Iarnród Éireann plan to run their trains "flat out" to compete with road traffic

Run_to_da_hills · 13-11-2012 1:09pm #1

Rail journeys to shorten as Iarnrod Eireann plan to increase train speed to 160 KPH.

According to Wikipedia the maximum speed of the 201 Class and 22000 Rotem DMU sets respectively is 160KMH. Will this have any effect on the trains with regards to extra maintenance and fuel consumption? Apart from certain stretches along the Cork line I couldn't see this speed limit being maintained for too long with much of the track layout around the country dating back to Victorian times.

Journey times by rail between Dublin and the main towns and cities will drop by up to 20 minutes early in the new year.

This is because Iarnrod Eireann is increasing the speed limit on sections of the network as part of efforts to get people out of their cars and on to public transport.

Services from Dublin to Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick, Westport and Kerry will benefit, with drops of up to 20 minutes on some trains.

The improvements will allow trains to travel at up to 160kmh – 40kmh faster than motorways.

Dublin to Cork, which currently takes between two hours 40 minutes and three hours five minutes, will fall to two hours 30 minutes to two hours 45 minutes – a maximum reduction of 20 minutes.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rail-journeys-to-shorten-now-speedlimit-shackles-are-off-3291881.html

OurLadyofKnock · 13-11-2012 1:12pm

Don't beleive them. New boss making a big PR splash. Let's see what the speeds are like by summer 2013. I predict this will be a short-term marketing stunt.

This is because Iarnrod Eireann is increasing the speed limit on sections of the network as part of efforts to get people out of their cars and on to public transport.

"real railway man" Dick Fearn had a decade to do this. Thanks to previous faux promises the IC network is effectively dead. They are shifting deck chairs on the Titanic at this point. Reminds me of the recent story of HMV off-setting their declining sales by introducing a dress code for staff.

It's over. The express inter-city bus/coach won by default. Because the other side never paid attention to the bell and just sat in the corner of the ring while the bus/coach was awarded victory by default.

dowlingm · 13-11-2012 2:36pm

Track wear will likely increase because of the hammering the 201 gives, but that will be helped in part by the heavier grade track being laid in the midlands at present. Fuel issue is harder to call - trains use most fuel while accelerating and diesel trains in the main have no ability to store braking energy (except the few fitted with flywheels etc.). So while more 100mph running will use more fuel, how much of this will be avoided by reducing stops and braking for speed restrictions is something that will only be seen when the trains are rescheduled, although the test trains will have given them some idea.

robd · 13-11-2012 2:41pm

Still slower than driving. So they'll only be doing 160 kph on short sections.

To compete they'd need to be doing 160 kph minimum, excluding stops, and peaking at 200 kph.

However, they messed up. They bought the wrong rolling stock, so won't be able to reach 200 kph until they buy new stock. 40 years is the life of a train. Long wait.

Stark · 13-11-2012 2:44pm

Dublin to Cork, which currently takes between two hours 40 minutes and three hours five minutes, will fall to two hours 30 minutes to two hours 45 minutes – a maximum reduction of 20 minutes.

They've had journey times between 2:30 and 2:45 for the past year. Nothing new here.

Run_to_da_hills · 13-11-2012 2:47pm

robd wrote: »

Still slower than driving. So they'll only be doing 160 kph on short sections.

To compete they'd need to be doing 160 kph minimum, excluding stops, and peaking at 200 kph.

However, they messed up. They bought the wrong rolling stock, so won't be able to reach 200 kph until they buy new stock. 40 years is the life of a train. Long wait.

Not if they replace the current stock at 20 years and leave them in sidings. :pac:

Losty Dublin · 13-11-2012 2:55pm

Fuel use may actually be less for 201 class locos. Those sections of track with enhanced speed limits will only require slightly higher engine output over what is currently used in service along with less acceleration. As this is getting trains to destinations quicker, the engines will be in service for shorter periods of time whilst idling at Termimals for longer.

