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Eastern European Hoardes on The Way

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    #92
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    OK RDM, lets look at the actual concerns, rather than concerns in the abstract. What are they?

    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

    Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

    I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.
    I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

    If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them


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    #93
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

    Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

    I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.
    I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

    If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them

    Do you have any evidence for the bolded? Which communities are you speaking of? Or is ot communities of foreigners in general?


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    #94
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views
    The two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite funny (in a painful way) to hear Sikh immigrants in England bitching about those bloody eastern Europeans coming in and taking their jobs.


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    #95
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Do you have any evidence for the bolded? Which communities are you speaking of? Or is ot communities of foreigners in general?

    The Roma specifically (which makes me sound like an AH refugee), I don't have any evidence to back up this viewpoint from a statistical stand point but its also impossible for me to have this evidence as the CSO doesn't include ethnic group instead recording nationality (which would include Slovakia and Hungary as well as Romania), the Garda also don't release this information and information on prison numbers would be misleading as this low level criminality/anti-social behaviour doesn't result in custodial sentences.

    Its based on personal observation having lived in North Dublin city and while it is unfair to stigmatise an entire ethnic group of a few Roma numbers in Ireland are actually quiet small (in the region of 3000) so having such a visible level of anti-social behaviour does indicate a serious problem in the community that should not be ignored due to concerns about political correctness. A continuing official blindness to this issue simply results in a hardening of attitudes in the general population and in time may allow groups to gain political clout by advocating draconian measures (and these measures may become implemented if a political party sees the advantage of playing to prejudice as has been the case in Europe). If there is a pro-active response now both the Roma community in Ireland and wider Irish society would benefit rather than letting a situation develop like it has in mainland europe.

    I actually have considerable sympathy for the Roma as they are treated like dirt in countries like Hungary but the attitudes in Ireland are not the result of some historic racist folk memory they are the result of a highly visible anti-social element in a very recent community.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite funny (in a painful way) to hear Sikh immigrants in England bitching about those bloody eastern Europeans coming in and taking their jobs.

    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern, and actually an accurate one at that as previous immigrants are actually those most impacted negatively by an increased number of new immigrants (Migration Observatory associated with Oxford mentions this so its not a hypothetical)


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    #96
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    So you say
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    But you have NO proof of the claim you make:rolleyes:

    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    The Roma specifically (which makes me sound like an AH refugee), I don't have any evidence to back up this viewpoint from a statistical stand point but its also impossible for me to have this evidence as the CSO doesn't include ethnic group instead recording nationality (which would include Slovakia and Hungary as well as Romania), the Garda also don't release this information and information on prison numbers would be misleading as this low level criminality/anti-social behaviour doesn't result in custodial sentences.

    Its based on personal observation having lived in North Dublin city and while it is unfair to stigmatise an entire ethnic group of a few Roma numbers in Ireland are actually quiet small (in the region of 3000) so having such a visible level of anti-social behaviour does indicate a serious problem in the community that should not be ignored due to concerns about political correctness. A continuing official blindness to this issue simply results in a hardening of attitudes in the general population and in time may allow groups to gain political clout by advocating draconian measures (and these measures may become implemented if a political party sees the advantage of playing to prejudice as has been the case in Europe). If there is a pro-active response now both the Roma community in Ireland and wider Irish society would benefit rather than letting a situation develop like it has in mainland europe.

    I actually have considerable sympathy for the Roma as they are treated like dirt in countries like Hungary but the attitudes in Ireland are not the result of some historic racist folk memory they are the result of a highly visible anti-social element in a very recent community.



    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern, and actually an accurate one at that as previous immigrants are actually those most impacted negatively by an increased number of new immigrants (Migration Observatory associated with Oxford mentions this so its not a hypothetical)

    I have worked in the city center for over 20 years and the MAJORITY of crime i have witnessed has been by Irish people. Or are you saying that the Roma only commit crime in Roma communities and therefore the crime goes unreported?


