Public Sector Workers are preparing for 8% paycut - where did this info come from?

webtargets · 23-11-2009 6:03pm #1

I work in the public sector. some of the lads striking tomorrow think we're getting an 8% paycut across the board. I see another thread that claims it will be only 2% (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927052.ece). Where are peopel getting these figures from?

Do people gneuinely think they'll cut people on under €30K by 8%???

...it seems incredible

Riskymove · 23-11-2009 6:04pm

restricted information and chinese whispers on all sides

Mcloke · 23-11-2009 6:19pm

All pay cuts in any form are hard to swallow...the public sector has already had a paycut of approx 7% this year (the pension levy) which would be a total of 15% if another 8% got cut and before anyone shouts at me...I also have friends in the private sector who have had 2 x 10% paycuts this year but I also know others in the private sector who have had no paycut.

I wish people would start opening their eyes that this is not about which sector (if either) you work in and more about how badly this country has been run....and that is NOT the individuals who happen to work in the public sectors fault.

No I don't work in the public sector :rolleyes:

The post I was responding to has dissappeared

ardmacha · 23-11-2009 6:56pm

The government is proceeding in an unprincipled way, in total contravention of any principle of industrial relations.

They could say that they are rescinding increases in 2008 or 2007
they could say that they are returning scales to 2006.
They could say that they are unwinding benchmarking
they could say that they are going to put people on salaries based on 2003 + the CPI changes since then.

Any of these things would have a basis and would achieve the desired reduction to expenditure to match the reduction in taxation. But instead they apply cuts/levies based on nothing in particular or at best based on the idea that people who get paid more should have a bigger cut, although the CSO data largely suggests that it is people at lower levels who have rates most out of line.

Pay levels in the public service should be established by reference to the pay in Ireland and comparable countries. Contributions to the less well off and the National good should be handled through the tax system. The government have seen this coming for 18 months now yet there is little sign of any rational thinking on the subject. People might be happy with short term measures if there was any sign of a long term plan.

dvpower · 24-11-2009 12:31am

webtargets wrote: »

Do people gneuinely think they'll cut people on under €30K by 8%???

Not a chance in hell.

webtargets · 24-11-2009 10:14am

Its as though the government wanted this strike to go ahead. This country is gettin more and more ridiculous. Scalpin public sector when people who work for banks and financial companies havnt seen any hit in pay at all?? BOI got a pay increase weeks after we got hit with the first levy earlier this year. And we've bailed them out! People dont even know what they're striking for. They're striking coz they're scared

anonymous_joe · 24-11-2009 11:00am

webtargets wrote: »

I work in the public sector. some of the lads striking tomorrow think we're getting an 8% paycut across the board. I see another thread that claims it will be only 2% (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6927052.ece). Where are peopel getting these figures from?

Do people gneuinely think they'll cut people on under €30K by 8%???

...it seems incredible

Course they will.

The government is spending more money than it has. It's going to cut the public service's pay.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-11-2009 3:09pm

webtargets wrote: »

Its as though the government wanted this strike to go ahead. This country is gettin more and more ridiculous. Scalpin public sector when people who work for banks and financial companies havnt seen any hit in pay at all?? BOI got a pay increase weeks after we got hit with the first levy earlier this year. And we've bailed them out! People dont even know what they're striking for. They're striking coz they're scared

It's not about one set or workers getting hit while another doesn't - it's about the employers affording the payroll. the public sector is getting "scalped" because there is not enough tax revenue to pay for it and they are overpaid anyway.

Having said that, I do think that the bank staff should get hit anyway as without taxpayer money the banks would have to cut their payroll also.

Drumpot · 24-11-2009 3:37pm

I have had this debate over and over again.

Im not a public servant employee and simply believe that no one sector should be protected at the expense of another.

That said, I empathise with anybody struggling to meet their bills, but there is hardship being handed out to EVERYBODY.