In the case of the 22000s, it will increase though by how much will vary from route to route. Their engines have two gear output settings so there will be times when more revs are needed at some lower speeds that at higher speeds. A slightly windier line like Rosslare or Mayo may see a moderate rise; a straighter one such as Cork or Galway will use somewhat more given their faster layouts.

bk · 13-11-2012 3:04pm

Dropping down to 2h 30min on the Cork route is certainly nothing special.

They already have one train per day (the 5pm) doing 2h 30min, I assume they plan on making most/all do this time.

However that still doesn't make it very competitive with the direct coach services. Once you add the extra 20 minutes to get to and from Hueston, you are only looking at 10 minutes faster then by coach.

I think I'll continue to take a 4 times cheaper ticket for the sake of an extra 10 minutes!!

A step in the right direction, but far too little, too late.

Grandeeod · 13-11-2012 3:59pm

Cork route 2hrs 30mins? They were talking about that in the 1970s! Its still a very poor IC network. Completely outdated for a supposedly modern European nation.

Bogjumper · 13-11-2012 5:13pm

Too much time wasted at stops and too many stops as you get closer to Dublin.

dowlingm · 13-11-2012 6:00pm

When you reduce block times Dublin-Cork, depending on where the reduction takes place this will have a cascade effect onto other routes. The discussion on this forum is often fixated on the competition from Aircoach/Gobe but a speed increase between say Portlaoise and Thurles benefits three routes (Limerick, Tralee, Cork).

If anything, increases in speed on the mainline between Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction would cause the current 0505 ex Limerick via Nenagh direct service to look even more a waste of time than currently if an accelerated 0620 Limerick-Limerick Junction-Dublin service reduces the existing headway between Ballybrophy departures below the current 14 minutes.

While 125mph motive power for the Mark 4 fleet would be nice-to-have, the projects IE are carrying out right now - elimination of accommodation crossings and upgrading of rails and points - would have to be done either way and are allowing the company to get more out of the equipment they did buy. Unless IE and Rotem found a way to push 22000s beyond design maximum with better brakes and higher output powerpacks it's likely having 125mph trains coming screaming in behind them would just cause pathing issues anyway unless very expensive four-tracking was done to accommodate stopping/express service.

Jamie2k9 · 13-11-2012 9:51pm

0505 ex Limerick via Nenagh direct service to look even more a waste of time than currentl

we want that to happen so it will be scrapped and not kept at the expense of other lightly loaded services which would bring in more revenue.

I don't think 125 running would be allowed on any line apart from Cork as most have lighter tracks and with Galway only being cleared for 90 you have no hope of 125 without major investment. I would imagine they could come up with something to modify the 22000 if needed.

Too much time wasted at stops and too many stops as you get closer to Dublin.

Station staff have a lot to answer for this, unstaffed stations would be excellent IMO.

Chris_5339762 · 13-11-2012 10:26pm

Wont make a blind bit of difference on the Galway route as the train still frequently sits for 20 mins in Portarlington waiting for the train in the other direction to get off the extensive single track section.

foggy_lad · 14-11-2012 11:41am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wont make a blind bit of difference on the Galway route as the train still frequently sits for 20 mins in Portarlington waiting for the train in the other direction to get off the extensive single track section.

The Waterford train is the same often sitting for 10-20 minutes in Carlow or Kilkenny.

LXFlyer · 14-11-2012 11:59am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wont make a blind bit of difference on the Galway route as the train still frequently sits for 20 mins in Portarlington waiting for the train in the other direction to get off the extensive single track section.

Given that the first passing loop on the line west is barely 9 minutes away at Geashill, and loops continue at 8-10 minute intervals to Athlone (Tullamore, Clara and Clonnydonnin), I think you are using poetic licence.

Trains can be scheduled to wait at passing loops to allow some slack for the train in the opposite direction running late. In general this is only 6 minutes.

