My Friend

Karty55 · 27-02-2014 6:54pm #1

I made a thread over a year ago now about a friend who had been saying some things that made me think he might potentially be gay. Things have changed a bit since then as he moved from just saying some things that seemed odd to doing things.

When we go out I can pretty much be sure he will be doing something gay around me in particular. He grabs my ass or crotch, has lifted me up against a wall and humped me would be the way to put it I suppose, grinded on me while dancing, kissed me on the nose followed by sucking on a button on my top, called me hotter than him and pushed me onto the grass and pinned me down on the way home from a night out among other instances. He manages to do just about all of these things without anyone else seeing like he has it down to an art.

I'm hoping to confront him the next time he does something similar as at this point I kind of need to know one way or the other. I have let it go on this long as I'm afraid he might just be messing with me and to be honest its about the only somewhat consistent male attention I really get so I suppose I don't really want to lose it.

Is this stuff a normal straight guy would do with a friend he knew was gay and I'm just over thinking all this or might there be something to it? Hopefully I will find out one way or the other soon enough anyway if I can get the courage to just ask him.

qweerty · 27-02-2014 7:23pm

Lol! Sounds like a total closet case! If he is, the fact that he's reluctant to even talk to you about it suggests that he's very uncomfortable. Therefore, I wouldn't force him at all. Instead, I'd try to emphasise that I thought he was straight, while simultaneously flirting - "I think it's so cool when a straight person kisses a gay guy...[chuckle]...I mean...would you ever kiss me." When I was younger, and straight, a guy started hitting on me in summer camp, and we ended up kissing a few times. He knew I thought I was straight, and if he had ever asked me if I was gay, I would have been really put-off, I think.

Ambersky · 27-02-2014 8:38pm

Kind of sounds like everyones gay/bi but not straight in these scenarios. Straight guys kissing gay guys, ah now! whos foolin who.

ongarboy · 27-02-2014 9:34pm

So he's allowed to hump and grind you against a wall or throw you to the ground and throw himself on top of you yet youre too reticent to question him as to why he does it? And your fear is if you do question, he may back off as you enjoy it?

However it sounds like the ambiguity is more frustrating. You need to decide what's more important, him calling all the shots or you being upfront and potentially upsetting the status quo. If the latter causes a fallout, I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing. Having someone play mind games with you (intentionally or not) is not good for you and you know it otherwise you wouldn't have posted here. It also may be the trigger for him to come clean. I recommend you challenge it next time it happens and if he reacts badly, I suggest a bit of distance so you can focus on healthier friendships and future relationships. Good luck!

ongarboy · 27-02-2014 9:37pm

So he's allowed to hump and grind you against a wall or throw you to the ground and throw himself on top of you yet youre too reticent to question him as to why he does it? And your fear is if you do question, he may back off as you enjoy it?

However it sounds like the ambiguity is more frustrating. You need to decide what's more important, him calling all the shots or you being upfront and potentially upsetting the status quo. If the latter causes a fallout, I don't see it as a necessarily bad thing. Having someone play mind games with you (intentionally or not) is not good for you and you know it otherwise you wouldn't have posted here. It also may be the trigger for him to come clean. I recommend you challenge it next time it happens and if he reacts badly, I suggest a bit of distance so you can focus on healthier friendships and future relationships. Good luck!

Ten of Swords · 27-02-2014 9:39pm

That's not normal behaviour for two gay friends let alone a straight (?) and gay friend :pac:

Based on what you've said I would guess that your friend is at least curious but possibly conflicted about it. I suppose the trick is figuring out if he's just trying to get a reaction out of you or if he may be acting out impulses in a playful way with someone he can trust. Is he a bit of a joker around other people? Have you ever caught him staring at you then suddenly looking away? You say he has this behaviour down to an art and nobody ever sees it, has anyone else you two know mentioned, even anecdotally, to you that he has done something like this with them?

He knows you're gay so he may feel that he can act this way around you and push boundaries he wouldn't be able to push with anyone else.

I get that you're shy OK but you'll have to ask him if you ever want to really know but to me it sounds like he's giving off some pretty clear signals and dropping hints. It's normal to worry that if you say something and it doesn't go the way you hoped that your friendship will be damaged but in my own experience I think that not knowing is actually worse in the long run and you've been questioning this for over a year now. Is he single at the moment?

Next time he does something I'd call him on it, don't try to embarrass him or get confrontational about it. Whatever he does next tell him if he keeps it up you're going to play along and act like you're enjoying it then see what he says/does! It'll get pretty obvious pretty fast and you won't have crossed any lines if he doesn't like the idea.

