Mark IVs

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 4:42pm #1

There is a post on the Irish rail past/present Facebook page that the Mark IVs and most 201s have been put up for sale, suprising?, untrue, or another scandalous waste of money on behalf of Irish Rail/government, discuss...

Grandeeod · 20-05-2014 4:50pm

davidlacey wrote: »

There is a post on the Irish rail past/present Facebook page that the Mark IVs and most 201s have been put up for sale, suprising?, untrue, or another scandalous waste of money on behalf of Irish Rail/government, discuss...

I'll comment if its confirmed.

corktina · 20-05-2014 4:58pm

quote from fb

"Spoke to train driver at Heuston today. Mark IVs are up for sale. Most are withdrawn from service and stored at Inchicore. Most of the 201 locos also up for sale."
Believe it when confirmed

LXFlyer · 20-05-2014 5:15pm

Frankly this is just idle gossip.

There are four sets in service as such - three on a daily basis and one as maintenance spare.

The balance are in storage, but if the economy improves will come back into use. In the meantime they may be used to substitute for the Enterprise sets when they are being refurbished.

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 10:11pm

Is storage the right option though? and how are they stored? The same way the mark 3s/201s are? Nobody can deny the 201s were a scandalous waste of money, how many years did CIE/IE get out of 121s/141s almost 50 years?, just over 20 years into 201s lifespan and majority of them are lying to rot, They are not energy efficient and I am not making a case for running them for train spotters, but is there not a case for storing engines and rolling stock the right way so that if they do enter service again, there is little work to be done on them for an already cash-strapped IE?

Captain Chaos · 20-05-2014 10:23pm

If they kept the Mk3s and gave them a mid life refurb the 201s would have something to do but seeing as they went out and bought a load of ICRs the 201s are now surplus to requirements. Over 30% of the 201 fleet is out of use and/or not needed. They are not even bothering to repair them after major failures anymore.

All they are needed for is 3 Enterprise sets, 4 Mk4 sets and a few IWT liners per week. The 18 071s are less energy efficient but are all in use or soon will be as they are easier on the track.

end of the road · 20-05-2014 10:52pm

and after it all the people of wexford wicklow and sligo still have to put up with a scheduled service being ran by a commuter railcar, while IE are allowed to waste money on rolling stock purchases and premature storing nothing will change, thats something that could be dealt with but no removing the subsidy when IE make savings is more important, shame on it all

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 11:10pm

I understand 071s are easier on the rails and cleared on most lines unlike 201s but again it would not cost much to store the 201s properly as how much longer do the 071 fleet have? A railcar will not be able to operate the sperry, per way trains and whatever freight left

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 11:10pm

I understand 071s are easier on the rails and cleared on most lines unlike 201s but again it would not cost much to store the 201s properly as how much longer do the 071 fleet have? A railcar will not be able to operate the sperry, per way trains and whatever freight left

end of the road · 20-05-2014 11:15pm

if IE wanted to keep the stock servicable (the 201s mk3s 2700s) they would be able to store it properly, they don't so they won't, and nobody relevant will ask the right questions and will continue to believe what IE say

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 11:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

if IE wanted to keep the stock servicable (the 201s mk3s 2700s) they would be able to store it properly, they don't so they won't, and nobody relevant will ask the right questions and will continue to believe what IE say

especially not that muppet varadkar

davidlacey · 20-05-2014 11:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

if IE wanted to keep the stock servicable (the 201s mk3s 2700s) they would be able to store it properly, they don't so they won't, and nobody relevant will ask the right questions and will continue to believe what IE say

especially not that muppet varadkar

Losty Dublin · 21-05-2014 1:33am

davidlacey wrote: »

Is storage the right option though? and how are they stored? The same way the mark 3s/201s are?

They are stored in a massive big box full of foam balls a little bit like this. When they are needed, they wipe the sleep out of the windows with industrial sized cotton buds using a steam crane. There are also a set of Bredins, a MGWR tender, several members of the IRRS and William Dargan's original terrapin stored alongside them.

Cookie_Monster · 21-05-2014 1:47am

davidlacey wrote: »

especially not that muppet varadkar

"Commercial Sensitivity"

L1011 · 21-05-2014 8:58am

davidlacey wrote: »

I understand 071s are easier on the rails and cleared on most lines unlike 201s but again it would not cost much to store the 201s properly as how much longer do the 071 fleet have? A railcar will not be able to operate the sperry, per way trains and whatever freight left

They've just undergone a body overhaul; you would hope they've 20 years left in them after that. The prime movers can be completely refurbished or replaced if required.

Whether the 201s that have HEP installed have that long left in them is another question entirely - the 071s could easily have more life left.