Carawaystick · 14-11-2012 12:59pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Trains can be scheduled to wait at passing loops to allow some slack for the train in the opposite direction running late. In general this is only 6 minutes.

Is that 6 mins some kind of average lateness? and if so what kind of average? mean, mode, median?

LXFlyer · 14-11-2012 2:13pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is that 6 mins some kind of average lateness? and if so what kind of average? mean, mode, median?

All I can tell you is that on single track lines, you obviously have to have trains passing one another at passing points.

One of those trains will have the waiting time at the passing point extended from the normal 2 minutes (if it is a station) to 6 to allow for both trains to arrive/depart at the loop, delays to either train and minimise knock on effects on other services along the rest of the line.

It's about delivering a reliable schedule so that if there is a delay at one crossing point, it has a minimum effect on other services throughout the day.

Jamie2k9 · 14-11-2012 3:12pm

As far as I know its 3 minute given to crossing in stations and loops is varied but as said one service will be longer stopped and another service will have a clear run. If both approching the loop at the same time then it would be way longer than 6 minutes stopped and both services would have delays. The real problem is services that a stopped for 10-15 minutes waiting for trains at loops or stations. 6 is acceptable but no longer.

Could somone also explain why in 2012 we still need station staff to wave trains off and this also causes crossing delays. The driver sticks his head out the window and there is nobody there but he has to wait for the station staff to come across and wave him off. We have trains with external CCTV which could also be used. There is no need for it and if people are still running for the train well tough luck ticket are not suposed to be sold 2 minutes before departure.

Losty Dublin · 14-11-2012 4:06pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Could somone also explain why in 2012 we still need station staff to wave trains off and this also causes crossing delays. The driver sticks his head out the window and there is nobody there but he has to wait for the station staff to come across and wave him off. We have trains with external CCTV which could also be used. There is no need for it and if people are still running for the train well tough luck ticket are not suposed to be sold 2 minutes before departure.

They are there to ensure that passengers get on and off the train safely. It is part of the duties of a train guard which a driver obviously can't do from the cab. When the platform staff see that the passengers have moved on or off and that train doors are clear they give the driver the signal that it's safe to close doors and to move off. Many stations manage without them but overall they make life easier for drivers and passengers if they are on hand.

bk · 14-11-2012 4:16pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They are there to ensure that passengers get on and off the train safely.

How is it tens of thousands of people manage to make it on and off the DART safely every day without a train guard?

Aren't most doors fully automatic and controlled by the driver in his cab today?

Seems like an unnecessary job from the past. Could it be eliminated thus reducing the number of staff needed at a station?

BTW I don't actually know, I'm just asking.

Grandeeod · 14-11-2012 4:30pm

bk wrote: »

How is it tens of thousands of people manage to make it on and off the DART safely every day without a train guard?

Aren't most doors fully automatic and controlled by the driver in his cab today?

Seems like an unnecessary job from the past. Could it be eliminated thus reducing the number of staff needed at a station?

BTW I don't actually know, I'm just asking.

I'd ask the same questions. If its manageable at unmanned stations, I really don't see the point anymore.

Losty Dublin · 14-11-2012 5:43pm

bk wrote: »

How is it tens of thousands of people manage to make it on and off the DART safely every day without a train guard?

Aren't most doors fully automatic and controlled by the driver in his cab today?

Seems like an unnecessary job from the past. Could it be eliminated thus reducing the number of staff needed at a station?

BTW I don't actually know, I'm just asking.

There are staff doing this at some DART stations; Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse spring to mind. It may just be that the busier stations stations that need them for H+S reasons.

The train doors are released and closed by the driver; passengers open them as required.

The doors are automatically released by the driver but passengers open them

bikeman1 · 14-11-2012 6:25pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There are staff doing this at some DART stations; Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse spring to mind. It may just be that the busier stations stations that need them for H+S reasons.

