Eastern European Hoardes on The Way

bumper234 · 04-12-2013 8:02am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

What is begging, aggressive begging, theft at atms and shoplifting if not highly visible anti-social behavior and minor crime respectively. If not would you enlighten me as to what it is

If you honestly think that there is not a serious problem with at least the first two on that list within the Roma community I will ask you a question.

Taking only the central Dublin population of aprox 500,000, and having an absolute maximum number of Roma as 3000 (and thats the estimate for the entire of Ireland), if there isn't a disproportionate problem you should only encounter a Roma begging or aggressively begging only 6 times out of every 1000 times it occurs.

Have you ever asked them how they feel about recent immigrants from India? perhaps they have similar concerns, as you say they are complaining about them taking their jobs and since they will be negatively impacted economically by immigration why not take it at face value?
Directed at Bumper234 how come you don't have an issue with this post considering as its completely derived of hearsay, at least in my argument I can give a reason why I am unable to source any official statistics as they are completely absent.

You mean the beggars go to the area that has the MOST people? They are hardly going to stand outside a refrigeration company on an industrial estate are they? How many people have you seen get robbed at atms? As for shoplifting I know several people from DUBLIN who shoplift to order. I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?) Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.

RDM_83 again · 04-12-2013 1:18pm

They are hardly going to stand outside a refrigeration company on an industrial estate are they? As for shoplifting I know several people from DUBLIN who shoplift to order. I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?) Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.

bumper234 wrote: »

You mean the beggars go to the area that has the MOST people?

Ok how is my logic so hard to understand or are being deliberately obtuse

Yes beggars would go to the area with most people, this applies across the board however no matter the ethnic background of the beggar they will beg where there is most footfall, so my point still stands if the Roma are not disproportionately involved in this activity only 6 out of a 1000 occurrences should be with a member of the Roma community.
Would you please answer that question as too why this clearly isn't the case if as you assert people of Roma background are not disproportionately involved in this activity.

bumper234 wrote: »

Junkies would cause more crime on O'connell street per week than Roma but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.

Whats your point? This is a discussion on immigration not social problems to do with addiction. Or are you comparing Roma to "Junkies" (a term considered offensive to many).
And yes I would agree that they do cause more problems than members of the Roma community, however thats a false analogy as there already is a large range of services that specifically target those with addiction problems and they are widely recognized as being a grouping that cause a social problems.

bumper234 wrote: »

I think you are starting to show that your problem is not immigration in general but foreigners (Roma in particular?)

bumper234 wrote: »

but I don't hear you screaming for their blood.

Could you please stop personalizing this debate or at least provide evidence of what your stating above, you have asked me each time about only the part of my post pertaining to the Roma so I apologies if I have answered your questions on it or would you prefer it if I just ignored your posts?
How exactly am I screaming for their blood? recognizing that there is problems in that community is not "screaming for blood", have I said anything offensive or inflamitory in my posts, if I have report my posts as if you take a read of the charter there's some pretty strong rules about that here.
And where have I had an "issue for foreigners"

Nodin · 04-12-2013 1:33pm

....I'm not seeing sufficient problems with Roma to justify ending free movement within the EU....

RDM_83 again · 04-12-2013 1:36pm

Nodin wrote: »

....I'm not seeing sufficient problems with Roma to justify ending free movement within the EU....

And where exactly have I indicated anything like that being proposed in any of my posts?

Nodin · 04-12-2013 2:13pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

And where exactly have I indicated anything like that being proposed in any of my posts?

You brought them up as one of your objections.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2013 12:15am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.

I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.

I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them

Well said RDM_83,and it appears that at least one such place is the High Court.......

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/roma-family-claiming-intimidation-by-neighbourhood-win-high-court-order-on-housing-transfer-29810091.html

Nodin · 05-12-2013 12:51am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well said RDM_83,and it appears that at least one such place is the High Court.......

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/roma-family-claiming-intimidation-by-neighbourhood-win-high-court-order-on-housing-transfer-29810091.html

There's obviously some point you're trying to make there, but I can't quite work it out. Please be as good as to explain.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2013 8:50pm

It's worth noting that the EU is not a democratic institution.

alastair · 07-12-2013 12:01pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's worth noting that the EU is not a democratic institution.

That'll be news to the voters.

Judgement Day · 07-12-2013 11:39pm

alastair wrote: »

That'll be news to the voters.

The few that still bother voting on EU issues.

alastair · 08-12-2013 2:07am

Judgement Day wrote: »

The few that still bother voting on EU issues.

58% turnout for the last EU elections. Up from the previous two elections.

RandomName2 · 08-12-2013 11:46am

bumper234 wrote: »

This always makes me laugh.

