Website Designers who just use Joomla/Wordpress

Cróga · 27-06-2009 3:12am #1

Hi, i've a few years experience with Wordpress and Joomla but im still relatively new to web designing (studying software programming in college). I want to get into the web designing business and make a few bucks out of it. Today i checked out the websites of other web designers who advertised in my local paper, to get a feel for the competition. Surprisingly i found all of them just use wordpress or joomla and slap on a free template with its original source removed. Some of these guys are charging 300+ for their services - to do something which only takes a half an hour. Is this normal? Are there any real web designers/coders out there who write their own code and make a website design from scratch?

The reason why I was put off setting up a website business for so long was because of my lack of skills in photoshop. I dont want to let a client down with a site that doesnt look good. Im just shocked to see that people are doing this and getting away with those kind of prices! If thats the case i could have been doing this a long time ago.

I would also like to hear what you guys make out of this? Is it right or wrong? Is this the norm these days? cheers

Chardee MacDennis · 27-06-2009 11:38am

Croga wrote: »

Are there any real web designers/coders out there who write their own code and make a website design from scratch?

of course there are....

smemon · 27-06-2009 12:21pm

Anyone who codes & designs a client project from scratch (no templates, no frameworks, nothing) is either lying or most likely getting well paid.

The reality is everyone has tools and tricks to speed up the process. Depending on theme licences, it's perfectly legit to remove source code. If the client knows about it & agrees to it, it's not a problem.

If on the other hand you download a pirated 'premium' template, remove footer links, change the logo & call it your own without telling anyone, well that's another story.

I find that if people come to me, they're looking for something cheap (as i'm a student)... they don't have massive budgets - if they did they wouldn't be coming my way! They hear about wordpress / joomla etc... and know they're free so they know that keeps costs down. They've also *probably* heard how much i've charged someone else so they know what to expect in terms of a quote and what standard of work to expect.

The problem arises if a client wants something custom coded or custom designed and you can't do either... then the guys you're talking about are pretty screwed

Know xhtml, know css, know php and learn how to use photoshop and you're flying. You don't need to be able to code from scratch, you need to be able to understand code if/when you need to mess about with it.

You also need to understand server stuff as well. ftp, shell, permissions etc... that's pretty essential if you're building websites too.

€300 is not a lot for lets say a custom design, coding, installation, hosting, training etc... it's certainly not a 30 minute job either

If it's for a FREE template & open source software though it's tad expensive :P

Hydrosylator · 27-06-2009 9:45pm

It's a case of the right tool for the right job, really. Most important is to let the client know which parts of the site came pre-built and which parts didn't.

If you charge someone to build every bit of a big fancy website and then use an open source CMS, that could be a breach of contract. I myself don't usually use contracts, but I do value my reputation.

For smaller sites, I'll usually use my own code. For a big massive database-driven site, it's usually better all round to use an existing CMS, rather than building it from the ground up. However sometimes they just don't cut the mustard, and you have to make something unique. That's when knowing what you're doing comes in handy.

Even if you write every website you do, you'll always end up re-using chunks of your old php code, it just makes sense. If it works and you know it works, you won't write it twice. Personally, I find this preferable to always using a CMS, because I know what everything does, and when I'm adding new functionality, I can do it without breaking the whole site.

The thing about using free templates all the time is that you can't really put them in your portfolio in case you get stung.
Another thing is that the really good design jobs (long-running, well paid) are usually for companies who can spot a cowboy a mile away. Well, you know, unless it's a government website. Template jockeys can only ever be template jockeys.

One **** thing about using CMS's though, modules can be an absolute pain. They're usually a godsend, but I've had experiences where the additional functionality a client wanted added to an open source didn't exist in an add-on, anywhere. When that happens you're talking about either telling a client, "I don't know how to do that" (never say this), spending way too much time figuring out how the whole thing works so you can write a custom component, or starting from scratch.

But yeah, use free stuff to make sites as long as you're honest about it, but don't expect to progress very far if that's all you do.