Karty55 · 27-02-2014 10:34pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

That's not normal behaviour for two gay friends let alone a straight (?) and gay friend :pac:

Based on what you've said I would guess that your friend is at least curious but possibly conflicted about it. I suppose the trick is figuring out if he's just trying to get a reaction out of you or if he may be acting out impulses in a playful way with someone he can trust. Is he a bit of a joker around other people? Have you ever caught him staring at you then suddenly looking away? You say he has this behaviour down to an art and nobody ever sees it, has anyone else you two know mentioned, even anecdotally, to you that he has done something like this with them?

He knows you're gay so he may feel that he can act this way around you and push boundaries he wouldn't be able to push with anyone else.

I get that you're shy OK but you'll have to ask him if you ever want to really know but to me it sounds like he's giving off some pretty clear signals and dropping hints. It's normal to worry that if you say something and it doesn't go the way you hoped that your friendship will be damaged but in my own experience I think that not knowing is actually worse in the long run and you've been questioning this for over a year now. Is he single at the moment?

Next time he does something I'd call him on it, don't try to embarrass him or get confrontational about it. Whatever he does next tell him if he keeps it up you're going to play along and act like you're enjoying it then see what he says/does! It'll get pretty obvious pretty fast and you won't have crossed any lines if he doesn't like the idea.

I have tried returning the favour. I have started grabbing his ass on occasion. Last time I did it he asked if I liked that to which I said yeah. About a minute later he just puts his hand on mine on the table in front of us and leaves it there a few seconds. He has been single for years as far as I know anyway.

J_E · 27-02-2014 10:46pm

Let him find his own way, nobody likes to be pressed or 'outed'. That behaviour is a bit odd though if you're not in a fling/relationship sort of direction.

If you are feeling bothered by it, simply say so. I wouldn't ask straight out "are you gay" though. For anyone closeted, that's the worst thing to ask them.

Rick_ · 27-02-2014 10:48pm

To me, this sounds like a classic case of someone closeted and testing the waters and he's letting his guard slip a bit more than normal when he has some drink in him. Do you really think sitting him down one day and having a frank conversation is gonna freak him out? If so, why not act a bit annoyed when he does these things to you and see what reaction you get then. It may force him to do something either way, and for you, either of them is the best thing that could happen to be honest. You're not helping him by just playing along and whatnot. Ask him, hint at him or something, but I personally wouldn't let this situation continue. It's not fair on either of you.

Dr. Shrike · 27-02-2014 10:56pm

Sounds like you sort of have an odd relationship with him, either way. Bear in mind there are some straight guys who love the attention flirting with gay guys gets them

Karty55 · 27-02-2014 11:11pm

Cydoniac wrote: »

Let him find his own way, nobody likes to be pressed or 'outed'. That behaviour is a bit odd though if you're not in a fling/relationship sort of direction.

If you are feeling bothered by it, simply say so. I wouldn't ask straight out "are you gay" though. For anyone closeted, that's the worst thing to ask them.

Wasn't planning on asking him point blank. Was hoping to just bring attention to him doing something like grabbing my ass or crotch the next time he does it and asking if there is a reason why he does these things. That gives him a chance to say he is just messing around. I know how difficult it can be to come out so I wouldn't be asking him bluntly if he was.

Annasopra · 28-02-2014 4:32am

Can I ask

How do you feel about all this? Do you think the touching is inappropriate? Do you want to continue the friendship? If he is flirting what does that mean? Would you consider a relationship?

Peregrinus · 28-02-2014 7:19am

mango salsa wrote: »

Can I ask

How do you feel about all this? Do you think the touching is inappropriate? Do you want to continue the friendship? If he is flirting what does that mean? Would you consider a relationship?

This.

I'm surprised nobody asked these questions until post #12.

Karty55, this guy is either pretending to flirt with you or is actually flirting with you. Assume for the moment that this is genuine romantic/sexual attention. Do you welcome this attention? Would you like to take matters further?

If so, you would rather this guy come out to you (even if not to anyone else) before things move on, because if you get sexual with someone who is closetted even to himself, the whole thing can turn toxic very quickly. He will feel deeply conflicted and unhappy about what he is doing, and he will blame you both for what he is doing and for what he is feeling. (Sure, that's irrational, but in this situation people frequently do not behave rationally.)

In short, before this goes further, you have to open up space for him to talk about what he is feeling, rather than simply act it out in what he deludes himself is a deniable way. Maybe he will take the opportunity to talk; maybe he won't. But if he doesn't, then on no account allow this relationship to get more physical; emotionally and in terms of maturity he is not ready for a physical relationship yet, and the likelihood is that either you or he or both will be hurt.

