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Legality of putting Speed Ramps in Private Housing Estates

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    #92
    vrusinov
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭vrusinov


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In the Netherlands, for example, there are residential woonerfen where cars are parked in areas away from houses. Very peaceful and quiet, in my experience. Also, many Dutch city and town centres are still open to motor vehicles, but because so many people cycle (including children and the elderly), and because speeds are kept so low, it's as if there's no traffic at all. Speed limits may be as low as 20 km/h or even 'walking speed'. On some streets you can wait several minutes and no car will pass by, whereas in Ireland you often have to wait several minutes for a chance to cross the road.

    In the Netherlands there's also very small amount of speed bumps. There's plenty of horizontal traffic calming measures but almost no bumps.

    Speaking about cyclists - I absolutely hate speed bumps as a cyclist.


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    #93
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    I recall passing through a Dutch village with a 20 km/h speed limit. Open road, no traffic calming. The speedometer on the car started at 20 km/h, not zero!

    Perhaps there are few speed bumps in the Netherlands because motorists there are more law-abiding?

    If Irish motorists don't want speed bumps, then the solution is obvious. Until the culture of speeding and casual disregard of road traffic regulations dies out, traffic calming will remain a necessary evil.

    Speed ramps/bumps don't bother me as a cyclist. Horizontal deflections -- eg build-outs, road narrowings etc -- are worse, because they make cyclists the meat in the traffic calming sandwich. Ireland is full of such horrors, especially along main roads through villages. I never came across anything of that sort in the Netherlands.


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    #94
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Call motorists "self-centred" without basis; then express an entirely selfish preference for a type of calming. Fantastic logic.

    I await a page of likely contradictory URLs, with no explanation of them; a few veiled insults and attempts to deflect from the topic and then some posts that make absolutely no sense at all, potentially quoting from an 18th/19th century satarist or at least trying to appear like one but possibly just incoherent.


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    #95
    worded
    Registered Users Posts: 4,535 ✭✭✭worded


    Leave a suitable gap at the side free for chclists if installing them plastic ones

    Muppets in a place where I lived showed no regard for cyclists and installed them right up to the foot paths. Near impossible to get over if you are carrying a child in a child seat without dismounting


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    #96
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    bjork wrote: »
    Source: You ^^

    You're asking me to give evidence of an absense. I'm asking for evidence of some incidence.

    It's like asking me for evidence that no people in Dublin have being eaten by Crocodiles, while insisting they have.


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    #97
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    You're asking me to give evidence of an absense. I'm asking for evidence of some incidence.

    It's like asking me for evidence that no people in Dublin have being eaten by Crocodiles, while insisting they have.

    I'm not asking you for anything
    I agreed with what you said and you asked me for a source


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    #98
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    L1011 wrote: »
    Call motorists "self-centred" without basis; then express an entirely selfish preference for a type of calming. Fantastic logic.

    Nothing selfish about it at all, and the reasoning is sound. Firstly, the purpose of traffic calming is to restrain motorised traffic. One reason for reducing the impact of motorised traffic is to make the roads safer for non-motorised modes of travel, such as cycling and walking. Logically, therefore, the objective of traffic calming measures should be to slow down motor vehicles while not impeding cyclists and pedestrians.

    Secondly, certain types of "traffic calming" which can adversely affect cyclists (road narrowings, build-outs, pinch-points, gateway treatments) are not favoured in national policy, specifically the National Cycle Policy Framework. With a bit of thought traffic calming features can be designed to slow down motor vehicles while not creating obstacles or hazards for cyclists.

    Simple in concept, really, as well as rational and coherent in policy terms.
    L1011 wrote: »
    I await a page of likely contradictory URLs, with no explanation of them; a few veiled insults and attempts to deflect from the topic and then some posts that make absolutely no sense at all, potentially quoting from an 18th/19th century satarist or at least trying to appear like one but possibly just incoherent.

    "Contradictory URLS"? Do you mean links to sources contradicting your claims? No need for that any more, I'd say.

    What's a "satarist"? A cross between a guitarist and a Satanist perhaps? :)


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    #99
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Attacking spelling rather than content isn't particularly useful.

    A report that carries a health warning about self-selection and an arguably dubious set of aims isn't much use either - but it doesn't particularly agree with what you think it does (as per usual) in the first place. Horizontal deflections can be bypassed for cyclists quite easily but it details that they don't need to be narrow enough to cause any issues for cyclists in the first place, even if they do still cause motorists to slow down for psychological reasons - which, you may note, was what was being discussed here.

    Did you actually read that, or find it by searching and bang the link in thinking it supported you? Would fail a first year college course for using that as a reference like you did.

