviously too high fare etc. But free entry and exit must remain to ensure the pre regulation days do not return.

Jack, would you set up roof cleaning businesses when people live in flats?

Would you hire a roof cleaner just because he is 20% cheaper even when your roof is clean?

Does it need cleaning 8 times a week?

Would you hire a roof cleaner with vertigo?

Can you not clean your own roof?

Will your staff fight for customers?

Will customers turn you away if your brush is old or your uniform isn't smart enough?

Can you afford the bill when it's done?

Are the staff insured and skilled and trained properly?

Will they steal from open windows given the chance?

If you can't work, who will work for your company?

I only ask as there is far more variables in every single industry than just page one supply-demand. If the taxi trade worked on that simple model, I'd charge €20 on a Saturday night and €40 at 3AM and €10 on a Monday. But legally I can't.

In Ireland, the chief issue in Taxis is the ready ease of entry to the trade that causes the over supply. Other issues serve to make the trade a laughing stock of the land.

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:47pm

kceire wrote: »

i will explain one more time, if you dont understand jack then i give up.
first year maths here.

it doesnt matter how many taxis are out there, your argument for min wage will not keep them on the road. as you yourself compared them to a shelf stacker then its this comparision i will use.

if drivers earn min wage then othe areas will suffer ie upkeep of the car, cleaniness of the car etc etc

lol. I tried.:rolleyes:

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:50pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Jack, would you set up roof cleaning businesses when people live in flats?

Would you hire a roof cleaner just because he is 20% cheaper even when your roof is clean?

Does it need cleaning 8 times a week?

Would you hire a roof cleaner with vertigo?

Can you not clean your own roof?

Will your staff fight for customers?

Will customers turn you away if your brush is old or your uniform isn't smart enough?

Can you afford the bill when it's done?

Are the staff insured and skilled and trained properly?

Will they steal from open windows given the chance?

If you can't work, who will work for your company?

I only ask as there is far more variables in every single industry than just page one supply-demand. If the taxi trade worked on that simple model, I'd charge €20 on a Saturday night and €40 at 3AM and €10 on a Monday. But legally I can't.

In Ireland, the chief issue in Taxis is the ready ease of entry to the trade that causes the over supply. Other issues serve to make the trade a laughing stock of the land.

All those factors would be risks I'd have to consider before setting up. They are called risks of entering a business. Thank you for pointing them out and helping me prove my point.

I dont think even on Saturday night there is any shortage of taxis. You might have to wait 5 mins instead of 0.5 mins. I do believe however the price is set too high at off peak times. Drivers should begin offering discounts to attract repeat business.

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 1:52pm

jack90210 wrote: »

Ok ill explain this one more time. This is first year economics first class. Demand = Supply. I

Ah Jack90210, your not reading my posts. Please quote industry specific publication's that currently accept an unmodified model of the supply=demand principle of economics for the industry. Many countries and cities have tried to apply this model with varying degree's of success and failure, in fact most US cities have reverted to the pre-dereg position after the failures caused major concerns for the consumer and the industry participants.

Perhaps Jack90210 you should further your studies in economics by covering
Pareto efficiency and Kaldor-Hicks efficiency and read some papers and case studies on the taxi industry, they make interesting reading at least from my point of view.

jack90210 · 28-01-2009 1:56pm

Swords driver wrote: »

Ah Jack90210, your not reading my posts. Please quote industry specific publication's that currently accept an unmodified model of the supply=demand principle of economics for the industry. Many countries and cities have tried to apply this model with varying degree's of success and failure, in fact most US cities have reverted to the pre-dereg position after the failures caused major concerns for the consumer and the industry participants.

Perhaps Jack90210 you should further your studies in economics by covering
Pareto efficiency and Kaldor-Hicks efficiency and read some papers and case studies on the taxi industry, they make interesting reading at least from my point of view.

I am a qualified economist so I do know what I'm talking about. Now I really couldn't be bothered doing any research to prove a point on an internet forum but needless to say deregulation has been a pareto improvement for non deregulation. Currently we are an adjustment period in the industry whereby the supernormal profits previously earned attracted large number of entrants this has led to opposite situation eventually the balance will be found.

Gumbo · 28-01-2009 2:12pm

jack90210 wrote: »

lol. I tried.:rolleyes:

not that much imo
no substance to your posts!

pepsicokeacola · 28-01-2009 2:15pm

i honestly feel sorry for the good taxi drivers(irish or immigrants) out there.

its a joke how easy it is to get on the road.

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 2:19pm

jack90210 wrote: »

I am a qualified economist so I do know what I'm talking about. Now I really couldn't be bothered doing any research to prove a point on an internet forum but needless to say deregulation has been a pareto improvement for non deregulation. Currently we are an adjustment period in the industry whereby the supernormal profits previously earned attracted large number of entrants this has led to opposite situation eventually the balance will be found.

OK Jack90210, I did not question your basic tenet, just the over simplified application of it. The market will take it's course, come what may. But to make broad swiping assumptions without properly acquiring the knowledge needed to make such declarations even on a forum is wrong. The taxi industry is going through an adjustment period, but as the industry and its markets are tilted by external interventions it is only right that the views of its participants and customers are taken on board when trying to adjust the regulations to ensure the service is in keeping with expectations of everyone involved. The industry will never return to the pre-reg days and even from my position this is as it should be, I must say I have enjoyed our little spat and hope that you take the time to look at the economic models that have been used in various places to enhance the industry.

artful_codger · 28-01-2009 9:04pm

Swords driver wrote: »

artful_codger, Trampas. I'm not going to quote your posts. But having worked in one of the mentioned industries before becoming a taxi driver I would like to point out a few things.
When does a guard have compete with anyone, he's a public servant and the number of guards employed by the state is proportional to state budget and crime figures (I hope). To apply this logic to the taxi industry would involve introducing a quota system similar to that used in other European and US cities.
Employee's do not have to compete (as a rule) with people that are being subsidised by the state for up to 3 years. Other self employed business people are rewarded for excellence by repeat/return custom, how does this work in the taxi industry ?.
Please at least research the topic before being so flippant with your comments, it insults your own intelligence.

i'd agree to a limit on the number of taxi drivers under the following circumstances which those of us in the private sector have to adhere to.