The public service is NOT getting it worse then the rest of us, we are all worried , whether its about losing or jobs or getting reduced wages. This is the main problem many people have with the public servants. They are screaming from the hills as if they are the only ones experiencing difficulty or pain and speak as though we are privileged to have them working for us!

Just curious about this . .

If this is the greatest economic crisis our country has ever seen , is getting a 15% - 20% pay cut (while keeping your job) really that obscene or unfair ?

What exactly do you think a recession or Depression entails ?

What exactly is fair about them ?

ardmacha · 24-11-2009 3:42pm

If this is the greatest economic crisis our country has ever seen , is getting a 15% - 20% pay cut (while keeping your job) really that obscene or unfair ?

It is rather odd that people in non cyclical sectors are expected to suffer 20% pay cut when GDP will only fall by 13%, most have not had paycuts and others continue to receive pay rises.

leninbenjamin · 24-11-2009 3:46pm

webtargets wrote: »

Do people gneuinely think they'll cut people on under €30K by 8%???

...it seems incredible

have you seen the size of the budget deficit? can you honestly see that money coming from anywhere else but cuts to current expenditure?

Are you aware that the size of the current budget deficit is greater than the total income tax take for the country?

are you aware that the cost of living has fallen in this country by 6% this year alone? Indeed I'd hazard it's well over 10% myself since the 2007 peak.

that people can't face up to the fact we need cuts... it seems incredible

Drumpot · 24-11-2009 3:48pm

ardmacha wrote: »

It is rather odd that people in non cyclical sectors are expected to suffer 20% pay cut when GDP will only fall by 13%, most have not had paycuts and others continue to receive pay rises.

Its rather odd that you didnt answer my questions & chose one point as if it cancels out all other arguements for certain cuts . . .

pwd · 24-11-2009 3:51pm

€54 billion of taxpayers money being given to the banks is what's unbelievable. Cuts in private sector salaries are to be expected after that. It's just one of many many things they will do to squeeze €54 billion euro out of the people of the country. It's pure theft imo.

leninbenjamin · 24-11-2009 3:54pm

pwd wrote: »

€54 billion of taxpayers money being given to the banks is what's unbelievable. Cuts in private sector salaries are to be expected after that. It's just one of many many things they will do to squeeze €54 billion euro out of the people of the country. It's pure theft imo.

you do realise that €54 billion is being kept off the books (some EU loop hole)? Our current budget deficit is before the expenditure to the banks has even been taken into consideration. Cuts would have to come regardless.

pwd · 24-11-2009 4:06pm

so where did the 54 billion come from?

Wile E. Coyote · 24-11-2009 4:12pm

I'm sick and tired of listening to this bullsh*t about the poor public sector workers who have to take a paycut. When are you going to realise that the country can't afford your wages?

I'm on or at least I was on €32k. I got hit with a 15% pay cut. Did I have a choice to strike? No. It was either take the cut or bag your bags. Thats what should be done with you lot as well. Either you take the cut or you find another job!

McTigs · 24-11-2009 4:13pm

pwd wrote: »

so where did the 54 billion come from?

Low interest loan from the European Central Bank

Probably given on condition that cuts are made to expenditure especially the public sector pay bill which i'm sure they view as astronomical

techdiver · 24-11-2009 4:14pm

pwd wrote: »

so where did the 54 billion come from?

Bonds that are redeemable through the ECB.

pwd · 24-11-2009 4:16pm

so it's not off the books...it's still money owed by the taxpayers.

bad2dabone · 24-11-2009 4:21pm

just a question is it true that increments of 3% were paid to Public sector workers? i'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone here, i heard some guy on the radio saying that increments of 3% were paid this year. just want to know if its true.

techdiver · 24-11-2009 4:22pm

pwd wrote: »

so it's not off the books...it's still money owed by the taxpayers.

