Great games, unwelcome legacies

johnny_ultimate · 04-05-2014 12:47pm #1

Sometimes there's a game that does something fresh and innovative, and earns both critical and player acclaim as a result. It adds something new to an existing formula, or hits on a new one entirely, and feels like a breath of fresh air. However, a few years later, that very same innovation becomes a cliche or trope as other games copy and abuse what was once an excellent idea. In worst case scenarios, it can even lead to us looking back at the original game a little less favourably. Some examples:

Resident Evil 4 / Shenmue and the QTE: These games didn't invent the quick time event, but they reclaimed a largely forgotten design relic to smartly to augment the action and provide moments of variety and more cinematic action. Alas, the QTE soon became overprevalent, used as a replacement for actual gameplay. Games like Asura's Wrath and Heavy Rain have taken the concept to frankly ridiculous degrees, unashamedly substituting actual gameplay for occasional button prompts.

Call of Duty 4 and online leveling: I'm not sure if CoD4 was the first FPS to have an 'RPG' type system for online, but it certainly perfected and popularised the idea: adding a vast metagame to make all those online hours feel a little bit more focused. Alas, now it has become almost standard, and rare is the game that allows you to drop in for a quick match without being bombarded by a persistent leveling system, perks and unlocks. It's almost as if casual play is punished!

Bioshock and audio logs: again, not the first game to feature audio log (indeed, System Shock 2 had them), but since Bioshock particularly the idea of diaries scattered around gameworlds has been used in dozens of titles. In Bioshock, it was novel: an intriguing way of filling in chunks of backstory without completely pulling the player out of the game (nothing immersion breaking like opening a menu to read a text document!). Abuse of the concept in subsequent games, however, has only highlighted the inherent contrived nature of the idea, and a little bit ironically finding perfectly maintained audio logs randomly scattered around the place can have the effect of actually shattering immersion rather than maintaining it.

Anyone else have any games where a seemingly great idea has led to a very unwelcome legacy?

gizmo · 04-05-2014 1:16pm

Gears of War: Like the above, it didn't invent the chest high wall / cover-based shooter mechanic (that'd be Kill.Switch if memory serves me correctly) but my god, ever since then it's permeated game design to a staggering degree. It most certainly wasn't helped by the functionality being built into UE3, ripe for other devs to use, of course.

Not only has it led to lazier level design across many titles but it also combined rather horribly with the regenerating health mechanic to slow gameplay down to a crawl. Now, don't get me wrong, I think it's great that player characters can now take cover and shoot effectively using the environment but the over reliance on it is what has led to it becoming an issue. The exceptions are what show this, imo, with games like Vanquish and Max Payne 3 proving that cover can be used as a brief respite (it helps when it's destructible) and when combined with interesting design in other areas, can ensure there is an incentive to push forward.

gugleguy · 04-05-2014 1:28pm

The case with Shenmue is a prime example of the game creator putting all their eggs in one basket. Shenmue 2 cost 600 million to make. Sega has'nt made a successor of the Dreamcast. In any case if Rhyo haszuki were a real person I would'nt have that much sympathy for him. Actually, he ended up being used in a motorcycle racing game alongside sonic the hedgehog as a racing opponent that Sega later brought out, so he got his just deserts anyway.

krudler · 04-05-2014 2:06pm

Arkham Asylum used audio logs in a good way, really added to the atmosphere

Mickeroo · 04-05-2014 2:08pm

Whichever game started the tradition of having pointless collectibles, oh and race against the clock type side missions too.

ancapailldorcha · 04-05-2014 2:28pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Whichever game started the tradition of having pointless collectibles, oh and race against the clock type side missions too.

GTA3 is at least partly responsible for the former I should think. You did get weapons for collecting sets of 10 packages in fairness.

snausages · 04-05-2014 2:50pm

Halo and regen health.

chrislad · 04-05-2014 3:45pm

snausages wrote: »

Halo and regen health.

I don't think Halo had regen health. It had two bars, one health, one shield. Health didn't regen, shield did. I do think it changed with Halo 2 though, but I could be wrong.

Mickeroo · 04-05-2014 3:47pm

chrislad wrote: »

I don't think Halo had regen health. It had two bars, one health, one shield. Health didn't regen, shield did. I do think it changed with Halo 2 though, but I could be wrong.

No it's still just shield that regenerates.

snausages · 04-05-2014 4:14pm

Fundamentally the same thing.

Grimebox · 04-05-2014 4:25pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

....

