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cost as assigned certifier

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    #62
    PeteHeat
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭PeteHeat


    JPW81 wrote: »
    Do you really believe this?

    Surely we will not know until the amended act lands a certifier in court and when/if that does happen is that not the reason that PI Insurance is purchased?

    I know I'm out of my depth where this thread is concerned so thank you for putting up with me.

    As I understand it any claim under my insurance will be met by the insurer however, if they believe I have not performed as could reasonably be expected from a person having proved competency (taking shortcuts) they will try to recover their loss from me.

    A bit like a motor accident, a third party claims against you they get paid, your insurer discovers you were texting or over the limit they can follow you (the insured) to cover their loss because you were negligent while driving.

    Insurance is not the protection it first appears to be anymore.


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    #63
    JPW81
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭JPW81


    PeteHeat wrote: »
    I know I'm out of my depth where this thread is concerned so thank you for putting up with me.

    As I understand it any claim under my insurance will be met by the insurer however, if they believe I have not performed as could reasonably be expected from a person having proved competency (taking shortcuts) they will try to recover their loss from me.

    A bit like a motor accident, a third party claims against you they get paid, your insurer discovers you were texting or over the limit they can follow you (the insured) to cover their loss because you were negligent while driving.

    Insurance is not the protection it first appears to be anymore.

    I could not agree with you more and this is why people are crying out for guidance on what is expected of the Design Certifier and the Assigned Certifier in their roles under the new Regs.

    If we had definitive guidance then we could satisfy ourselves that by following the guidance we had "performed as could reasonably be expected from a person having proved competency".

    This guidance should come from the top (The Minister or The Department of EC&LG). Failing this it should come from Local Authorities or representative bodies (RIAI & IEI).


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    #64
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    A considered view here
    .0 SUMMARY OF ADDITIONAL INPUTS NECESSARY TO COMPLY WITH S.I. 9/2014

    Inputs necessary up to and including submission of Commencement Notice: 6 days
    Inputs necessary during construction period as set out above: 13 days
    Inputs necessary to prepare and upload Compliance on Completion Certificate: 1 day
    TOTAL ADDITIONAL DAYS REQUIRED: 20 day

    So €8k at €50/hr.

    Much more than clients will pay.

    Much less than what certifiers should charge to cover the risk.

    This law won't work i.e. it won't effect the change the minister has stated that it will.


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    #65
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    4Sticks wrote: »
    A considered view here



    So €8k at €50/hr.

    Much more than clients will pay.

    Much less than what certifiers should charge to cover the risk.

    This law won't work i.e. it won't effect the change the minister has stated that it will.


    So, to refresh: I think we all agree, even loosely that
    a) cost to build to client will increase
    b) cost as indicated by the Minister is fiction
    c) whilst SI9 is the subject of so much discussion and confusion there is going to be a period of limbo

    I would ask then: what is the industry on the ground going to do while all this is in the air ?
    I mean, every day that passes is another of wages and work that has to be found: if SI9 stall things generally, then what....... ?

    Or will SI9 be met in spirit only, and we'll all just carry on as-is........ ??

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Options
    #66
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Another perspective here


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    #67
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Well my acquaintance RIAI is quoting 140 extra man hours for "admin" time.....

    Nonsence


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    #68
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Thanks for clearing that up.


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    #69
    Leena_Wilson
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Leena_Wilson


    Assigned certifiers cover all aspects of the Building Regulations. Parts B and M are already covered by Local Authorities (Fire Certs and DAC's). A fire Cert application will cost a minimum of €125 to a max of €12,500 with most calculated at the €2.60/sq.m rate. A DAC will cost you €800 flat rate. Given the fact the LA receives these applications to their desks and don't have to call to site or deal with contractors or take on liability and given the fact there are at least 12 parts to the Regs, is it not fair to pay the same pro-rata rates to the assigned certifiers? i.e. 12 x the rate the LA charge say between €1,500 to €150,000. I mean why should the Public Sector get paid more than the Private Sector?