The train doors are released and closed by the driver; passengers open them as required.

The doors are automatically released by the driver but passengers open them

They don't need them at the smaller stations around the country. Yes the main city centre stations have them and rightly so as you need two pairs of eyes making sure nobody is still boarding. However they rarely bother at Connolly 6 and 7 these days, where there are non straight platforms and loads of pax.

I was on a Galway train recently and we were held at Portarlington awaiting the station dispatcher who was sending off a Dublin train. He delayed us a further 2/3 mins while we waited for him to cross and give us the green light.

What's the point in whizzing up and down at 100mph when you get to a station and have to wait for some guy with an old fashioned wave off with a green light or flag??

With the 22s running constantly at higher speeds I would imagine we will see further problems with reliability as they get flogged.

15 years ago you could turn up at Heuston and do Dublin - Cork in the evening in 2 hours 30 mins, while enjoying a full cooked breakfast or evening dinner. 15 years on and we have a new executive getting excited about bringing back something that was the norm years ago!

Well at least we have nice shiny new trains, instead of a high speed mainline.

Jamie2k9 · 14-11-2012 6:38pm

They are there to ensure that passengers get on and off the train safely. It is part of the duties of a train guard which a driver obviously can't do from the cab. When the platform staff see that the passengers have moved on or off and that train doors are clear they give the driver the signal that it's safe to close doors and to move off. Many stations manage without them but overall they make life easier for drivers and passengers if they are on hand.

I accept staff at main stations but in gerneral from seeing this I think the drivers get furistrated as they look out and it is clear that nobody is on the platform and as I say the driver has CCTV at each door of the train. As said above its a real problem when trains are crossing with one another. There is a delay of around 5 minutes becasue of this on a Waterford service most days as they are selling tickets for the other service before they decided to allow the other service depart. It is not needed and the cost savings IE would get from getting rid of most small stations would be massive. They would have to have TMV at all stations though. I have being on services that the driver has had the doors closed well before he gets the nod to depart.

flyingsnail · 14-11-2012 6:51pm

bk wrote: »

How is it tens of thousands of people manage to make it on and off the DART safely every day without a train guard?

As far as I know most if not all DART platforms have cctv monitors at then end of the platform allowing the driver to look back the length of the train even on curved platforms.

bk wrote: »

Aren't most doors fully automatic and controlled by the driver in his cab today?

All service trains with the, exception of the enterprise, have doors which are controlled from the driving cab.

bk wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary job from the past. Could it be eliminated thus reducing the number of staff needed at a station?

Be careful what you wish for. These staff members are usually the ones that are trained to set up temporary working procedures when things go wrong like a automatic level crossing or points failure. Having less of them around would mean increased delays when things go wrong, this gets worse further away from Dublin when the distance between stations increases.

LXFlyer · 14-11-2012 7:07pm

There are more redundancies planned and agreed to as part of the cost cutting plan - these may involve certain of these staff.

However, in many cases outside Dublin or major stations they are the sole station staff member on duty so then you end up with totally unstaffed stations, which I'm not sure is a good thing either.

Losty Dublin · 14-11-2012 7:40pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

They don't need them at the smaller stations around the country. Yes the main city centre stations have them and rightly so as you need two pairs of eyes making sure nobody is still boarding. However they rarely bother at Connolly 6 and 7 these days, where there are non straight platforms and loads of pax.

This is also done at most manned stations around the country.

bikeman1 wrote: »

I was on a Galway train recently and we were held at Portarlington awaiting the station dispatcher who was sending off a Dublin train. He delayed us a further 2/3 mins while we waited for him to cross and give us the green light.

At Portarlington, a train heading towards Dublin has to pass through the station in order for the points and signal for a west bound train to be cleared. There may have been a delay for RPU staff to change from train to train; they often change here to get from line to line. Not ideal but they have to change somewhere so a few delays will occur.

patrickbrophy18 · 14-11-2012 10:13pm

robd wrote: »

To compete they'd need to be doing 160 kph minimum, excluding stops, and peaking at 200 kph.