    My phone has made an absolute hash of the formatting here since I opened the PDF in the same browser, before you go over my post trying to find another spelling or grammatical error to points-score on.


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    #100
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    gaz wac wrote: »
    There must be about 20-30 kids out on our green/roads, which is great to see, but we have had about 2/3 near misses, just kids running to get the ball etc scary stuff......the signs are a waste of time and money !!!

    My parents drilled me and my siblings on road safety when we were young. We were not allowed to play on the roads in the estate at all, it had to be in the green areas. We were given a lash of the wooden spoon if we were caught playing football on the road - it was dangerous and there was no need for us to be there. There were no accidents or near misses (big estate with lots of kids) throughout my childhood.

    Fast forward 20 years and the green areas in the same estate are empty while kids play out on the road!! As a result, the residents association lobbied the council to litter the estate with speed bumps, the council obliged. I can easily see there being an accident even with the speed ramps - kids are constantly playing out on the road and frequently dart in and out from behind parked cars.

    I do not understand the minset of these parents letting their kids play on the road (when there are multiple large green areas in the estate) and then demanding speed ramps. It is irresponsible and selfish in my opinion.


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    #101
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    Speed ramps/bumps don't bother me as a cyclist. Horizontal deflections -- eg build-outs, road narrowings etc -- are worse, because they make cyclists the meat in the traffic calming sandwich. Ireland is full of such horrors, especially along main roads through villages. I never came across anything of that sort in the Netherlands.

    These are pretty awful
    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.322211,-6.32145,3a,75y,211.78h,65.74t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sBrr82FWPFHadUzrZa9_89g!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.376708,-6.269581,3a,75y,19.26h,86.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srhSJmFrCqRzcPsBvYmoXnQ!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.37861,-6.32638,3a,75y,282.85h,38.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sTS2X0JP9_3bvZAtSbPzT9w!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52132,-6.106953,3a,75y,68.87h,91.47t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sH5yLkQY5xDWh1EiZDj84Cg!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52413,-6.166353,3a,75y,29.53h,70.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdxpX7qPOJG173jaJLklPvg!2e0?hl=en


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    #102
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    L1011 wrote: »
    Attacking spelling rather than content isn't particularly useful.

    And this is? >>
    L1011 wrote: »
    I await a page of likely contradictory URLs, with no explanation of them; a few veiled insults and attempts to deflect from the topic and then some posts that make absolutely no sense at all, potentially quoting from an 18th/19th century satarist or at least trying to appear like one but possibly just incoherent.
    L1011 wrote: »
    Did you actually read that, or find it by searching and bang the link in thinking it supported you? Would fail a first year college course for using that as a reference like you did.


    L1011 wrote: »
    Horizontal deflections can be bypassed for cyclists quite easily but it details that they don't need to be narrow enough to cause any issues for cyclists in the first place, even if they do still cause motorists to slow down for psychological reasons - which, you may note, was what was being discussed here.

    What I said clearly earlier was: "With a bit of thought traffic calming features can be designed to slow down motor vehicles while not creating obstacles or hazards for cyclists."

    In Ireland and the UK, roads engineers appear not to know or care about such details, which is why cycle-hostile road narrowings/pinch points can be seen just about everywhere.

    Here are some examples from the UK, found more or less at random:

    http://lcc.org.uk/discussions/council-engineers-admit-to-using-cyclists-as-traffic-calming-through-pinch-points

    https://samsaundersbristol.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/considerate-cycling-35-bristol-cycling-campaigns-stop-pinching-our-bikes/

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaigning/views-and-briefings/traffic-calming

    http://twowheelsgood-fourwheelsbad.blogspot.ie/2015/04/why-pinch-points-are-awful-for-cycling.html

    http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/pinch-points-are-dangerous-and-suppress.html

    Regular utility cyclists know well the downfalls of badly-designed horizontal deflections (and now that I think of it, maybe British/Irish roundabouts are among the worst examples of same). People who don't commute regularly by bike, a group which includes the majority of Irish road users and apparently also most Irish road engineers, are in contrast generally clueless about such matters. Which is why we are where we are.

    .


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    #103
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And another page of links.

    Focusing on some poorly designed horizontal deflections as a distraction from the inherent problems with all ramps doesn't fool people. Admitting a selfish preference does however tell people lots


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    #104
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    In Ireland ... , roads engineers appear not to know or care about such details, which is why cycle-hostile road narrowings/pinch points can be seen just about everywhere.
    Why not put up some links of examples in Ireland, since they can be seen just about everywhere?

    I notice nothing mentioned about the speedramps I posted.