On the other hand, what if you would not welcome a romantic/sexual advance from this guy, even if he were to come out? You can discourage his flirting, obviously, in the same way that you discourage anyone else's, by indicating that it's not welcome and that it annoys you. But if, despite this, he does pluck up the courage to come out to you, in the context of making an unmistakeable pass at you, handle him gently, because he will have to deal with the emotions of coming out for the first time when it's obviously difficult for him, plus the emotions of being given the flick by the guy he fancies. Tell his clearly but gently that romance between you is not on, but also tell him how flattered you are by his interest in you, how you really value the trust he places in you by coming out to you, etc.

qweerty · 28-02-2014 9:11am

Peregrinus wrote: »

This.

I'm surprised nobody asked these questions until post #12.

Karty55, this guy is either pretending to flirt with you or is actually flirting with you. Assume for the moment that this is genuine romantic/sexual attention. Do you welcome this attention? Would you like to take matters further?

If so, you would rather this guy come out to you (even if not to anyone else) before things move on, because if you get sexual with someone who is closetted even to himself, the whole thing can turn toxic very quickly. He will feel deeply conflicted and unhappy about what he is doing, and he will blame you both for what he is doing and for what he is feeling. (Sure, that's irrational, but in this situation people frequently do not behave rationally.)

In short, before this goes further, you have to open up space for him to talk about what he is feeling, rather than simply act it out in what he deludes himself is a deniable way. Maybe he will take the opportunity to talk; maybe he won't. But if he doesn't, then on no account allow this relationship to get more physical; emotionally and in terms of maturity he is not ready for a physical relationship yet, and the likelihood is that either you or he or both will be hurt.

On the other hand, what if you would not welcome a romantic/sexual advance from this guy, even if he were to come out? You can discourage his flirting, obviously, in the same way that you discourage anyone else's, by indicating that it's not welcome and that it annoys you. But if, despite this, he does pluck up the courage to come out to you, in the context of making an unmistakeable pass at you, handle him gently, because he will have to deal with the emotions of coming out for the first time when it's obviously difficult for him, plus the emotions of being given the flick by the guy he fancies. Tell his clearly but gently that romance between you is not on, but also tell him how flattered you are by his interest in you, how you really value the trust he places in you by coming out to you, etc.

It seems evident that the OP would be receptive to advances. Unless done in a jovial way when drunk, I think confronting the guy would be disastrous.

Annasopra · 28-02-2014 10:34am

qweerty wrote: »

It seems evident that the OP would be receptive to advances. Unless done in a jovial way when drunk, I think confronting the guy would be disastrous.

I dont know if it is obvious. Thats why I asked.

No I think asking someone - "why are you doing that" is perfectly ok. Perhaps in a weird way it is meant in a joking/jovial way and theres nothing to it.

Peregrinus · 28-02-2014 10:40am

Karty55 wrote: »

. . . to be honest its about the only somewhat consistent male attention I really get so I suppose I don't really want to lose it.

Karty55 finds his friend's apparent interest in him gratifying. Who wouldn't? It shows Karty that he has what it takes to attract people, which is a healthy boost to self-esteem.

But that doesn't mean that Karty feels a reciprocal attraction to his friend. Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't.

Karty55 · 28-02-2014 3:37pm

I probably should have clarified this in my original post but yes I do like him and I would want something to come from it assuming he is actually gay/bi. If I didn't like him I most likely would have put a stop to what he has been doing as it would just be inappropriate and weird if I let him do these things without having any interest in him.

Karty55 · 08-04-2014 11:29pm

I finally confronted him a few weeks back but not in a are you gay or what kind of way. I just asked him why he does the stuff he tends to do around me. In his words he did it as a joke and because its winds me up. He then asked why I was asking and I just said that it wasn't really winding me up but that it could be misinterpreted. We haven't really spoken since then so I guess I made things awkward... But yeah that's that question answered. Apologies bringing up an old thread but I didn't think it was worth a new one.

Time Now Please · 09-04-2014 11:29pm

Is it possible that straight men fantasise about having sex with gay or bi guys??

Peregrinus · 10-04-2014 1:55am

Yes, of course it is. Grabbing somebody's crotch, humping, grinding and kissing is not really fantasizing, though, is it? More like actualizing.

Karty55 · 10-04-2014 6:24pm

He claims it was a joke so it was a joke I guess. No point going through the headache of thinking he just can't accept that he might be gay or bi or whatever. Wasted enough time thinking about him already.

Time Now Please · 11-04-2014 1:59am

Time Now Please wrote: »

Is it possible that straight men fantasise about having sex with gay or bi guys??

Yeah but, is it a normal practice for str8 guys to think like that, does it mean they are gay or bi???