Scotty # · 28-06-2009 1:14am

I'm a Joomla 'hobbyist' who has just recently started doing commercial work. I've been playing around with Joomla for about two years but work in a completely non related profession. A work colleague of mine recently had a site made and was bragging to me how great it was. I had a look and immediately saw it was Joomla & Virtuemart with a pirated Joomlart template. I nearly fell over when he told me how much he paid... €14,500! I didn't tell him it was Open-Source.

So I thought to myself hey... I can do that. 3 or 4 jobs a year like that is a good living. Working from home, own hours, etc etc. I just finished my first commercial site, a property site for Bulgaria (in English), using Joomla and integrating Open-Realty (Open-Source) and I charged €2,000. I would have charged 6-8K if the customer was Irish.

I don't think I'm doing anything unfair or immoral. The client got everything he asked for and was delighted with the finished product. He was quoted up to €10K for the job. Yes, anyone can go and download Joomla and throw up a basic website but there is a lot more to it than just that. You're charging for design (I always change templates from the originals), customisation, implementation, experience and expertise.

Clients really don't care how you make the site once they get everything they want and within their budget.

lucideer · 28-06-2009 9:26am

smemon wrote: »

Anyone who codes & designs a client project from scratch (no templates, no frameworks, nothing) is either lying or most likely getting well paid.

As someone who has designed a few client projects from scratch, all I can say is: "I wish"

smemon wrote: »

The reality is everyone has tools and tricks to speed up the process.

True, but most good developers use either self developed tools or at the very least tools they have a working knowledge of (internals wise)

smemon wrote: »

Depending on theme licences, it's perfectly legit to remove source code.

I believe the OP was referring to the removal of the source of the work - i.e. hiding where you got the code from (removal of licence) which is most certainly illegal and should be reported.

smemon wrote: »

If the client knows about it & agrees to it, it's not a problem.

Oh the client doesn't need to know about it. The original author however does, and the licence should be available should the client ever care to look for it.

littlegreenman · 28-06-2009 1:20pm

I've done a few blogs and CMS in our time, and there is not a huge amount of money in it (enough to pay the bills though). I find the real money is in the bespoke programming.

I outsource my Designs for Wordpress as I wouldn't be able to pay a local designer to design and split and then be in a position to sell the product. There can be a lot of work in design - you must remember that the client can come back a few times before s/he is fully satisfied. It also goes down to the quality of the design as well (montenotte.ie). There are other expenses other than design, software and advertising costs can chew into it.

I'd suggest if you are going down the road to make a living out of the Internet, have strong programming skills. Most work can be outsourced (but programming tends to stay at home).

Regards

Fr Martin · 28-06-2009 1:32pm

That site montenotte.ie looks terrible - I hope you meant as an example of how not to use wordpress - plus the banner is really poorly done.

I always use wordpress but I never keep any of the wordpress design - as in blog or search bar, The fact is if you understand PHP and CSS and can build a website from scratch, then you can design the site properly using wordpress but now have a stable backend.

We were told in college don't try reinvent the wheel but you still need to understand it to properly edit it.

littlegreenman · 28-06-2009 1:50pm

I liked that design. More importantly the customer liked it exactly like that. Apart from yourself, I haven't had any negative feedback. As mentioned, at the end of the day its the customer who is paying, and they must be satisified.

Point of the thread was (an Fr Martin will laugh) I'm not a designer I'm a coder, but you don't have to be a designer to get the job done! In this instance there was a little money to be made by outsourcing the design to professionals and delivering on the customers expectations.

Fr Martin · 28-06-2009 2:16pm

Ok, well I really think you should learn more about editing wordpress and not just using its dashboard, you should learn how to edit the actual PHP and CSS pages and change its look to what you exactely want.

I'm going to go through a list of what I find wrong with that site and this is constructive criticism so please take as that and not a dig at you.