Bioshock and audio logs: again, not the first game to feature audio log (indeed, System Shock 2 had them), but since Bioshock particularly the idea of diaries scattered around gameworlds has been used in dozens of titles. In Bioshock, it was novel: an intriguing way of filling in chunks of backstory without completely pulling the player out of the game (nothing immersion breaking like opening a menu to read a text document!). Abuse of the concept in subsequent games, however, has only highlighted the inherent contrived nature of the idea, and a little bit ironically finding perfectly maintained audio logs randomly scattered around the place can have the effect of actually shattering immersion rather than maintaining it.

...

The South Park game absolutely nailed this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWXy_wFVHCY

snausages · 04-05-2014 4:31pm

DOOM 3 and FEAR made ample use of audio logs as well.

Retr0gamer · 04-05-2014 4:36pm

Yeah I don't feel bioshock really popularised audio logs. They were in tonnes of PC games before it. System shock 2 would be the game that left that legacy. Bioshock might have been one of the first to do it on console but they were tonnes of PC games before it.

degrassinoel · 04-05-2014 5:35pm

system shock..

or at least system shock 2 did, i can barely remember the first one at all, also fallout and fallout 2 definitely had audio logs -they were hard to find but really cool at the time too

Retr0gamer · 04-05-2014 5:37pm

Actually System shock 1 definitely did have them, I played it recently. However I didn't really see audio logs taking off until after System shock 2.

Potatoeman · 04-05-2014 5:46pm

Audiologs can be skipped and most of the examples have been in games where you dont have anyone that can just exlain things in game.

Now QTE are a different story and pointless too. Hated them with a passion in Far Cry 3.

Grimebox · 04-05-2014 5:53pm

Audiologs are absolutely brilliant imo. I can't think of a game that has done them badly. They are non intrusive yet massively add to the immersion. I get impatient very quickly with single players games so I much prefer that you can continue forward and listen at the same time, rather than a cut scene forcing you to watch.

CiDeRmAn · 04-05-2014 5:56pm

Tank controls.
F'ing tank controls.
We all ignored the control issues in the original Tomb Raider, on the Saturn and PC, later to the PS, and thought the main character was the epitome of feminine grace and athleticism, great stuff.
But boy oh boy did that control system get really really old really really fast.
How long was it before they ditched the infernal things in the Tomb Raider series?
As the saying goes, there's an adventurer that literally handles like a tank while an overweight plumber in dungarees handles like a ballerina on speed.

FMV as well, another one.
I think it was cool once, maybe twice, in Dragons Lair and Space Ace, maybe later in the Rebel Assault games, but only because this was pre Stars Wars return to the big screen and we were all desperate to see some newly filmed official material.
Since then?
Pants, the lot of it.
Maybe that's too harsh, certainly pants to those who use it for extended periods of the game for exposition instead of telling the story within the game engine, and what should be dragged out and shot are the games that used FMV with the player having nominal control of a badly rendered sprite in the foreground, Sewer Shark, Microcosm, Megarace, so many awful awful games!

Reekwind · 04-05-2014 9:04pm

Perhaps a controversial one here. Half-Life was one of the most innovative games of the past two decades; a revolution that transformed FPSs from 'wandering around collecting keys' to a narrative triumph that used the odd scripted moment and fantastic set-piece to illuminate the game's great design, levels and AI.

Unfortunately, some people took the above recipe, removed everything but 'scripted' and 'set-pieces' and produced the military corridor shooter. Now scripted movements aren't there to light up a crawl through a ceiling vent or add a touch of character to a scene; they are the reason the game exists. Now you're stuck on rails and simply wander from spectacular scripted event to spectacular scripted event.

I love Half-Life to bits but it did an awful lot to legitimise putting games on rails. The infamous picture below could almost be labelled 'pre-HL' and 'post-HL'

Grimebox wrote: »

Audiologs are absolutely brilliant imo. I can't think of a game that has done them badly

Try Bioshock Infinite. They're also horrendously overused in most RPGs - I'm convinced that a leading cause of death for adventurers is their need to stop and document every last development in scattered journals, all so that later parties (ie you) can stumble across them and put their ramblings to use in opening some chest/door/portal.

Grimebox · 04-05-2014 9:11pm

Reekwind wrote: »

Try Bioshock Infinite. They're also horrendously overused in most RPGs - I'm convinced that a leading cause of death for adventurers is their need to stop and document every last development in scattered journals, all so that later parties (ie you) can stumble across them and put their ramblings to use in opening some chest/door/portal.