It does not count against are current deficit or our national debt figure. If NAMA did not happen the cuts in the budget would still have to be made. We are basically running the county on the credit card at the moment and we are going close to maxing it out at this stage. When that happens we have no other avenue to generate borrowing and the country goes bankrupt.

If this happens the ECB will dictate terms (as I don't think the IMF will be invited into a Euro zone country), in the harshest possible way quite similar to the way the IMF would. They are not answerable to unions and will make unilateral cuts across the boards in pay/pensions/social welfare and no amount of striking or moaning about it will make the slightest bit of difference.

P. Breathnach · 24-11-2009 4:27pm

pwd wrote: »

€54 billion of taxpayers money being given to the banks is what's unbelievable...

Of course it's unbelievable. It's not true.

pwd · 24-11-2009 4:33pm

ok
I think the point I'm trying to make is still valid though.
Which is that the paycuts are an inevitable result of the country not having enough money. So if people are going to strike and protest, it should be when the government is deciding to provide a bailout, or other decisions that lead to this situation.

Gumbo · 24-11-2009 4:35pm

bad2dabone wrote: »

just a question is it true that increments of 3% were paid to Public sector workers? i'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone here, i heard some guy on the radio saying that increments of 3% were paid this year. just want to know if its true.

i dont think so, i didnt get it.
that was part of the 2016 wage agreement which has been cancelled iirc.

incriments are still being paid though i think, im not due one so cant say for sure, but they may be scrapped in Dec budget, who knows.

pwd · 24-11-2009 4:35pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Of course it's unbelievable. It's not true.

It's quite widely published...

Ireland is about to pay 54 billion euros in bonds to cleanse banks of risky property loans via a "bad bank", the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA), with the bonds to be cashed in by the European Central Bank.

http://www.reuters.com/article/managementIssues/idUSLJ31522320091119

LordDorington · 24-11-2009 4:36pm

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of listening to this bullsh*t about the poor public sector workers who have to take a paycut. When are you going to realise that the country can't afford your wages?

I'm on or at least I was on €32k. I got hit with a 15% pay cut. Did I have a choice to strike? No. It was either take the cut or bag your bags. Thats what should be done with you lot as well. Either you take the cut or you find another job!

well said. There are people in my family who were private sector and have been told to take a cut in hours/pay or else... Its a pity the goernment wouldnt take the same hard line with the Public sector.

LordDorington · 24-11-2009 4:37pm

kceire wrote: »

i dont think so, i didnt get it.
that was part of the 2016 wage agreement which has been cancelled iirc.

incriments are still being paid though i think, im not due one so cant say for sure, but they may be scrapped in Dec budget, who knows.

I know some people who did get it. Its the obe they get every year? There was uproar when they thought they werent getting it but then it went ahead. Maybe it depends on which area they are in?

Absurdum · 24-11-2009 4:41pm

LordDorington wrote: »

well said. There are people in my family who were private sector and have been told to take a cut in hours/pay or else... Its a pity the goernment wouldnt take the same hard line with the Public sector.

You'll be pleased to hear that they have.

OMD · 24-11-2009 4:43pm

LordDorington wrote: »

I know some people who did get it. Its the obe they get every year? There was uproar when they thought they werent getting it but then it went ahead. Maybe it depends on which area they are in?

increments were paid as normal this year. Many public sector workers will earn more in 2010 after the pay cut than they did in 2009 due to increments

LordDorington · 24-11-2009 4:46pm

Absurdum wrote: »

You'll be pleased to hear that they have.

I doubt that. There are talks of turning this into a two or three day strike now.

RMDrive · 24-11-2009 4:46pm

OMD wrote: »

increments were paid as normal this year. Many public sector workers will earn more in 2010 after the pay cut than they did in 2009 due to increments

It's something that leads to some confusion IMO.
When someone in the private sector says that they are on a pay freeze, then that simply means that their wages will not increase.
PS workers who state that they are on a pay freeze do not include increments.
Increment = Pay increase!