    OR

    Get the contractor to Certify the work. After all he built it!

    OR

    Abolish this ridiculous and unworkable law.


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    #70
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Leena_Wilson wrote: »
    Assigned certifiers cover all aspects of the Building Regulations. Parts B and M are already covered by Local Authorities (Fire Certs and DAC's). A fire Cert application will cost a minimum of €125 to a max of €12,500 with most calculated at the €2.60/sq.m rate. A DAC will cost you €800 flat rate. Given the fact the LA receives these applications to their desks and don't have to call to site or deal with contractors or take on liability and given the fact there are at least 12 parts to the Regs, is it not fair to pay the same pro-rata rates to the assigned certifiers? i.e. 12 x the rate the LA charge say between €1,500 to €150,000. I mean why should the Public Sector get paid more than the Private Sector?

    OR

    Get the contractor to Certify the work. After all he built it!

    OR

    Abolish this ridiculous and unworkable law.

    Your logic is flawed.
    The local authorities only grant the fire cert and dac based on the design in front of them. Somebody has to supervise the construction to ensure its built in accordance with the grants. That's where your AC comes in.


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    #71
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,256 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Leena_Wilson wrote: »
    Assigned certifiers cover all aspects of the Building Regulations. Parts B and M are already covered by Local Authorities (Fire Certs and DAC's). A fire Cert application will cost a minimum of €125 to a max of €12,500 with most calculated at the €2.60/sq.m rate. A DAC will cost you €800 flat rate. Given the fact the LA receives these applications to their desks and don't have to call to site or deal with contractors or take on liability and given the fact there are at least 12 parts to the Regs, is it not fair to pay the same pro-rata rates to the assigned certifiers? i.e. 12 x the rate the LA charge say between €1,500 to €150,000. I mean why should the Public Sector get paid more than the Private Sector?

    OR

    Get the contractor to Certify the work. After all he built it!

    OR

    Abolish this ridiculous and unworkable law.

    As kceire said, the Local Authority approves the design only. The Assigned Certifier monitors the on-going construction and certifies that the works have been carried out to specification and are in accordance with the regulations. Their roles are not in any way interchangeable.


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    #72
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    kceire wrote: »
    Somebody has to supervise the construction to ensure its built in accordance with the grants. That's where your AC comes in.

    And where your BCO stays well away from.
    They like the paper world only.
    Not actual buildings.


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    #73
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,055 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i think both sides here are being screwed

    the Local authority side are simply nowhere near supported enough to have a system comparable to the UK, but similarly the private AC's are not supported statutorily and therefore he whos pays the piper calls the tune.

    its almost a mantra now but it still stands:
    "those with the power to enforce the building regulations have none of the responsibility to do so, while those with all the responsibility to enforce the building regulations have none of the power to do so"

    i heard last week of my local authority BCO visiting a site at foundation level, under BCARS.
    This is the first time in my 21 years working in this county that ive ever even heard of a LA BCO visiting a domestic one off build, never mind seen it. Im deadly serious.

    Leena_wilson above also points to a huge problem in our country, one which is an elephant in the room and one which politicians wont touch with a barge pole.
    We do not have a building industry in which builders are required to be professional indemnified.... mainly because there is no such thing as a "qualified professional" builder. There is not educational route, no QQI status.
    Therefore we are left with a situation where a designer can certify their design.... but must also certify a builders build. The builder cannot be considered professional and educationally competent to certify their own build, even though their they ones with the intimate knowledge of how its constructed.

    until that farcical situation is solved, we will always have this problem.


  • Options
    #74
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the Local authority side are simply nowhere near supported enough to have a system comparable to the UK

    Remember how they lobbied so hard during the SI 9 2014 consultatation phase to change this ?
    No?
    Neither do I.
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i heard last week of my local authority BCO visiting a site at foundation level, under BCARS. This is the first time in my 21 years working in this county that ive ever even heard of a LA BCO visiting a domestic one off build, never mind seen it. Im deadly serious.