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    #105
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    L1011 wrote: »
    And another page of links.

    It's the internet's fault.


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    #106
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Why not put up some links of examples in Ireland, since they can be seen just about everywhere?

    I notice nothing mentioned about the speedramps I posted.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056535574


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    #107
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    These are pretty awful
    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.322211,-6.32145,3a,75y,211.78h,65.74t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sBrr82FWPFHadUzrZa9_89g!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.376708,-6.269581,3a,75y,19.26h,86.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srhSJmFrCqRzcPsBvYmoXnQ!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.37861,-6.32638,3a,75y,282.85h,38.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sTS2X0JP9_3bvZAtSbPzT9w!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52132,-6.106953,3a,75y,68.87h,91.47t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sH5yLkQY5xDWh1EiZDj84Cg!2e0?hl=en

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52413,-6.166353,3a,75y,29.53h,70.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdxpX7qPOJG173jaJLklPvg!2e0?hl=en

    Nice links. ;)

    What are the problems you see with those ramps?

    Ugly for sure. One looks like a half-finished building site. Road maintenance is definitely an issue there.


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    #108
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.32221..._89g!2e0?hl=en
    Its like hitting a pothole, you need to brace the handle bars to avoid being thrown off balance. Its unncessary, Why do you need to slow cyclists down?

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.37670...oXnQ!2e0?hl=en
    Again unnecessary to slow cyclists down as it's uphill. It also has a pothole, caused by the crap construction of the ramp.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.37861...zT9w!2e0?hl=en
    The ramp covers the width of the road slowing cyclists down unnecessarily.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52132...84Cg!2e0?hl=en
    The surface is hazardous, because of the poor construction of the ramp.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.52413...lPvg!2e0?hl=en
    This is poorly drained, and floods where the red car is in rain.


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    #109
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    I had a quick glace a link 4. Drains each side of the ramp that forces the cyclist to move out on approach to the ramp


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    #110
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Rumble strips the full width of the lane. Bumpy, though not intolerably so. Still, and example of where no thought was given to cyclists.

    This is not rocket science, as the cliche goes.

    Engineers ought to be able to devise traffic calming measures that address the actual problem while avoiding the creation of new problems.


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    #111
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It's the internet's fault.

    And another post that makes no sense. The absolute

    There's almost a precise cyclic pattern at this stage


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    #112
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    L1011 wrote: »
    And another post that makes no sense. The absolute

    There's almost a precise cyclic pattern at this stage

    There is something in what you say.

    The internet (specifically the Web) is built on hyperlinks. If you object to links on a web forum you may as well object to pages in a book while you're at it.


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    #113
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The internet is built on hyperlinks. If you object to links on a web forum you may as well object to pages in a book while you're at it.

    I object to post that consist of little more than a list of links, often irrelevant, sometimes contradictory of each other and sometimes contradictory of what they're being pasted to try support.

    If you can't make your own argument, linking to other peoples doesn't help.


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    #114
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    L1011 wrote: »
    I object to post that consist of little more than a list of links, often irrelevant, sometimes contradictory of each other and sometimes contradictory of what they're being pasted to try support.

    If you can't make your own argument, linking to other peoples doesn't help.

    It was in response to your erroneous claims:
    L1011 wrote: »
    Attacking spelling rather than content isn't particularly useful.

    A report that carries a health warning about self-selection and an arguably dubious set of aims isn't much use either - but it doesn't particularly agree with what you think it does (as per usual) in the first place. Horizontal deflections can be bypassed for cyclists quite easily but it details that they don't need to be narrow enough to cause any issues for cyclists in the first place, even if they do still cause motorists to slow down for psychological reasons - which, you may note, was what was being discussed here.

    Did you actually read that, or find it by searching and bang the link in thinking it supported you? Would fail a first year college course for using that as a reference like you did.

    My phone has made an absolute hash of the formatting here since I opened the PDF in the same browser, before you go over my post trying to find another spelling or grammatical error to points-score on.

    The fundamental point at issue, in this particular instance, is that horizontal deflection can be bad for cyclists, if not done properly.

    The links are to local examples of cycle-hostile pinch points in the UK, identified by cycling groups, among them the CTC.

    It really is of no consequence to me that you don't seem to appreciate the point being made by the CTC, among others.


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    #115
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm failing to see where any of this can got to do with legality of putting speed ramps in Private housing estates, which was the OP original question.

    Closing the thread. As for posting copious links to external sites, at best this is bad netiquette, you should be able to argue the point with relevant block quotes (with reference to source link), just throwing a URL into a post isn't gonna cut it.


This discussion has been closed.
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