Firstly you say your a designer but why does a website for a hotel have a banner with pictures of hurlers and a church randomly (and badly) photoshopped in? First thing I taught when I seen it was that it was a GAA site or something, and have a good look at how that church is imposed on it? can you honestly say that it looks good.

Your navigation is all over the shop, maybe the site isnt finished but you use the categories widget for navigation, but then further down you do have a seperate page widget for navigation too. even the placement of the widgets is unbalanced (the left and right side).Why not just use a navigation bar at the top?

In all the site doesnt look like a hotel site, Im not trying to claim to be an expert but knowing how to manipulate wordpress is really the key to creating good sites.

littlegreenman · 28-06-2009 2:46pm

Friendly criticism always welcome. I don't want to go to off topic on this thread as its not fair on the thread owner. But firstly I mentioned I wasn't a designer, that I was a coder.

The initial brief was that the hotel in quesitoned supplied the photographs and insisted these photographs be in the header, and the hotel photo in the middle. What the designer's done in my opinion was very good.

The design was built and integrated into Wordpress, whereby the hotel added the categories and navigation etc. From their initial brief, the site is not supposed to be a hotel site. Its supposed to (unless they've changed their minds) communicate various events in their region. I presume they will be dropping in a couple of offers on some of their posts and may get some bookings that way ... (U2 plays in Cork ... at the bottom could be ... great hotel rate ... that type of thing)

I agree that knowing how to edit wordpress is essential, like in any software. But the default layout from Wordpress is also sufficent most of the time. If a layout needs changing that's not a problem, I don't need to learn it as suggested, I know it. The point is whether it warrents changing. In this instance it wasn't required by the customer or by myself.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread

ocallagh · 28-06-2009 5:44pm

smemon wrote: »

Anyone who codes & designs a client project from scratch (no templates, no frameworks, nothing) is either lying or most likely getting well paid.

Anyone who relies on templates and frameworks is not a proper developer/designer IMO. A proper developer should be able to build custom solutions right from scratch, and many do. Aside from using the Mochikit JS library most of my sites are built from scratch with a new PHP Project in Eclipse and The GIMP 2. I would use EE if it's a simple CMS system, and perhaps Joomla if the client wanted a shopping cart done asap but trying to fit a complex web app into a framework is sometimes not the best approach, a custom system can provide the client with a much much faster and easily maintained product provided it is built the right way and has proper documentation.

Hydrosylator · 28-06-2009 7:53pm

ocallagh wrote: »

Anyone who relies on templates and frameworks is not a proper developer/designer IMO. A proper developer should be able to build custom solutions right from scratch, and many do. Aside from using the Mochikit JS library most of my sites are built from scratch with a new PHP Project in Eclipse and The GIMP 2. I would use EE if it's a simple CMS system, and perhaps Joomla if the client wanted a shopping cart done asap but trying to fit a complex web app into a framework is sometimes not the best approach, a custom system can provide the client with a much much faster and easily maintained product provided it is built the right way and has proper documentation.

Yep, that's more or less exactly the way I've found it.
Self sufficiency is important, especially when things break.

Scotty # · 28-06-2009 9:31pm

Before i checked out other web designers i was working out how much i'll charge clients and i worked it out at say 60/70 for a wordpress blog with hosting and domain (maybe make profit of 30/40)

At €40 profit per install you're sure going to have to install a lot of sites to make a living! Why not do a good job on a nice custom design and charge €300-400 for something unique? Most template clubs will install Joomla and their template for about $40 anyway.

Fr Martin · 28-06-2009 11:29pm

Scotty # wrote: »

At €40 profit per install you're sure going to have to install a lot of sites to make a living! Why not do a good job on a nice custom design and charge €300-400 for something unique? Most template clubs will install Joomla and their template for about $40 anyway.

Ye, I find most of the work really to be filling the site with the content the client wants - which tends to include meeting up with them and ages spent on the phone convincing them what they should and shouldn't have on - the other main work is the design of it, to make sure it looks good - thats what their paying for - don't underestimate your work, its skilled.

