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Rationalisation

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    relaxed wrote: »
    What's amazing about not stopping at ardrahan and craughwell?

    We all know there is a reversal required at athenry, what amazes you about that?

    You should get a job at Irish rail, you would fit right in if it negativity you seek.

    You still haven't explained how culling some stops and reducing padding will cost hundreds of millions to reduce journey times.

    The fact that it was proposed by someone to drop 4 stops not 2.... yeah, you could drop two off-peak , but you couldn't drop them on the very trains they are likely to be used on...ie the Peak-time services, let alone ever drop them from 4....

    The fact that someone could work out an average speed not allowing for that reversal....

    The loss not being covered by a subsidy, have IE a magic money jar?....

    To reduce times to anywhere near the extent proposed in some of these ill-thought out posts would involve easing curves, eliminating crossings, building an avoiding line at Athenry and installing more loops, plus the signalling alterations to enable that lot. Hundreds of millions.It is what should have been spent in the first place and wasn't.

    I'm not negative, I'm simply pointing out that some of you have their heads in the clouds. The reality is quite different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    it is a very big issue as potential capacity is being removed for no good reason, when CIE stop destroying the peoples infrastructure then it will be time to move along

    As Ballina can handle such large volumes of freight traffic with such limited tracks and space, removing a few tracks in Limerick won't cause problems and nowhere on the network will see such freight as Ballina does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    As Ballina can handle such large volumes of freight traffic with such limited tracks and space, removing a few tracks in Limerick won't cause problems and nowhere on the network will see such freight as Ballina does.

    Why? I suppose the rush to disconnect sidings, scrap container gantries, sell-off land etc. might have something to do with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Why? I suppose the rush to disconnect sidings, scrap container gantries, sell-off land etc. might have something to do with it.

    Two major issues the M7 and what customer base is there for such services that are at Ballina Anyway it was just pointing out how Ballina copes with such a tiny level of space and people are up in arms about a track or two being taken away in Limerick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,162 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Two major issues the M7 and what customer base is there for such services that are at Ballina Anyway it was just pointing out how Ballina copes with such a tiny level of space and people are up in arms about a track or two being taken away in Limerick.


    the M7 should have nothing to do with it, people are up in arms about the entity intrusted to look after the peoples railway continuing to destroy it

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    the M7 should have nothing to do with it, people are up in arms about the entity intrusted to look after the peoples railway continuing to destroy it

    They are destroying nothing. It's a few tracks that have not being used in years. There would be valid points if they were completely removing all unused sidings which they are not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They are destroying nothing. It's a few tracks that have not being used in years. There would be valid points if they were completely removing all unused sidings which they are not.

    I think the key word here is "destroyed" I agree that sidings pulled up is nothing major but IE has helped the destruction of rail freight more than anyone else


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    davidlacey wrote: »
    I think the key word here is "destroyed" I agree that sidings pulled up is nothing major but IE has helped the destruction of rail freight more than anyone else

    Remind me when freight operated to Limerick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,162 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    we'l just have to agree to disagree jamie

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Remind me when freight operated to Limerick.

    Norfolk liners used to run round there on the Cork to Waterford runs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Limerick Junction surely


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    The sidings they're taking up have only been used for storing the 22k's when they arrived first and more recently 2700's and some wagons. I read somewhere once that the Limerick gantry was never used?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The issue I'd have is thinking that a freight yard for Limerick would have to be at Colbert Station. It's a bit of a tight area for bringing things into/out from. As for Ballina, it manages with little infrastructure. Lots of things can be made work if you have a mind to do so and the road alternative sucks enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    Corktina - just saw this in the paper and thought Id share it-

    From the Irish Independant, Monday 26-May-2104

    ROAD bosses need €100m in additional funding every year to prevent the motorway network from falling into disrepair.

    The National Roads Authority (NRA) says as much as one-third of the national network – 1,800km – is in 'fair or poor' condition and needs maintenance to prevent further deterioration.

    And a failure to provide the necessary funding will result in the road network becoming as badly degraded over time as our creaking water infrastructure, NRA chief executive Fred Barry told the Irish Independent.

    He said it was "essential" to maintain investment to protect some 5,500km of primary road network.