1) in order to become a taxi driver you have to apply with a full CV to the regulatory body and, if selected, attend two panel interviews and also a technical test. The panel will judge you by a broad range of factors including interpersonal skills, time management, work experience, customer service and work references.
2) if you are offered the job of a taxi driver you must sign a contract with your employer which states the dress code, hours of operation, minimum number of hours per week you must work, the number of sick days you can take and the consequences of not fulfilling your contractual obligations. There'll be a minimum salary stated in the contract, but you will be required to work unpaid overtime during busy periods.
3) once you're a taxi driver you must have performance reviews every six months with the regulatory body, where they'll review how you've done and whether you've earned a pay increase or not. Those who show the most enthusiasm, initiative and work hardest get the pay increase, the stragglers get nothing. If a taxi driver continues to underperform over a period of time, they can be sacked and must apply for the taxi driving job all over again.

Swords driver · 28-01-2009 10:21pm

artful_codger, been there done that. But again you are missing the target by a mile, taxi drivers are in the main self employed, not employee's. Even so we do sign a contract with the state to provide a service to the public, a kind of Public Private Partnership. We do have an annual review of our work place and we do have a bi-annual review of fare's, we do have disciplinary procedures. We are vetted by the state (well some are not).

We do not have employer contributions to our pension funds.
We do not have the right to social welfare benefits if unable to work.
We do not have an agreed salary.

As your aware I could go on comparing the differences between self employment and being an employee. You will agree that the self employed opt to take a greater risk and investment in their chosen occupation and would then reasonably expect to earn a premium over being an employee.

Spook_ie · 28-01-2009 11:51pm

jack90210 wrote: »

I am a qualified economist so I do know what I'm talking about.

Oh say no more, just look at what the qualified economists and bankers of the world have done for us........:cool:

Spook_ie · 28-01-2009 11:58pm

jack90210 wrote: »

I thinks its crazy the amount of moaning taxi drivers do. Basically its an unskilled job. Pretty much all of the adult population drives. Therefore, anyone can get into it. Just like anyone could stack shelves, serve drinks etc. Jobs like this don't command a wage premium therefore drivers really shouldn't expect to make more than minimum wage per hour. If there not making this amount they may wish to exit the industry. Eventually, supply will equal demand.

OK let me ask you one basic question, why is a shelf stacker ( or any other worker ) only entitled to earn minimum wage?

Spook_ie · 29-01-2009 7:06am

jack90210 wrote: »

I thinks its crazy the amount of moaning taxi drivers do. Basically its an unskilled job. Pretty much all of the adult population drives. Therefore, anyone can get into it. Just like anyone could stack shelves, serve drinks etc. Jobs like this don't command a wage premium therefore drivers really shouldn't expect to make more than minimum wage per hour. If there not making this amount they may wish to exit the industry. Eventually, supply will equal demand.

I was just re-reading your post and the one (fairly obvious ) thing you seem to have missed from the equation, it wouldn't be a case of earning minimum wage but one of earning minimum wage PLUS the running costs of the business ( car replacement, pension provisions, maintainence of car etc. etc. )

Ham'nd'egger · 29-01-2009 12:32pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

I was just re-reading your post and the one (fairly obvious ) thing you seem to have missed from the equation, it wouldn't be a case of earning minimum wage but one of earning minimum wage PLUS the running costs of the business ( car replacement, pension provisions, maintainence of car etc. etc. )

Actually Spookie, you are right; he doesn't even notice that taxi drivers, like all sole trading workers, can conceivably make less than the minimum wage before expenses. The best he can come up with is to hide behind "market forces" when a few choice facts are put to him. Good economist, eh:rolleyes:

Spook_ie · 30-01-2009 8:06am

Hamndegger wrote: »

Actually Spookie, you are right; he doesn't even notice that taxi drivers, like all sole trading workers, can conceivably make less than the minimum wage before expenses. The best he can come up with is to hide behind "market forces" when a few choice facts are put to him. Good economist, eh:rolleyes:

Well to be fair he probably mitched off of Economics 102, dealing with real life.....;)

Ham'nd'egger · 30-01-2009 12:42pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Well to be fair he probably mitched off of Economics 102, dealing with real life.....;)

Like 50% of posters here, in that case:D

Spook_ie · 30-01-2009 5:38pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Like 50% of posters here, in that case:D

Only 50%..... I take it you mitched off maths

Ham'nd'egger · 30-01-2009 9:34pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Only 50%..... I take it you mitched off maths

I did Pass Level Statistics; I can allow for a greater margin of error;)

Palmy · 04-02-2009 12:23am

Simple just do like in america where taxis are yellow cabs.Having to pay a good amount of money for a good manufactored taxi that would sort the industry out with part timers and old clapped out cars on the road.With only leaving an industry with people willing and able to invest time and money in an industry they want to work in.Never been to a country before where it is so lax in getting a licence and the type of vechicle reqiured for a taxi (road worthy)

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