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    #97
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    There's a charity (!) shop in my local town that had a sign up specifically threatening Roma shoplifters - it has since been removed on Garda advice.


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    #98
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So you say



    But you have NO proof of the claim you make:rolleyes:

    As i said its impossible for me to have proof, I'l challenge you to walk around the O'Connell street area for a few hours though and report back to me though. (and keep in mind the figures I mention below in terms of % population !)
    bumper234 wrote: »
    I have worked in the city center for over 20 years and the MAJORITY of crime i have witnessed has been by Irish people. Or are you saying that the Roma only commit crime in Roma communities and therefore the crime goes unreported?

    FFS of course the majority of crime is by Irish people, lets look at the figures, the population of Dublin is say 1,000,000 the population of Roma in Ireland is 3,000 if every Roma lived in Dublin they would still only make up 0.3% of the population, and I am not talking about all crime I am talking about low level highly visible anti-social behaviour and minor crime.


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    #99
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    As i said its impossible for me to have proof, I'l challenge you to walk around the O'Connell street area for a few hours though and report back to me though. (and keep in mind the figures I mention below in terms of % population !)

    I work in the city center i walk O'Connell street EVERY day, the worse i see from Roma is begging.


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    FFS of course the majority of crime is by Irish people, lets look at the figures, the population of Dublin is say 1,000,000 the population of Roma in Ireland is 3,000 if every Roma lived in Dublin they would still only make up 0.3% of the population, and I am not talking about all crime I am talking about low level highly visible anti-social behaviour and minor crime.

    Please tell me about this highly visible anti social behaviour and minor crime that has you so up in arms about the Roma community.


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    #100
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern...
    Well, no. They're not criticising their compatriot immigrants; they're complaining about immigrants of other ethnicities and nationalities. That makes their concerns xenophobic.


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    #101
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I work in the city center i walk O'Connell street EVERY day, the worse i see from Roma is begging.

    Please tell me about this highly visible anti social behaviour and minor crime that has you so up in arms about the Roma community.

    What is begging, aggressive begging, theft at atms and shoplifting if not highly visible anti-social behavior and minor crime respectively. If not would you enlighten me as to what it is :confused:

    If you honestly think that there is not a serious problem with at least the first two on that list within the Roma community I will ask you a question.

    Taking only the central Dublin population of aprox 500,000, and having an absolute maximum number of Roma as 3000 (and thats the estimate for the entire of Ireland), if there isn't a disproportionate problem you should only encounter a Roma begging or aggressively begging only 6 times out of every 1000 times it occurs.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Well, no. They're not criticising their compatriot immigrants; they're complaining about immigrants of other ethnicities and nationalities. That makes their concerns xenophobic.

    Have you ever asked them how they feel about recent immigrants from India? perhaps they have similar concerns, as you say they are complaining about them taking their jobs and since they will be negatively impacted economically by immigration why not take it at face value?
    Directed at Bumper234 how come you don't have an issue with this post considering as its completely derived of hearsay, at least in my argument I can give a reason why I am unable to source any official statistics as they are completely absent.


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    #102
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    What is begging, aggressive begging, theft at atms and shoplifting if not highly visible anti-social behavior and minor crime respectively. If not would you enlighten me as to what it is :confused:

    If you honestly think that there is not a serious problem with at least the first two on that list within the Roma community I will ask you a question.

    Taking only the central Dublin population of aprox 500,000, and having an absolute maximum number of Roma as 3000 (and thats the estimate for the entire of Ireland), if there isn't a disproportionate problem you should only encounter a Roma begging or aggressively begging only 6 times out of every 1000 times it occurs.



    Have you ever asked them how they feel about recent immigrants from India? perhaps they have similar concerns, as you say they are complaining about them taking their jobs and since they will be negatively impacted economically by immigration why not take it at face value?
    Directed at Bumper234 how come you don't have an issue with this post considering as its completely derived of hearsay, at least in my argument I can give a reason why I am unable to source any official statistics as they are completely absent.