    In 20 years never heard of it either in Ireland.
    10 years in UK - visits to all projects large and small was routine.
    BCO's also offerd pre Building Regulations Compliance Application pre lodgement consultataion meetings. And made themselves available to take calls over matters of technical interpretation.

    A public service in other words by public servants unlike whatever out lot are.
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Leena_wilson above also points to a huge problem in our country, one which is an elephant in the room and one which politicians wont touch with a barge pole.
    We do not have a building industry in which builders are required to be professional indemnified.... mainly because there is no such thing as a "qualified professional" builder. There is not educational route, no QQI status.
    Therefore we are left with a situation where a designer can certify their design.... but must also certify a builders build. The builder cannot be considered professional and educationally competent to certify their own build, even though their they ones with the intimate knowledge of how its constructed.

    until that farcical situation is solved, we will always have this problem.

    Again my UK experience is that rogue builders exist but they are caused real pain by active BCO's.
    not a Utopia but the overall impact is a general rasing of standards.

    .


  • Options
    #75
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Bad Horse wrote: »
    As kceire said, the Local Authority approves the design only. The Assigned Certifier monitors the on-going construction and certifies that the works have been carried out to specification and are in accordance with the regulations. Their roles are not in any way interchangeable.

    Does not have to be that way....


  • Options
    #76
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    And where your BCO stays well away from.
    They like the paper world only.
    Not actual buildings.

    Not in Dublin.

    BCO's in Dublin don't assess DAC's or fire certs.
    Might be different in your country.


  • Options
    #77
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i think both sides here are being screwed

    the Local authority side are simply nowhere near supported enough to have a system comparable to the UK, but similarly the private AC's are not supported statutorily and therefore he whos pays the piper calls the tune.

    its almost a mantra now but it still stands:
    "those with the power to enforce the building regulations have none of the responsibility to do so, while those with all the responsibility to enforce the building regulations have none of the power to do so"

    i heard last week of my local authority BCO visiting a site at foundation level, under BCARS.
    This is the first time in my 21 years working in this county that ive ever even heard of a LA BCO visiting a domestic one off build, never mind seen it. Im deadly serious.

    Leena_wilson above also points to a huge problem in our country, one which is an elephant in the room and one which politicians wont touch with a barge pole.
    We do not have a building industry in which builders are required to be professional indemnified.... mainly because there is no such thing as a "qualified professional" builder. There is not educational route, no QQI status.
    Therefore we are left with a situation where a designer can certify their design.... but must also certify a builders build. The builder cannot be considered professional and educationally competent to certify their own build, even though their they ones with the intimate knowledge of how its constructed.

    until that farcical situation is solved, we will always have this problem.
    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Remember how they lobbied so hard during the SI 9 2014 consultatation phase to change this ?
    No?
    Neither do I.



    In 20 years never heard of it either in Ireland.
    10 years in UK - visits to all projects large and small was routine.
    BCO's also offerd pre Building Regulations Compliance Application pre lodgement consultataion meetings. And made themselves available to take calls over matters of technical interpretation.

    A public service in other words by public servants unlike whatever out lot are.



    Again my UK experience is that rogue builders exist but they are caused real pain by active BCO's.
    not a Utopia but the overall impact is a general rasing of standards.

    .

    Guys, you need to take on a project in Dublin.
    We will be there at every stage of the build.

    Currently we are actively inspecting over 40% of CN's lodged.

    Only last week I had to stop a housing estate of 3 storey houses because of my concerns over escape route shaft penetrations by ducts (HRV's), plumbing and wiring.

    I could list many many projects where we have forced developers to upgrade, change or omit certain details on sites, but you won't read about them in any papers.