I completely agree with you here. Let's not forget the fact that two bus services GoBe and Aircoach are already competing with Irish Rail's flagship Intercity route (Dublin-Cork) on this one at half the price. In a few threads, I have read that both services operate coaches with on-board restroom facilities. Almost every time when I go to the Irish Rail website, there are reports of delays where bus transfers are a common solution. For their sake, I hope the rejigging of the railway signals is fool proof.

Back to the topic at hand, Intercity services abroad are significantly faster and even multiple times the speed of those on The Emerald Isle. For example, France has an incredible Intercity network. Furthermore, anytime an Intercity service departs, it is given priority over a service with more stops so that it can achieve the desired speeds. In order win back customers from other modes like the bus and the car, Irish Rail need to be operating their Intercity services at significantly faster speeds than proposed. Perhaps, twice the speed of an average Intercity bus journey would bring them more in line with their counterparts abroad. I still think that this is theoretically achievable.

However, over the years, my confidence in Irish Rail has severely diminished due to a lack of customer facing and steady fares increases. It is mind boggling that they still charge up to twice the price of a bus service going more or less the same direction. This is further exacerbated by the fact that they have either ceased services along certain routes or failed to fulfill the true potential of existing infrastructure. A perfect example of this is the Rosslare-Waterford Line. This together with the Waterford-Limerick Junction and the rest of the Western Rail Corridor has a huge amount of untapped potential. A possible unique selling point for this infrastructure alone is that it enables commuters to get to Waterford, Cork, Limerick or Galway without having to travel into Dublin. Essentially, it removes the need for v-shaped commutes which is incredibly inefficient time-wise. To cut a long story short, they have shot themselves in the foot.

AlekSmart · 14-11-2012 11:33pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There are more redundancies planned and agreed to as part of the cost cutting plan - these may involve certain of these staff.

However, in many cases outside Dublin or major stations they are the sole station staff member on duty so then you end up with totally unstaffed stations, which I'm not sure is a good thing either.

Well Lxf,it works well enough at Broombridge...;)

Hilly Bill · 14-11-2012 11:45pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

As far as I know its 3 minute given to crossing in stations and loops is varied but as said one service will be longer stopped and another service will have a clear run. If both approching the loop at the same time then it would be way longer than 6 minutes stopped and both services would have delays. The real problem is services that a stopped for 10-15 minutes waiting for trains at loops or stations. 6 is acceptable but no longer.

Could somone also explain why in 2012 we still need station staff to wave trains off and this also causes crossing delays. The driver sticks his head out the window and there is nobody there but he has to wait for the station staff to come across and wave him off. We have trains with external CCTV which could also be used. There is no need for it and if people are still running for the train well tough luck ticket are not suposed to be sold 2 minutes before departure.

There could be times when the ramp will be needed to help a wheelchair passenger on or off the trains and a station staff could wave a green flag as long as they want but the train wont move unless it has the signal ahead to go . They can sell a ticket at anytime they want but can close the departure gate 2 minutes before boarding.

Jamie2k9 · 15-11-2012 12:14am

There could be times when the ramp will be needed to help a wheelchair passenger on or off the trains and a station staff could wave a green flag as long as they want but the train wont move unless it has the signal ahead to go .

How do they handle wheelchair passengers in un staffed stations. I think it would be of more beneift to passenger if the majority of station staff were dropped and every train at a ticlet checker/host onboard. I only know detail about Waterford line as they always have green signals well before the flag goes and that includes when trains are crossing. All stations have much longer passing loops than most other lines because of large freight services so before another train actualy comes to a stop on the platform the waiting train will have the signal to proceed but it takes around 3 minutes average before the staff come accross the bridge to allow it go.

Iarnród Éireann plan to run their trains "flat out" to compete with road traffic

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