    You mean the beggars go to the area that has the MOST people? They are hardly going to stand outside a refrigeration company on an industrial estate are they? How many people have you seen get robbed at atms? As for shoplifting I know several people from DUBLIN who shoplift to order. I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?) Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.


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    #103
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    They are hardly going to stand outside a refrigeration company on an industrial estate are they? As for shoplifting I know several people from DUBLIN who shoplift to order. I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?) Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.
    bumper234 wrote: »
    You mean the beggars go to the area that has the MOST people?
    Ok how is my logic so hard to understand or are being deliberately obtuse :confused:
    Yes beggars would go to the area with most people, this applies across the board however no matter the ethnic background of the beggar they will beg where there is most footfall, so my point still stands if the Roma are not disproportionately involved in this activity only 6 out of a 1000 occurrences should be with a member of the Roma community.
    Would you please answer that question as too why this clearly isn't the case if as you assert people of Roma background are not disproportionately involved in this activity.
    bumper234 wrote: »
    Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.
    Whats your point? This is a discussion on immigration not social problems to do with addiction. Or are you comparing Roma to "Junkies" (a term considered offensive to many).
    And yes I would agree that they do cause more problems than members of the Roma community, however thats a false analogy as there already is a large range of services that specifically target those with addiction problems and they are widely recognized as being a grouping that cause a social problems.
    bumper234 wrote: »
    I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?)
    bumper234 wrote: »
    but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.
    Could you please stop personalizing this debate or at least provide evidence of what your stating above, you have asked me each time about only the part of my post pertaining to the Roma so I apologies if I have answered your questions on it or would you prefer it if I just ignored your posts?
    How exactly am I screaming for their blood? recognizing that there is problems in that community is not "screaming for blood", have I said anything offensive or inflamitory in my posts, if I have report my posts as if you take a read of the charter there's some pretty strong rules about that here.
    And where have I had an "issue for foreigners"


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    #104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ....I'm not seeing sufficient problems with Roma to justify ending free movement within the EU....


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    #105
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....I'm not seeing sufficient problems with Roma to justify ending free movement within the EU....

    And where exactly have I indicated anything like that being proposed in any of my posts?


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    #106
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    And where exactly have I indicated anything like that being proposed in any of my posts?


    You brought them up as one of your objections.


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    #107
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

    Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

    I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.

    I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.

    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

    If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them

    Well said RDM_83,and it appears that at least one such place is the High Court.......

    http://www.independent.ie/incoming/roma-family-claiming-intimidation-by-neighbourhood-win-high-court-order-on-housing-transfer-29810091.html


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #108
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Well said RDM_83,and it appears that at least one such place is the High Court.......

    http://www.independent.ie/incoming/roma-family-claiming-intimidation-by-neighbourhood-win-high-court-order-on-housing-transfer-29810091.html



    There's obviously some point you're trying to make there, but I can't quite work it out. Please be as good as to explain.


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    #109
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    It's worth noting that the EU is not a democratic institution.


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    #110
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    It's worth noting that the EU is not a democratic institution.

    That'll be news to the voters.


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    #111
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    alastair wrote: »
    That'll be news to the voters.

    The few that still bother voting on EU issues.


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    #112
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    The few that still bother voting on EU issues.

    58% turnout for the last EU elections. Up from the previous two elections.


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    #113
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    bumper234 wrote: »
    This always makes me laugh.

    What about all of those foreign nationals hordes that are swarming to Australia, America and Canada....you know the ones....from Ireland:rolleyes:

    Wow. Didn't know we had freedom of movement with those countries. Thought you needed visas and things like that.

    Also didn't realise that the population of Ireland totally dwarfs America.

    ~

    I don't actually particularly care about the topic of the OP - but this kneejerk method of poopooing peoples' arguments in this sloppy manner is tiresome.

    Incidentally there is a very, very large number of eastern European EU citizens living here, not that I think that that's going to dramatically increase in any way in the near future.