LordDorington · 24-11-2009 4:51pm

RMDrive wrote: »

It's something that leads to some confusion IMO.
When someone in the private sector says that they are on a pay freeze, then that simply means that their wages will not increase.
PS workers who state that they are on a pay freeze do not include increments.
Increment = Pay increase!

So they say they are not getting an increase even though they are? There does see to be a lot of dancing around the subject to be honest. its hard to get a straight answer from anyone. They will select choice snippets of stats or surveys to further their own agenda but at the end of the day its true what they say about stats - they reveal nothing and hide everything.

I remember a few weeks ago there was something in the papers about the poor public sector and something about "well a third of them are on less than 40k a year" (poor sods) - nobody seemed to clock that this also meant two thirds are on MORE than 40k a year. Baffling. BTW IMO 40k is a very respectable salary, and I know of people in the private sector living on just over half of that.

P. Breathnach · 24-11-2009 5:34pm

pwd wrote: »

It's quite widely published...

http://www.reuters.com/article/managementIssues/idUSLJ31522320091119

It's still not true. The government is arranging borrowing to fund NAMA. That's not the same as giving money to the banks.

Diom · 24-11-2009 5:48pm

There are no low-paid workers in the public service. Librarians, for example, get 24k starting out! That's silly, anyone can do that job, it's like stacking shelves at a supermarket.
8% of 24k = 1,920 and so our shelve stacker is getting €22,080. That's plenty. Plus that salary increases to over €45k... which is beyond ridiculous.

Sources:
http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=151
http://www.dit.ie/media/documents/humanresources/salaryscales/Scales200803200809Web.pdf

Gumbo · 24-11-2009 5:51pm

Diom wrote: »

There are no low-paid workers in the public service. Librarians, for example, get 24k starting out! That's silly, anyone can do that job, it's like stacking shelves at a supermarket.
8% of 24k = 1,920 and so our shelve stacker is getting €22,080. That's plenty. Plus that salary increases to over €45k... which is beyond ridiculous.

Sources:
http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=151
http://www.dit.ie/media/documents/humanresources/salaryscales/Scales200803200809Web.pdf

from YOUR LINK -

Pay and Opportunities
Opportunities exist with county council libraries or school, third level institutions or government departments. In the private sector financial institution, law firms, publishers and the media are potential employers. Part time work is common. Library assistants, with experience and qualifications, often become librarians. See www.publicjobs.ie for information on public sector salaries. Library assistants can earn from EUR22k per year to EUR37k per year. A senior library assistant can earn more than this.

http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=151#5

kmick · 24-11-2009 5:56pm

People keep mentioning the 7% pay cut. Was that not a pension contribution?

irish_bob · 24-11-2009 6:38pm

techdiver wrote: »

It does not count against are current deficit or our national debt figure. If NAMA did not happen the cuts in the budget would still have to be made. We are basically running the county on the credit card at the moment and we are going close to maxing it out at this stage. When that happens we have no other avenue to generate borrowing and the country goes bankrupt.

If this happens the ECB will dictate terms (as I don't think the IMF will be invited into a Euro zone country), in the harshest possible way quite similar to the way the IMF would. They are not answerable to unions and will make unilateral cuts across the boards in pay/pensions/social welfare and no amount of striking or moaning about it will make the slightest bit of difference.

+1 , everything we see now can be traced back to the collapse of the property boom , the banking crisis has only compounded our problems , with a huge loss in revenue from property related transactions , we no longer have the money to fund europes highest paid public sector , it was not conventional income tax receipts which funded our public sector wage bill at the level its at and it wont be income tax receipts which fund it at this level now so their has to be cuts

as for the money lenders in europe who are keeping the country afloat , they dont give a rats ass who causes the mess , they didnt offer us terms , they gave us orders to get our house in

Diom · 24-11-2009 6:43pm

kceire wrote: »

from YOUR LINK -

Pay and Opportunities
Opportunities exist with county council libraries or school, third level institutions or government departments. In the private sector financial institution, law firms, publishers and the media are potential employers. Part time work is common. Library assistants, with experience and qualifications, often become librarians. See www.publicjobs.ie for information on public sector salaries. Library assistants can earn from EUR22k per year to EUR37k per year. A senior library assistant can earn more than this.

http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=151#5

Yes?