GBOA · 21-05-2014 9:54am

Smick, the station cat at Lisburn, told me that the CAF 3000s are due to be converted to 3rd rail DC, re-gauged and sold to Southern trains to operate the Gatwick Express.

corktina · 21-05-2014 10:10am

GBOA wrote: »

Smick, the station cat at Lisburn, told me that the CAF 3000s are due to be converted to 3rd rail DC, re-gauged and sold to Southern trains to operate the Gatwick Express.

I heard they were going to re-gauge the tracks

Losty Dublin · 21-05-2014 10:39am

corktina wrote: »

I heard they were going to re-gauge the tracks

I heard they were going to convert the rolling stock to English gauge and the track to Irish gauge. Best of both worlds :pac:

dowlingm · 21-05-2014 2:17pm

Given Ireland's conditions, if you're not shrinkwrapping and putting desiccant inside, you're not "storing".

The only place I think of that might be desperate enough to take a flyer on a package deal of 201+Mark 4 is Brazil (1600mm gauge remember). Any EU operator is likely to be concerned about the long run cost of those EMD 710s which lack the latest emissions mod cons. This isn't the first time the 201s were supposed to be on the block remember.

I'm marking this down as "IE wanting Varadkar to think they are REALLY trying".

Victor · 21-05-2014 3:49pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They are stored in a massive big box full of foam balls a little bit like this. When they are needed, they wipe the sleep out of the windows with industrial sized cotton buds using a steam crane. There are also a set of Bredins, a MGWR tender, several members of the IRRS and William Dargan's original terrapin stored alongside them.

http://www.tortoisesoutheast.co.uk/users/www.tortoisesoutheast.co.uk/upload/Hib1.jpg

Play nice

Moderator

John Denver · 21-05-2014 6:05pm

Does anyone know anything about the Biomass freight stream coming online next year?
The reason I ask is I want to know do I.E have enough loco's to cope with extra freight streams?

dowlingm · 21-05-2014 8:18pm

John Denver wrote: »

Does anyone know anything about the Biomass freight stream coming online next year?
The reason I ask is I want to know do I.E have enough loco's to cope with extra freight streams?

IE could probably borrow at least one 111 but I think there's a likelihood they'll run out of wagons first, no?

Captain Chaos · 21-05-2014 8:20pm

John Denver wrote: »

Does anyone know anything about the Biomass freight stream coming online next year?
The reason I ask is I want to know do I.E have enough loco's to cope with extra freight streams?

There are plenty of 071s and 201s for extra freight flows. One thing IE have no shortage of is locos. Wagons is another thing.

corktina · 21-05-2014 8:29pm

and yet they chopped some up in Cork last week I hear.

davidlacey · 21-05-2014 9:43pm

corktina wrote: »

and yet they chopped some up in Cork last week I hear.

They chopped some in cork yard last week, correct, the ones in mallow rumour has it maybe overhauled

Losty Dublin · 22-05-2014 12:50am

corktina wrote: »

and yet they chopped some up in Cork last week I hear.

Wagons were lifted from Cork yard to Mallow for an eventual delivery to Limerick for refurbishment. From what I was told, and I am open to correction, but there wasn't any scrapping planned.

Jamie2k9 · 22-05-2014 2:39pm

Firstly if IE put these up for sale (which I don't beleive they have) then it's just plan and simply stupidy from managment. Who would buy Mark 4 trains which are capped at 100mph. 10 years old, wrong gaguage + 201 loco's which are over 20 years old and drink diseal like no tomorrow and reduce lifetime of rails.

Where in Europe have lines capped at 100. Yes the Mark 4's can do 125 but another operator is not going to buy old stock and order new power cars when doing a complete new order would make more comerical and econmical sense long term.

Anyway most intericty routes in Europe are electrified or are planned to be in the not to distance future.....

Does anyone know anything about the Biomass freight stream coming online next year?
The reason I ask is I want to know do I.E have enough loco's to cope with extra freight streams?

Begins in September according to Port Company of at least that was the planned start.

bikeman1 · 22-05-2014 3:11pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Firstly if IE put these up for sale (which I don't beleive they have) then it's just plan and simply stupidy from managment. Who would buy Mark 4 trains which are capped at 100mph. 10 years old, wrong gaguage + 201 loco's which are over 20 years old and drink diseal like no tomorrow and reduce lifetime of rails.

Where in Europe have lines capped at 100. Yes the Mark 4's can do 125 but another operator is not going to buy old stock and order new power cars when doing a complete new order would make more comerical and econmical sense long term.

Anyway most intericty routes in Europe are electrified or are planned to be in the not to distance future.....

Begins in September according to Port Company of at least that was the planned start.

Can you point me to studies that show that 7 Mk4s (passenger carrying vehicles) use more fuel than 7 22 engines? What about the wear and tear on all those little engines?