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    #114
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Wow. Didn't know we had freedom of movement with those countries. Thought you needed visas and things like that.

    Also didn't realise that the population of Ireland totally dwarfs America.

    Yup.....No illegal Irish workers there. :rollseyes:

    ~
    I don't actually particularly care about the topic of the OP - but this kneejerk method of poopooing peoples' arguments in this sloppy manner is tiresome.

    Incidentally there is a very, very large number of eastern European EU citizens living here, not that I think that that's going to dramatically increase in any way in the near future.

    I am not poopooing anyone's argument I the least, all I am pointing out is that IF Romanian, Bulgarian or any other European decides to come to this country to find work and make a better life for themeselves then maybe people should take a minute to consider why. These people are doing EXACTLY what the Irish have done for decades, why is it ok for the Irish to travel the world looking for work but when someone else does it then it's a terrible thing?

    Yes I know we are now going to get the whole ZOMG they is only here for our welfarez manies arguments but does anyone really believe they would leave their families, friends and homes to come here and claim the dole? They want to work and have a life and if some bigots can't accept that then tough ****.


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    #115
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Yup.....No illegal Irish workers there. :rollseyes:

    Completely honestly: I don't get your point.

    bumper234 wrote: »
    I am not poopooing anyone's argument I the least, all I am pointing out is that IF Romanian, Bulgarian or any other European decides to come to this country to find work and make a better life for themeselves then maybe people should take a minute to consider why.

    Maybe. Maybe not. The fact of something's existence isn't a particularly strong argument for its examination
    bumper234 wrote: »
    These people are doing EXACTLY what the Irish have done for decades, why is it ok for the Irish to travel the world looking for work but when someone else does it then it's a terrible thing?

    Well it's not exactly the same. For one thing; Irish people have never travelled en masse to eastern Europe seeking work. Sorry; that's pretty irrelevant: but what is relevant is that countries that you have listed (I don't think you listed the UK) are choosy about what Irish people they let in - they try to restrict people to work or holiday visas and have strict penalties for breach of the terms set for these visas. None of this is applicable within the EU.


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Yes I know we are now going to get the whole ZOMG they is only here for our welfarez manies arguments but does anyone really believe they would leave their families, friends and homes to come here and claim the dole? They want to work and have a life and if some bigots can't accept that then tough ****.

    Well they might do, and they might not. Anybody coming here wouldn't be able to claim welfare for two years anyway. People don't really tend to use much evidence for arguing either motion however: they are just "bigots" or "blind liberals".


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    #116
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    alastair wrote: »
    That'll be news to the voters.

    The EU is entirely devoid of direct democracy, has a smattering of representative democracy, and a preponderance of political appointment.


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    #117
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The EU is entirely devoid of direct democracy, has a smattering of representative democracy, and a preponderance of political appointment.

    Ireland itself is pretty much devoid of direct democracy - unless you include referenda, which tend to be more usually EU-specific referenda in recent years - so level pegging there. Otherwise the norm is representative democracy - including, yes, political appointments - for both Ireland, and the EU. It's as if the EU was in fact, not devoid of democracy at all!


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    #118
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.


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    #119
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.

    I didn't refute your "points" simply because I refuse to get into a slanging match with an obvious bigot.


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    #120
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I didn't refute your "points" simply because I refuse to get into a slanging match with an obvious bigot.

    What did I say was bigoted? Saying that the Irish community has a problem with alcohol doesn't mean I am self hating, saying that males are more likely to be violent than woman doesn't make me a misanderist, saying that parts of the islamic community have an unhealthy attitude to woman doesn;t make me Islamophobic.
    Each of these things doesn't mean that I assume that the entire community suffers from these problems or that each individual will be like that, in fact in each of these its a small minority, it means that I recognize that there is a disproportionate problem in comparison to the general population.


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    #121
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.


    You mean the Roma? Who comprise a tiny, tiny minority of immigrants in this country?


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