Look at the actual figure from DIT.

Darragh29 · 24-11-2009 6:45pm

Some absolute clown from the INTO just said on the news, "We've no company car's, we've no bonuses"...

FACTS:

(1) If you have a company car in the private sector, you get hit for no less than 200 Euro a month in BIK (Benefit in Kind). A company car is a tool of your job as opposed to a perk of your job in the vast majority of cases.

(2) If you get a bonus in the private sector, you had to work for it and damn hard in the current climate. If you get a bonus, it's usually on the basis of a provable and verifiable improvement in productivity or performance.

Boskowski · 24-11-2009 6:48pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's still not true. The government is arranging borrowing to fund NAMA. That's not the same as giving money to the banks.

Not seeing the wood from the trees and splitting hairs are also two different things...

ardmacha · 24-11-2009 6:57pm

If you get a bonus in the private sector, you had to work for it and damn hard in the current climate. If you get a bonus, it's usually on the basis of a provable and verifiable improvement in productivity or performance.

What sort of performance exactly? Many large bonuses were paid out on banks on foot of loans being "sold" to people who are never going to pay them back. These bonuses were paid to people who have destroyed their shareholders capital and who have precipitated the current crisis by requiring the taxpayer to bail them out.

irish_bob · 24-11-2009 6:59pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Some absolute clown from the INTO just said on the news, "We've no company car's, we've no bonuses"...

FACTS:

(1) If you have a company car in the private sector, you get hit for no less than 200 Euro a month in BIK (Benefit in Kind). A company car is a tool of your job as opposed to a perk of your job in the vast majority of cases.

(2) If you get a bonus in the private sector, you had to work for it and damn hard in the current climate. If you get a bonus, it's usually on the basis of a provable and verifiable improvement in productivity or performance.

public sector workers are given a vocabulary of slogans to use ( pull at heartstrings ) by thier unions , by and large , they are well briefed and seem to be on message , very little of what is said is not union indoctrinated rhetoric

WE DIDNT CAUSE THE MESS
THE BANKS , THE DEVELOPERS
THE PRIVATE SECTOR ALL GET BONUSES
I STARE DEATH IN THE FACE ON A DAILY BASIS
ALL PUBLIC SERVANTS HAVE TAKEN A PAY CUT , ALL PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS HAVE NOT

shallow rhetoric but effective none the less once you wash , rinse and repeat

P. Breathnach · 24-11-2009 7:40pm

realcam wrote: »

Not seeing the wood from the trees and splitting hairs are also two different things...

That's no answer.

The simple fact is that the government is not giving $54bn of taxpayers' money to the banks.

P. Breathnach · 24-11-2009 7:41pm

irish_bob wrote: »

public sector workers are given a vocabulary of slogans to use ( pull at heartstrings ) by thier unions , by and large , they are well briefed and seem to be on message , very little of what is said is not union indoctrinated rhetoric

WE DIDNT CAUSE THE MESS
THE BANKS , THE DEVELOPERS
THE PRIVATE SECTOR ALL GET BONUSES
I STARE DEATH IN THE FACE ON A DAILY BASIS
ALL PUBLIC SERVANTS HAVE TAKEN A PAY CUT , ALL PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS HAVE NOT

shallow rhetoric but effective none the less once you wash , rinse and repeat

I ask again (because you post the same stuff again): who briefed them?

astrofool · 24-11-2009 8:38pm

I wish the public sector would realise that one of the side effects of job security is that they all have to take a cut when the income (tax) drops. In a private company, they can reduce staff, if you cannot reduce staff, then all staff have to take a pay cut.