I found that whole game horrendous so I'll agree with you there

beauf · 04-05-2014 9:48pm

Reekwind wrote: »

....I love Half-Life to bits but it did an awful lot to legitimise putting games on rails. The infamous picture below could almost be labelled 'pre-HL' and 'post-HL'....

I don't think that entirely accurate. There was a lot of games on rails prior to that. There were a whole load when CDROM first appeared. The infamous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Rebel_Assault

In truth a lot of games were effectively scripted missions where no matter what you did the end result of the level was always the same. Look at all the MOH and COD games. I'm not sure of they invented it, but that whole thing where you'd clear a level, then go back and they'd all re-appear. Urggggghhh.

If you compare them to something like Operation Flashpoint. Or something like the truly single player dynamic campaign in Falcon 4.

The success of Doom, then HL really started Multiplayer and I don't think Single player has ever had the same attention since.

Reekwind · 04-05-2014 10:03pm

beauf wrote: »

I don't think that entirely accurate. There was a lot of games on rails prior to that. There were a whole load when CDROM first appeared

Yeah but the likes of Rebel Assault were almost literally on rails - more shooting gallery than FPS. I wouldn't consider them to be part of the FPS genus in any real sense

beauf · 04-05-2014 10:19pm

TBH most FPS were all the same with the very odd exception.

Another thing that happened was this idea of small maps in HL. Very few games got away from that. Even COD4 was very small maps wise. When you come from Delta Force, and the Novalogic Voxel Lanscapes. Not many played these but in MP the scale was fantastic. It meant that sniper had real impact in a MP game. You really had to flank them.

A feature I never like in the cod game was unrealistic weapons, where a UZI and a scope could snipe and have the fire rate of a Chain gun.

Retr0gamer · 04-05-2014 10:21pm

Whatever game popularised codex for telling it's backstory. I'm going to name check Mass Effect here but it was probably something before that. I enjoyed Mass Effect but my god the codex were a load of old arse. All that nonsense was not needed. The world wasn't that complex that they couldn't tell the important stuff in game. The universe wasn't that interesting, it just being a sci-fi reskin of the fantasy genre mono myth. I'm seeing it in lots of games now and it's not welcome in any of them. If you need to flesh out your universe with a info bomb text dump encyclopedia then you are just a **** writer.

The worst offender was FFXIII. All that information about a world I didn't care about and I was none the wiser about after reading.

Actually maybe it was JRR Tolkien that should get the blame for this with the Appendices in Lord of the Rings.

Reekwind · 04-05-2014 10:44pm

beauf wrote: »

TBH most FPS were all the same with the very odd exception

I'd disagree with that. Think of the pre-HL FPS games and the map design tended to be more on the side of sprawling. Contrast the major names - and I'm thinking of Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Hexen, Heretic, Duke Nukem, Future Shock, Dark Forces, Blood, Outlaws, etc - with HL and the difference is obvious.

Now none of these were sandbox games, and that's not what I'm suggesting, but their levels were designed to be roamed around at will. Scripting was generally limited to a wall opening to reveal a handful of demons, nothing like a resonance cascade. You had this big labyrinth/arena in which you killed monsters, collected keys and opened doors. That was generally it.

I'd wager that more narrative thought went into the first ten minutes of HL than most of the above games put together. The small flourishes and scripted moments in that introduction sequence (when you were literally on rails) were amazing for the game's time.

Baked.noodle · 04-05-2014 10:51pm

Not sure which game did it first (might be Halo), but regenerative health sucks most of the time.

Oh and space games with jump gates. Boring boxes that brake up the immersion.

beauf · 04-05-2014 10:57pm

In my mind, Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, Dark Forces were all the same really. As was Hexen, Heretic. One of them was slightly different it had some sort of hub idea going with the levels. I'll give Duke Nukem a bit of credit for having some funny moments SP and MP. Dark Forces had a decent SW vibe. Wasn't there another one with sticky bombs, rise of the triads or something?

I take your point about the corridor shooter vs the above games. But its slim difference as you didn't really have much choice in how to complete the levels. Unlike Flashpoint where you could do something a completely odd way. Like run in the wrong direction, steal a car and drive around the battle, you probably were meant to fight your way through.

Retr0gamer · 04-05-2014 10:58pm

For the well designed games there was a flow and pace to them that you don't get in newer FPS games. It's why level designers were so highly praised back then because if your levels were imaginative or flowed well then the game pretty much sucked. For instance compare something like blood to absolute muck like Red Neck Rampage.