Peregrinus · 11-04-2014 2:25am

Most people have fantasies that they would never act out in reality - not because they are too repressed/afraid, but because they have no wish to. That's why they are called "fantasies".

A straight person who has same-sex fantasies is no more gay than someone with BDSM fantasies is a rapist or a sadist. Your sexuality is primarily expressed in your relationships, not your fantasies.

J_E · 11-04-2014 3:39am

Peregrinus wrote: »

A straight person who has same-sex fantasies is no more gay than someone with BDSM fantasies is a rapist or a sadist. Your sexuality is primarily expressed in your relationships, not your fantasies.

lol, you made a rather rude insinuation there! Being kinky is about a million miles away from being a rapist (and in most cases sadist, depending on what group you're asking) of any kind

Peregrinus · 11-04-2014 3:56am

Fair point. I probably should that someone who has rape fantasies is not a rapist (or a masochist, if they fantasise about themselves as the victims of rape). In the same way someone who fantasises about same-sex encounters, but has no desire to realise those fantasies, is not gay, in the ordinary sense of that word.

floggg · 11-04-2014 12:56pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Your sexuality is primarily expressed in your relationships, not your fantasies.

Not really. A closet case who only dates girls is still gay at the end of the day - regardless of what they might tell themselves or others.

Peregrinus · 12-04-2014 12:06am

No. There is a distinction between somebody who had desires that he is too afraid or repressed to realise, and someone who has fantasies which he has no wish to realise.

the_syco · 20-04-2014 2:11am

Karty55 wrote: »

humped me would be the way to put it I suppose, grinded on me while dancing, kissed me on the nose followed by sucking on a button on my top

Next time he kisses you on the nose, tilt your head back and go in for the kill.

=-=

Are you openly gay in your work place? If not, he may have had an idea that you are gay, and flirted. If you are openly gay in the office, he probably thought it'd be "safe" to try it on with someone he knew.

Karty55 wrote: »

I finally confronted him a few weeks back but not in a are you gay or what kind of way. I just asked him why he does the stuff he tends to do around me. In his words he did it as a joke and because its winds me up.

Sounds like he wasn't ready to come out, and gave his standard "no-way-I'm-gay" answer.

Karty55 wrote: »

He then asked why I was asking

I see this as testing the water.

Karty55 wrote: »

We haven't really spoken since then so I guess I made things awkward...

Could be because you in said no. If man asks female work colleague out on a date, but gets denied, I'd say a similar awkwardness would happen.

Integr8 · 21-04-2014 9:45am

It sounds like you have started to fall for him and his actions have driven this. You're in dangerous territory. It's best to confront it instead of letting the ambiguity make you fall deeper - I'm speaking from experience and it was tough to shake the thought of him (I still haven't).

Nor do I understand why he did the whole flirtation thing in the first place. He denied that he did those actions with intent and said "sometimes people just want to see what they want out of things". Strange.

I had to back away and keep my distance because of it, although he wanted to have me around as a close friend.

I think a frank and light discussion about his actions/'flirtation' over a pint would do the trick.

Hopefully your experience has a more desirable outcome than mine.

Karty55 · 26-04-2014 12:14am

the_syco wrote: »

Next time he kisses you on the nose, tilt your head back and go in for the kill.

=-=

Are you openly gay in your work place? If not, he may have had an idea that you are gay, and flirted. If you are openly gay in the office, he probably thought it'd be "safe" to try it on with someone he knew.

Sounds like he wasn't ready to come out, and gave his standard "no-way-I'm-gay" answer.

I see this as testing the water.

Could be because you in said no. If man asks female work colleague out on a date, but gets denied, I'd say a similar awkwardness would happen.

I'm in college not working. He is a friend from when I was younger when I came out I told everyone including him. He knew I was gay. Where did I say I said no to him? I asked him why he did all the stuff he did around me. He said he was just joking and he thought it winded me up so that is why he did it. He was messing with me apparently and then asked why I was asking. I just said that the stuff he does doesn't really wind me up but could be misinterpreted. At that point he said he was just joking but wouldn't be joking any more.

Integr8 wrote: »

It sounds like you have started to fall for him and his actions have driven this. You're in dangerous territory. It's best to confront it instead of letting the ambiguity make you fall deeper - I'm speaking from experience and it was tough to shake the thought of him (I still haven't).

Nor do I understand why he did the whole flirtation thing in the first place. He denied that he did those actions with intent and said "sometimes people just want to see what they want out of things". Strange.

I had to back away and keep my distance because of it, although he wanted to have me around as a close friend.

I think a frank and light discussion about his actions/'flirtation' over a pint would do the trick.

Hopefully your experience has a more desirable outcome than mine.

I already did confront him as mentioned above.

My Friend

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