The maths is very simple.

LordDorington · 25-11-2009 10:14am

kmick wrote: »

People keep mentioning the 7% pay cut. Was that not a pension contribution?

thank you!!! God I thought I was the only one who noticed that. Telling you, if a private pension fund was offering the same rates we would be looking for the catch!

LordDorington · 25-11-2009 10:16am

Diom wrote: »

There are no low-paid workers in the public service. Librarians, for example, get 24k starting out! That's silly, anyone can do that job, it's like stacking shelves at a supermarket.
8% of 24k = 1,920 and so our shelve stacker is getting €22,080. That's plenty. Plus that salary increases to over €45k... which is beyond ridiculous.

Sources:
http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=151
http://www.dit.ie/media/documents/humanresources/salaryscales/Scales200803200809Web.pdf

Ha laughable. I started on 24k with an honours degree in Chemistry. So I could have forfeited the degree and just stacked shelves...hmmm

Wile E. Coyote · 25-11-2009 11:04am

kmick wrote: »

People keep mentioning the 7% pay cut. Was that not a pension contribution?

Thats something that really annoys me aswell. A pension levy is not a paycut. And it's only a 7% LEVY if your earning over €45k!

Can someone please tell me if paying into a pension in the public service is mandatory? In other words if they feel so hard done by with the levy can they opt out and simply not pay into one in the same way that most private sector workers who can't afford to?

ssaye · 25-11-2009 12:44pm

Public Sector Pensions are mandatory for full time staff. If you are in certain departments you have to pay an additional mandatory spouse and child pension. So there are c50000 people paying 2 pensions per week. Anyway, I have worked in 4 different departments in the Public Sector and I am very thankful for the work. The dirty little secret as I see from the National Debts is that its not next months budget thats the killer, its the next 5 budgets, no matter what government is voted in. December 09 cuts (c6.9%), April 10 (c2.5%), December 10(c7.5%), April 11 (c3%), December 11 (c7.9%)

So if you were on 500 per week take home, you will be on c360-400 in 2 years.

Social Welfare needs to be cut too obviously but staggered 204 down to 175 over 2 years. If you are out of work for over 10 years and have no medical complaint, it has to be halved, there are 25000 thousand people on the dole for over 25 years in Ireland and under the age of 50.

LordDorington · 25-11-2009 12:50pm

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Thats something that really annoys me aswell. A pension levy is not a paycut. And it's only a 7% LEVY if your earning over €45k!

Can someone please tell me if paying into a pension in the public service is mandatory? In other words if they feel so hard done by with the levy can they opt out and simply not pay into one in the same way that most private sector workers who can't afford to?

I thought of that before, if they really dont want to pay it then why not give them an opt out clause where they dont pay a contribution and then they can just get the same as the rest of us - 204 per week? Its NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Why do people want to have their cake and eat it.

LordDorington · 25-11-2009 12:55pm

ssaye wrote: »

Public Sector Pensions are mandatory for full time staff. If you are in certain departments you have to pay an additional mandatory spouse and child pension.

So their spouses and children will receive some benefit form this I am sure? They are hardly paying it for nothing - we would have heard all about it by now
So if you were on 500 per week take home, you will be on c360-400 in 2 years.

Social Welfare needs to be cut too obviously but staggered 204 down to 175 over 2 years. If you are out of work for over 10 years and have no medical complaint, it has to be halved, there are 25000 thousand people on the dole for over 25 years in Ireland and under the age of 50.

Well this I do agree with to some extent. Long term welfare recipients should be looked at, but only to free up more money for those recently unemployed and struggling with mortgages. The difference between 175 and 204, if not put back into the welfare "pot" for those who genuinely need it, would be deemed "penny pinching" if used to try to solve the countrys economic crises.

Public Sector Workers are preparing for 8% paycut - where did this info come from?

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