These days there's no level design at all in most games. They are just corridors that enemies occasionally pop out of. I think Half Life on the other hand is different since it has set pieces and each set piece is different from the last with most being smaller well designed areas rather than a straight up corridor run. Lesser developers just don't get that.

beauf · 04-05-2014 11:26pm

The level in HL when you meat the marines, while a corridor was brilliant, as the marines had a bit of intelligence about them. They would try to flank and pin you down.

5uspect · 04-05-2014 11:40pm

Bleeding out of your eyes in FPS games as part of regen health, COD3 was the first I remember doing that.

Drawn out tutorials as the game intro - taken to an extreme in AssCreed3. It was clever in the first game, why bother in sequels when they had VR style missions?

QTEs, ugh.

Here's a more controversial one. Boss battles. So many recent otherwise solid games have had piss poor boss battles for the sole reason that games apparently need boss battles. Deus Ex:HR, Arkham Asylum immediately spring to mind.

crybaby · 05-05-2014 7:24am

i really dislike this trend of levelling in online FPS games, what I loved so much about Quake 2 is that you could jump into a game and it was a simply a case of who was better than who at playing the thing.

I see my son playing team fortress 2 these days and he seems more obsessed with the items than the actual gameplay

snausages · 05-05-2014 2:45pm

5uspect wrote: »

Here's a more controversial one. Boss battles. So many recent otherwise solid games have had piss poor boss battles for the sole reason that games apparently need boss battles. Deus Ex:HR, Arkham Asylum immediately spring to mind.

On the other hand, games like Metal Gear Rising and Bayonetta elevate the boss battle to an artform. Dark Souls too.

snausages · 05-05-2014 2:48pm

Fighting Sam in MGR as a piss off of the gunfight at OK Corall is honestly one of this generations highlights for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9odEW41JO8

Pity that Revengeance mode ruins it with its epic damage parrys

Retr0gamer · 05-05-2014 2:49pm

I love boss battles but only a few developers can do them properly. In something like dues ex they just don't fit the game so why bother with them?

Captain Chaos · 05-05-2014 3:32pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I love boss battles but only a few developers can do them properly. In something like dues ex they just don't fit the game so why bother with them?

The great thing in the first Dues Ex was that you could completely avoid the boss battles depending how you played the game and bothered to explore and find hidden information. Nice touches that you just don't get anymore.

sarumite · 05-05-2014 3:44pm

5uspect wrote: »

Here's a more controversial one. Boss battles. So many recent otherwise solid games have had piss poor boss battles for the sole reason that games apparently need boss battles. Deus Ex:HR, Arkham Asylum immediately spring to mind.

I don't mind certain boss battles. They can be good when done well and the break up the repetition of beating up the same goons over and over again. I didn't mind the idea of the boss battles in Batman AA, they were just unimaginative. However I hate them in games that don't need them. The boss at the end of the uncharted games is a prime example of a game that would have done well without it.

5uspect · 05-05-2014 3:59pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I love boss battles but only a few developers can do them properly. In something like dues ex they just don't fit the game so why bother with them?

sarumite wrote: »

I don't mind certain boss battles. They can be good when done well and the break up the repetition of beating up the same goons over and over again. I didn't mind the idea of the boss battles in Batman AA, they were just unimaginative. However I hate them in games that don't need them. The boss at the end of the uncharted games is a prime example of a game that would have done well without it.

Unfortunately most of them are often an annoying grind, with a few exceptions. They are an area ripe for innovation but we get the usual dodge, dodge attack weak spot garbage.

Polar101 · 05-05-2014 4:57pm

Reekwind wrote: »

Try Bioshock Infinite. They're also horrendously overused in most RPGs - I'm convinced that a leading cause of death for adventurers is their need to stop and document every last development in scattered journals, all so that later parties (ie you) can stumble across them and put their ramblings to use in opening some chest/door/portal.

I agree completely. In Bioshock infinite they are particularly irritating, since thanks to the poor controls, every now and then you accidentally hit the button that replays the last audiolog. The logs just feel like a cheap way to add immersion, I don't think they work at all.

CiDeRmAn · 05-05-2014 5:27pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I love boss battles but only a few developers can do them properly. In something like dues ex they just don't fit the game so why bother with them?

Super Metroid, after that boss battles were underwhelming for me

gugleguy · 05-05-2014 7:23pm

In the combat flight sim vein, the success of the il2 franchise led the developers to bring out Wings of Prey, Wings of Steel(pacific theatre) and Wings of Luftwaffe. Wings of Prey had a great opening sequence. After that...well..I'll just say I took it off my pc hard disc soon after. I still continue to play il2 1946 though after so many years. Runs fine on my windows 8.1.