    "We are spending less and have been for the last number of years than is appropriate over the long-term," he said.

    "We are still managing and we're not going to see potholes and roads sliding into verges, but we have about two-thirds of the network which is either good or in very good condition, with the balance poor or fair. But over time, the amount that's very good moves to good, and fair moves to poor.

    "It's essential that capital maintenance and rehabilitation is carried out. There's an asset value of €30bn there, and it's important we retain that value. The models and surveys show that eventually you end up where the water network is at the moment – that's the ultimate price you pay for under-investment."

    Some €300m has been provided to the NRA this year from the Department of Transport for capital projects, which includes funding ongoing operations and maintenance and to pay back the cost of building motorways under public-private partnerships.

    The amount being provided has plummeted in recent years. In 2012, some €600m was allocated, which fell to €300m last year.

    Dangerous roads or poor road conditions are a contributory factor in almost 4pc of all fatal and serious road collisions, the Road Safety Authority said.

    However, the NRA stressed that the road network was not in a dangerous condition, but that repairs were needed to maintain high standards.

    "We think we need about another €100m to deal with the long-term asset maintenance. It is clearly a lot of money, but state funding for networks in other countries the size of Ireland would be about €800m – €1bn a year," Mr Barry said.

    Link - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/motorway-network-could-be-on-road-to-ruin-unless-extra-100m-found-for-repair-work-30304359.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    5500 km of National road need an extra €100 million for repairs

    50 km of Limerick to Galway rail needs extra €6 million to cover it's loses.

    Easy math to see which is best value...... and there are an awful lot more people using our National Road than use the WRC


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,162 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    its still a lot of money for motor ways which in many cases were overspecked in the first place for which at most a dual carrige way would have been more then fine, i wonder if the money is for basic maintenence to keep them in a basic condition rather then the condition they would have been built to in the first place?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    its still a lot of money for motor ways which in many cases were overspecked in the first place for which at most a dual carrige way would have been more then fine, i wonder if the money is for basic maintenence to keep them in a basic condition rather then the condition they would have been built to in the first place?

    It's not just motorways...it's all National roads....5500km of them.

    I'd wager most if not all of it is for non-motorways at this stage too

    The bit about motorways in the first paragraph is no doubt an Indo mistake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Back when the Milne report into Transport in Ireland came out in 1948, one of the findings was that Ireland had 4 times as many roads per head of the population compared with other European countries. While the population has increased so have the amount of roads and I wonder what the current situation is?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I doubt the roads (other than the Motorways ) have increased much, just been improved out of all comparison


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    corktina wrote: »
    I doubt the roads (other than the Motorways ) have increased much, just been improved out of all comparison

    My point is that we have far too many roads and in the same way as Level Crossings are being eliminated to save costs on the railways, certain roads could be abandoned or handed over to farmers to save costs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    We don't have too many roads, we have too small a population and that's due to half the country being underwater most of the time, a certain famine, no heavy industry/raw materials, emigration etc

    I do agree though, many roads could be de-nationalised as they are maintained solely for the use of a handful of residents


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    corktina wrote: »
    We don't have too many roads, we have too small a population and that's due to half the country being underwater most of the time, a certain famine, no heavy industry/raw materials, emigration etc

    I do agree though, many roads could be de-nationalised as they are maintained solely for the use of a handful of residents

    I suspect that many of the road we now have are a result of famine relief projects which build road for the sake of it.

    In a similar way, many of our motorways seem to have been built or over engineered to keep the likes of SISK and Clonmel ticking over


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    that's as maybe but I can show you roads near me that have gone out of use. The Old Kerry Road from Kanturk for instance whish kind of peters out in a bog now


  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    The point of my post was not to argue the merits of subsidising a railway line that is not used but to point out that the road haulage business is heavily subsidised by the state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I suspect that many of the road we now have are a result of famine relief projects which build road for the sake of it.
    which now can't be abandoned as they are lined with one off houses and ribbon development :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    The point of my post was not to argue the merits of subsidising a railway line that is not used but to point out that the road haulage business is heavily subsidised by the state.

    And I showed that in fact the extra €100 million spent on 5500km of roads is a very small amount in relation to the traffic that passes on our N roads every day and is good value for money compared to lightly used rail lines.