My understanding is when compared like with like, I.e 7 v 7 the Mk4s come out better than the 22s.

it is when you have half empty trains, that the problem arises, but can't short form them that the 22s running as 3/4 cars are most cost beneficial, but not on the busy trains that require 6/7 coaches.

Jamie2k9 · 22-05-2014 3:22pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

Can you point me to studies that show that 7 Mk4s (passenger carrying vehicles) use more fuel than 7 22 engines? What about the wear and tear on all those little engines?

My understanding is when compared like with like, I.e 7 v 7 the Mk4s come out better than the 22s.

it is when you have half empty trains, that the problem arises, but can't short form them that the 22s running as 3/4 cars are most cost beneficial, but not on the busy trains that require 6/7 coaches.

Never questioned the differance between 7 22 and 7 Mark 4 howeve the big problem with the Mark 4's is 201's and DVT ticking over 24/7 where as 22's don't cost money for large amounts of time when they are not working services.

However what I will say is if you are correct about 6/7 22 coming out better than a Mark 4 then surly from a cost point of view such workings of an extra Mark 4 would be justified on a Friday afternoon/Saturday mornig to replace the current 6/7 22. So the question is does the down time of the Mark 4 make them unviable?

Until recently they have 5 201's and 5 DVT's going 24/7 and ther was a reason for cutting that to 3!

bikeman1 · 22-05-2014 4:41pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Never questioned the differance between 7 22 and 7 Mark 4 howeve the big problem with the Mark 4's is 201's and DVT ticking over 24/7 where as 22's don't cost money for large amounts of time when they are not working services.

However what I will say is if you are correct about 6/7 22 coming out better than a Mark 4 then surly from a cost point of view such workings of an extra Mark 4 would be justified on a Friday afternoon/Saturday mornig to replace the current 6/7 22. So the question is does the down time of the Mark 4 make them unviable?

Until recently they have 5 201's and 5 DVT's going 24/7 and ther was a reason for cutting that to 3!

I would imagine the less vehicles you need in traffic the lower the cost. As Mk4s are better for only 3 days a week, so the 22s win out. But that won't always be the way.

Also locos and gen vans are shut down now at night. Even in Connolly they are shutting locos down if even for a few hours. So they are not on 24/7 as you suggest.

They are making cuts in one area, yet wasting it in others. I read the other day that €500,000 is to be spent on putting straps on the DART for passengers to hold on to. Now I use the DART everyday for getting in and out to work for the last 7 years and I have never found the need for such things. More money wasted.

end of the road · 22-05-2014 4:57pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

I read the other day that €500,000 is to be spent on putting straps on the DART for passengers to hold on to. Now I use the DART everyday for getting in and out to work for the last 7 years and I have never found the need for such things. More money wasted.

is it a waste of money though? sure, you and me won't benefit from it but with the trains getting shorter meaning more standing they could be beneficial to some, maybe your right and it is a waste, i don't know

bikeman1 · 22-05-2014 5:05pm

end of the road wrote: »

is it a waste of money though? sure, you and me won't benefit from it but with the trains getting shorter meaning more standing they could be beneficial to some, maybe your right and it is a waste, i don't know

Sure I can hardly move on some DARTs in the evening let alone grab some silly straps dangling from the roof!

I and others I'm sure would rather a couple of extra carriages!

end of the road · 22-05-2014 5:12pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

I and others I'm sure would rather a couple of extra carriages!

well no worries, IE have carriges coming out of their ears if only they would use them

Itssoeasy · 22-05-2014 8:28pm

davidlacey wrote: »

They chopped some in cork yard last week, correct, the ones in mallow rumour has it maybe overhauled

The ones on the siding near the water tower near the bridge ?

dublinman1990 · 23-05-2014 4:00pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

I read the other day that €500,000 is to be spent on putting straps on the DART for passengers to hold on to. Now I use the DART everyday for getting in and out to work for the last 7 years and I have never found the need for such things. More money wasted.

Are they going to be the same types of straps that are being used on the Luas? Are they used regularly by Luas passengers at all?

To pay €500k for those alone is a scandalous waste of money from IE. I'll bet now that the passengers won't have much opportunities to use them when they come around because they may not get much room when moving within a cramped DART while on their commute or some other occasion.

Jamie2k9 · 23-05-2014 7:23pm

To pay €500k for those alone is a scandalous waste of money from IE. I'll bet now that the passengers won't have much opportunities to use them when they come around because they may not get much room when moving within a cramped DART while on their commute or some other occasion.

It isn't IE's money, I'm sure its what the NTA came up with that sum?

steamengine · 23-05-2014 7:56pm

One wonders is this how the term 'cashstrapped' came about ?

Mark IVs

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