Scotty # · 28-06-2009 11:29pm

Came across this article this evening... may be of interest.

http://www.alledia.com/blog/joomla-sites/british-telecom-rolling-out-joomla-to-customers/

TheHoban · 29-06-2009 1:59am

Scotty # wrote: »

Came across this article this evening... may be of interest.

http://www.alledia.com/blog/joomla-sites/british-telecom-rolling-out-joomla-to-customers/

Well I'm guessing it saves them time having to constantly update clients websites and deal with 'how do I' support requests.

lucideer · 29-06-2009 5:52pm

ocallagh wrote: »

Anyone who relies on templates and frameworks is not a proper developer/designer IMO.

Templates/CMSes yes. I'm not sure about framework however. I've never deployed one for a client, but it's something I'm considering. It seems they are as advertised, merely frameworks and require a lot of developer expertise and coding components that fit into the framework from scratch - they're simply a method of structuring and ordering an application that you essentially write yourself.

I don't speak from experience though, that's merely my interpretation of what frameworks seem to be.

ocallagh · 29-06-2009 6:52pm

lucideer wrote: »

Templates/CMSes yes. I'm not sure about framework however. I've never deployed one for a client, but it's something I'm considering. It seems they are as advertised, merely frameworks and require a lot of developer expertise and coding components that fit into the framework from scratch - they're simply a method of structuring and ordering an application that you essentially write yourself.

I don't speak from experience though, that's merely my interpretation of what frameworks seem to be.

You'd be surprised at how far frameworks go to remove the developer from actual coding. I was also under the impression that PHP frameworks were simply a standard architecture but recently I tried out 6 of the more popular ones. Given a small bit of perserverance someone with minimal html/php knowledge could churn out a fairly complex web application without really knowing what's going on. Some of the frameworks provide you with a command line tool to actually create the tables, SQL, classes etc. One just needs to install a few components and a template and they're away. I think framework is probably the wrong word to use for the likes of Zend, Cake etc.

tomED · 30-06-2009 10:39am

smemon wrote: »

Anyone who codes & designs a client project from scratch (no templates, no frameworks, nothing) is either lying or most likely getting well paid.

Completely untrue. In the world of bespoke web development it's even hard to reuse your own catalogue of code at times.

It's dog eat dog out there too, so getting well paid isn't something that happens very often either!

ocallagh wrote: »

Anyone who relies on templates and frameworks is not a proper developer/designer IMO. A proper developer should be able to build custom solutions right from scratch, and many do.

Relying on a framework is different than "using" one. I know a lot of top quality developers who wouldn't want to work with anything else than some form of framework - why? Because it speeds up their job immensely. It allows them to develop applications in a fraction of the time it would to develop from scratch.

This doesn't make them any less a developer - but then again - they wouldn't "rely" on one to build an application. It's purely choice.

ocallagh wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how far frameworks go to remove the developer from actual coding. Given a small bit of perserverance someone with minimal html/php knowledge could churn out a fairly complex web application without really knowing what's going on.

But that's the beauty of frameworks - leaving newbies aside - for someone that really understands the ins and outs of how the framework and code behind it works, it's a god sent in a lot of cases. Granted in some cases that they can become a little too restrictive.

I've seen a few who touted Ruby on Rails for example, now give up on it for more complex applications because they felt it was too restrictive.

To the OP, I don't see anything wrong with providing a service like that at those prices once you are completely transparent to the client as to what they are actually getting.

ocallagh · 30-06-2009 12:51pm

good post, tomEd - that's the compromise this thread needed!

NickNolte · 01-07-2009 5:24am

ocallagh wrote: »

Anyone who relies on templates and frameworks is not a proper developer/designer IMO.

Rails is a framework. .NET is a framework. The best Web developers in the world use frameworks to be honest.

lucideer · 01-07-2009 6:27am

Hrmmm... while I was defending frameworks above, putting "the best web developers" and ".NET" in the same sentence is just about the silliest thing one can do. ASP.NET sites are without doubt the WORST made on the web.