    Every single one of us benefits every day from our road network. So even if this is a subsidy of the haulage industry, it is of benefit to us all. It is of course a "subsidy" for every business and every citizen in the Country.

    So what are you advocating? Increasing "road" tax or maybe postponing vital road maintenance (or is that a subsidy for the motor repair industry?)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    dowlingm wrote: »
    which now can't be abandoned as they are lined with one off houses and ribbon development :(

    Not all of them have, least of all the ones which led up and down mountains though yes, most of them would.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,162 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    And I showed that in fact the extra €100 million spent on 5500km of roads is a very small amount in relation to the traffic that passes on our N roads every day and is good value for money compared to lightly used rail lines.

    Every single one of us benefits every day from our road network. So even if this is a subsidy of the haulage industry, it is of benefit to us all. It is of course a "subsidy" for every business and every citizen in the Country.

    So what are you advocating? Increasing "road" tax or maybe postponing vital road maintenance (or is that a subsidy for the motor repair industry?)?

    the haulage industry needs to pay more, its the big trucks doing the most damage, a limit on the size of trucks wouldn't work though as they will get bigger and bigger, so they need to contribute more, the express coach operators running between the citties could do with contributing more also, car tax will probably go up anyway.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    All motorways benefit greatly all road users - nobody is saying anything to the contrary.
    Considering that the maintenance associated with the passing of of one HGV is equivalent to that of many thousands of cars, I'd say the road haulage business is being subsidised to a good degree.
    100,000,000 euro is a fairly hefty figure no matter what way its presented.
    Not too sure where you are coming from re tax increases & the motor repair industry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    So what the last two posts are saying is charge the truckers more? Well, ask yourself who ultimately pays .. all that will do is put up prices, on everything, and make foreign trucking firms more profitable at the expense of Irish firms.(and jobs)

    (if you don't repair the potholes, you get more car damage thus benefitting the car repairers)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    LOL.
    Im not suggesting anything other than the road haulahe receives its share of subsidisy from the exchequer.
    corktina wrote: »
    So what the last two posts are saying is charge the truckers more? Well, ask yourself who ultimately pays .. all that will do is put up prices, on everything, and make foreign trucking firms more profitable at the expense of Irish firms.(and jobs)

    (if you don't repair the potholes, you get more car damage thus benefitting the car repairers)


  • Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    corktina wrote: »
    So what the last two posts are saying is charge the truckers more? Well, ask yourself who ultimately pays .. all that will do is put up prices, on everything, and make foreign trucking firms more profitable at the expense of Irish firms.(and jobs)

    (if you don't repair the potholes, you get more car damage thus benefitting the car repairers)

    If road haulers get a subsidy why not the irish rail freight division? only fair to have competition?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    sure, we can spare about €50,that should be enough to cover their market share


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,162 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    or we could remove the subsidy for the road hauliers and stop them from passing on any more then a small percentage to the customer, many of them don't need a subsidy as they are proffitable and probably would be anyway, or subsidize both road and rail freight and make it fair.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    we are their customers. we pay every way

    Can you detail how much subsidy Hauliers get versus the tax take from them and their employees and could you also show that Irish Rail freight breaks even and doesn't get any loses covered by Government or other sources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    corktina wrote: »
    we are their customers. we pay every way

    Can you detail how much subsidy Hauliers get versus the tax take from them and their employees and could you also show that Irish Rail freight breaks even and doesn't get any loses covered by Government or other sources.

    I reckon rail freight breaks even, it is just a convienent loss that IE have submitted in their annual report. The problem with IE getting new business is alot of old infrastructure was disbanded as it costs money to maintain and no subsidy covers it, It is in the governments interest under the kyoto protocol to look for alternative modes of freight transport especially, a freight grant for new business opportunities would be a better idea than simply giving a subsidy which would in no doubt be used to balanxe IEs books


  • Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭metrovick001


    Im sure the EU must know absolutly nothing about rail freight but its worth a read -

    http://ec.europa.eu/transport/marcopolo/index_en.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    With the amount of back pedalling on the Kyoto Agreement among the G20 might as well call it the Kyoto Greenway.


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