Korvanica · 05-05-2014 7:37pm

I'm not a fan of "Loadouts"

I like shooters where the playing field is level when everyone spawns, and you have to fight over the more powerful weapons. Not knowing what the enemy is bringing to the table is rubbish and really takes away from the skill or beating someone 1v1 when you have different weapons.

Halo 3 was one of the last true Arena style shooters I enjoyed.

dreamers75 · 05-05-2014 11:46pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Call of Duty 4 and online leveling: I'm not sure if CoD4 was the first FPS to have an 'RPG' type system for online, but it certainly perfected and popularised the idea: adding a vast metagame to make all those online hours feel a little bit more focused. Alas, now it has become almost standard, and rare is the game that allows you to drop in for a quick match without being bombarded by a persistent leveling system, perks and unlocks. It's almost as if casual play is punished!

Battlefield 2 had it 1st in the sense you unlocked weapons, which I like in fairness. It rewards you for playing and I like guns.

cloud493 · 05-05-2014 11:53pm

Pokemon gold and silver. Gave everyone the idea multi region pokemon games should be in every generation. Thankfully they only did it once so far.

Akrasia · 06-05-2014 11:31am

Character development in racing games. Just let me drive the cars I want, on the tracks I feckin paid for

I think it was Codemasters 'Race Driver' that introduced this. Before Race Driver, we had the TOCA touring car series where you picked a team and an event and tried to do as well as you could.

Then the TOCA brand was retired and replaced with 'Race Driver' where you had to pretend to be a young race driver building a career and reputation with other characters like your manager and rival drivers.

In the first game it wasn't too intrusive (I usually skipped the cut scenes) but lately it's gotten ridiculous. Entire classes and events are locked out until your driver gets enough career points to unlock them. Bullsh1t. Don't force me to grind through modes that I don't have any interest in just to unlock the features that I bought the game for.

Dirt 3 is rubbish because of this. I want to do a rally season but I can't because the game is structured around the career of the driver and I couldn't be arsed doing all the rallycross games and skid pans and stunt 'gymkhana' rubbish to get enough points to unlock tracks and cars for normal rally events.

norrie rugger · 06-05-2014 11:41am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Whatever game popularised codex for telling it's backstory. I'm going to name check Mass Effect here but it was probably something before that. I enjoyed Mass Effect but my god the codex were a load of old arse. All that nonsense was not needed. The world wasn't that complex that they couldn't tell the important stuff in game. The universe wasn't that interesting, it just being a sci-fi reskin of the fantasy genre mono myth. I'm seeing it in lots of games now and it's not welcome in any of them. If you need to flesh out your universe with a info bomb text dump encyclopedia then you are just a **** writer.

The worst offender was FFXIII. All that information about a world I didn't care about and I was none the wiser about after reading.

Actually maybe it was JRR Tolkien that should get the blame for this with the Appendices in Lord of the Rings.

except that a lot of the appendices are good stories in their own right

Mickeroo · 06-05-2014 11:44am

Dark Souls fleshes out it's universe by an "info bomb text dump" too but it puts it in the item descriptions instead. I guess it gets away with it by having a more interesting back story.

Retr0gamer · 06-05-2014 12:11pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

except that a lot of the appendices are good stories in their own right

If you mean the badly written stuff in bioware games then I'd have to disagree.

Stone Deaf 4evr · 06-05-2014 12:12pm

Whoever thought of spawn triggers - where enemies keep spawning infinitely until you run past an invisible point.

I remember a particularly bad on in the Original Black Ops - just before frank woods gets blown up with a grenade, that base had a long section before you passed the spawn trigger, I was fit to put the controller through the screen doing it.

beauf · 06-05-2014 12:14pm

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Whoever thought of spawn triggers - where enemies keep spawning infinitely until you run past an invisible point.

I remember a particularly bad on in the Original Black Ops - just before frank woods gets blown up with a grenade, that base had a long section before you passed the spawn trigger, I was fit to put the controller through the screen doing it.

+1

I first noticed it really annoying me in COD games. It was there before but not as bad.

norrie rugger · 06-05-2014 12:30pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

If you mean the badly written stuff in bioware games then I'd have to disagree.

Tolkein lad!!!

janefisher · 06-05-2014 12:38pm

Assassins Creed black flag has alot of pointless collectables that could easily have not been put in the game

Great games, unwelcome legacies

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