NickNolte · 01-07-2009 6:35am

lucideer wrote: »

Hrmmm... while I was defending frameworks above, putting "the best web developers" and ".NET" in the same sentence is just about the silliest thing one can do. ASP.NET sites are without doubt the WORST made on the web.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Granted I know that ASP.NET (which I don't use myself) makes a dogs dinner out of CSS and has a few other foibles but it's hardly the mark of a good or bad developer. Some of the brightest developers I know are .NET developers.

Placebo · 01-07-2009 9:30am

Joomla is terrible and
wordpress is for blogs.

I've worked with both, I had to offer a site with article features, updated seasonly, so i had to go with wordpress, i had to read a good bit of the wordpress api to meet the customers unique specs, all in all i took a 3 column basic theme and edited it to bits.

for a simple website, i would find it easier to make it from scratch. Rather than having to edit wordpress, messy.

lucideer · 01-07-2009 9:35am

NickNolte wrote: »

I know that ASP.NET (which I don't use myself) makes a dogs dinner out of CSS and has a few other foibles but it's hardly the mark of a good or bad developer. Some of the brightest developers I know are .NET developers.

The mark of a good developer comes not only from their technical expertise and prowess Nick, but also from their ability to distinguish good, useful development tools from "a dogs dinner" as you put it. ASP.NET developers have failed this second test.

MOH · 01-07-2009 10:26am

lucideer wrote: »

The mark of a good developer comes not only from their technical expertise and prowess Nick, but also from their ability to distinguish good, useful development tools from "a dogs dinner" as you put it. ASP.NET developers have failed this second test.

Because of course everyone in every job is free to choose whatever development tools they want

lucideer · 01-07-2009 11:54am

MOH wrote: »

Because of course everyone in every job is free to choose whatever development tools they want

Absolutely.A plumber is free to choose to use sellotape to connect gas-pipe joints - that doesn't preclude me from saying he is a bad plumber, even if he does a better job of it than any other plumber could possibly do, even if his plumbing skills are superior - he is a bad plumber.

ocallagh · 01-07-2009 12:25pm

NickNolte wrote: »

Rails is a framework. .NET is a framework. The best Web developers in the world use frameworks to be honest.

The term framework has now lost all meaning to me. Wordpress is a framework to some people, .NET is a framework how can the two be comparable? I am talking about frameworks such as Zend and Cake which IMO are fine for some jobs but not for others as tomEd pointed out.

I can't argue that the best developers don't use frameworks if the term framework = Rails or .NET (although I would add the word 'some' in to your broad sweeping statement). To be honest, your definition of framework sits a little better with me. I'd prefer to call .NET and Rails a framework and call the likes of Code Ignitor or Cake something else. But in the context of this thread (of which I assume your reply was) I think you have made a fairly moot point.

Sully · 01-07-2009 12:54pm

What do you expect from someone who offers design at €300+! 9/10 they have no experience, no quality design and are just out to make a quick buck. Setup Joomla/WordPress with a skin thats already out there. There are plenty out there who do similar, but create the design for the system themselves and integrate it - which is probably suitable for budget websites.

The somewhat more mainstream create the design themselves and the back-end themselves. I offer both this and WordPress/Joomla solutions (this more so lately to help those on a budget or who require a complex CMS system which our own doesn't cover).

NickNolte · 03-07-2009 9:25pm

lucideer wrote: »

The mark of a good developer comes not only from their technical expertise and prowess Nick, but also from their ability to distinguish good, useful development tools from "a dogs dinner" as you put it. ASP.NET developers have failed this second test.

I don't like .NET myself. All I'm saying is that I know some s**t hot developers who happen to develop with .NET. For most intents and purposes, .NET's pretty good. I prefer Rails myself but each to their own. Silly argument.

The term framework has now lost all meaning to me. Wordpress is a framework to some people

WordPress isn't a framework.

Website Designers who just use Joomla/Wordpress

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