  • Options
    #78
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    As part of the commencement a site inspection plan is submitted detailing the proposed site visits and what stages of the construction the site visits will take place. if the site inspection plan is too flimsy or vague it will be rejected. At the completion stage and final certification you must submit your site inspection records with the dates the site was attended detailing what the purpose of the site viist was and what regulations were the focus of for the site visit. If it is too flimsy it will be rejected.


  • Options
    #79
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RORY O CONNOR wrote: »
    As part of the commencement a site inspection plan is submitted detailing the proposed site visits and what stages of the construction the site visits will take place. if the site inspection plan is too flimsy or vague it will be rejected. At the completion stage and final certification you must submit your site inspection records with the dates the site was attended detailing what the purpose of the site viist was and what regulations were the focus of for the site visit. If it is too flimsy it will be rejected.

    I personally don't pay too much attention to the plan that's lodged at commencement stage tbh. If it's flimsy it's he AC's mistake, it is only a preliminary plan after all.

    We inspect at our intervals so as to try not be expected or predictive.
    The fink plan lodged with the completion cert is checked though.


  • Options
    #80
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    kceire wrote: »
    I personally don't pay too much attention to the plan that's lodged at commencement stage tbh. If it's flimsy it's he AC's mistake, it is only a preliminary plan after all.

    We inspect at our intervals so as to try not be expected or predictive.
    The fink plan lodged with the completion cert is checked though.
    Can you spell out the requirements (in drawing type) of AD & AC ? Loaded question?


  • Options
    #81
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BryanF wrote: »
    Can you spell out the requirements (in drawing type) of AD & AC ? Loaded question?

    Depends on the job Bryan.
    I like to see structural drawings with foundation plans, radon sump detail, barrier detail and arch details showing insulation/membrane detail along with a provisional BER.

    This doesn't happen in reality, but they will be requested early on in a job, along with certificates for the hardcore and technical data sheets for the sump and barrier.

    Then the requested will continue depending on the job.

    It must also be noted that by the time a site is selected for inspection, the CN is already validated and accepted and any outstanding info can be requested from the AC. the BCO does not go through the BCMS lodgement and confirm its validation.


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    #82
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    kceire wrote: »
    Depends on the job Bryan.
    I like to see structural drawings with foundation plans, radon sump detail, barrier detail and arch details showing insulation/membrane detail along with a provisional BER.

    This doesn't happen in reality, but they will be requested early on in a job, along with certificates for the hardcore and technical data sheets for the sump and barrier.

    Then the requested will continue depending on the job.

    That's just the jobs you are selecting for inspection?
    kceire wrote: »
    It must also be noted that by the time a site is selected for inspection, the CN is already validated and accepted and any outstanding info can be requested from the AC. the BCO does not go through the BCMS lodgement and confirm its validation.

    So it's central BCMS that actually validates a CN? not the local BCO?


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    #83
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    That's just the jobs you are selecting for inspection?

    Yes. Any job that get to inspect, that info will be requested early on.

    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »



    So it's central BCMS that actually validates a CN? not the local BCO?

    No, they are validated in house in my LA by the admin team. They don't check the content of the inspection plan, it's not their job to do that. But it must be uploaded.


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    #84
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    kceire wrote: »
    Yes. Any job that get to inspect, that info will be requested early on.

    Ah yes, understood.

    kceire wrote: »
    No, they are validated in house in my LA by the admin team. They don't check the content of the inspection plan, it's not their job to do that. But it must be uploaded.

    OK, the few BCO that I know validate their own areas CN's, but I thought we uploaded them and ye just gave the nod, so to speak, to validate them.


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    #85
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    Ah yes, understood.




    OK, the few BCO that I know validate their own areas CN's, but I thought we uploaded them and ye just gave the nod, so to speak, to validate them.

    Depends on the county I suppose. We are the busiest in the country and tbh if we validated the CN's ourselves we would never get to site.

    There are only 4 inspectors for Dublin City!


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