What about all of those foreign nationals hordes that are swarming to Australia, America and Canada....you know the ones....from Ireland:rolleyes:

Wow. Didn't know we had freedom of movement with those countries. Thought you needed visas and things like that.

Also didn't realise that the population of Ireland totally dwarfs America.

~

I don't actually particularly care about the topic of the OP - but this kneejerk method of poopooing peoples' arguments in this sloppy manner is tiresome.

Incidentally there is a very, very large number of eastern European EU citizens living here, not that I think that that's going to dramatically increase in any way in the near future.

bumper234 · 08-12-2013 12:18pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Wow. Didn't know we had freedom of movement with those countries. Thought you needed visas and things like that.

Also didn't realise that the population of Ireland totally dwarfs America.

Yup.....No illegal Irish workers there. :rollseyes:

~

I don't actually particularly care about the topic of the OP - but this kneejerk method of poopooing peoples' arguments in this sloppy manner is tiresome.

Incidentally there is a very, very large number of eastern European EU citizens living here, not that I think that that's going to dramatically increase in any way in the near future.

I am not poopooing anyone's argument I the least, all I am pointing out is that IF Romanian, Bulgarian or any other European decides to come to this country to find work and make a better life for themeselves then maybe people should take a minute to consider why. These people are doing EXACTLY what the Irish have done for decades, why is it ok for the Irish to travel the world looking for work but when someone else does it then it's a terrible thing?

Yes I know we are now going to get the whole ZOMG they is only here for our welfarez manies arguments but does anyone really believe they would leave their families, friends and homes to come here and claim the dole? They want to work and have a life and if some bigots can't accept that then tough ****.

RandomName2 · 08-12-2013 9:38pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Yup.....No illegal Irish workers there. :rollseyes:

Completely honestly: I don't get your point.

bumper234 wrote: »

I am not poopooing anyone's argument I the least, all I am pointing out is that IF Romanian, Bulgarian or any other European decides to come to this country to find work and make a better life for themeselves then maybe people should take a minute to consider why.

Maybe. Maybe not. The fact of something's existence isn't a particularly strong argument for its examination

bumper234 wrote: »

These people are doing EXACTLY what the Irish have done for decades, why is it ok for the Irish to travel the world looking for work but when someone else does it then it's a terrible thing?

Well it's not exactly the same. For one thing; Irish people have never travelled en masse to eastern Europe seeking work. Sorry; that's pretty irrelevant: but what is relevant is that countries that you have listed (I don't think you listed the UK) are choosy about what Irish people they let in - they try to restrict people to work or holiday visas and have strict penalties for breach of the terms set for these visas. None of this is applicable within the EU.

bumper234 wrote: »

Yes I know we are now going to get the whole ZOMG they is only here for our welfarez manies arguments but does anyone really believe they would leave their families, friends and homes to come here and claim the dole? They want to work and have a life and if some bigots can't accept that then tough ****.

Well they might do, and they might not. Anybody coming here wouldn't be able to claim welfare for two years anyway. People don't really tend to use much evidence for arguing either motion however: they are just "bigots" or "blind liberals".

RandomName2 · 08-12-2013 9:41pm

alastair wrote: »

That'll be news to the voters.

The EU is entirely devoid of direct democracy, has a smattering of representative democracy, and a preponderance of political appointment.

alastair · 09-12-2013 1:15am

RandomName2 wrote: »

The EU is entirely devoid of direct democracy, has a smattering of representative democracy, and a preponderance of political appointment.

Ireland itself is pretty much devoid of direct democracy - unless you include referenda, which tend to be more usually EU-specific referenda in recent years - so level pegging there. Otherwise the norm is representative democracy - including, yes, political appointments - for both Ireland, and the EU. It's as if the EU was in fact, not devoid of democracy at all!

RDM_83 again · 09-12-2013 12:55pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.

bumper234 · 09-12-2013 1:15pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.

I didn't refute your "points" simply because I refuse to get into a slanging match with an obvious bigot.

RDM_83 again · 09-12-2013 1:57pm

bumper234 wrote: »

I didn't refute your "points" simply because I refuse to get into a slanging match with an obvious bigot.

What did I say was bigoted? Saying that the Irish community has a problem with alcohol doesn't mean I am self hating, saying that males are more likely to be violent than woman doesn't make me a misanderist, saying that parts of the islamic community have an unhealthy attitude to woman doesn;t make me Islamophobic.
Each of these things doesn't mean that I assume that the entire community suffers from these problems or that each individual will be like that, in fact in each of these its a small minority, it means that I recognize that there is a disproportionate problem in comparison to the general population.

Nodin · 09-12-2013 4:38pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Does not imply an advocating for a termination of free movement, what it does imply and this is what people seem to be missing about my point is that tackling the issues in certain communities is in every-bodies interests both immigrants and non-immigrants is like, all that happens when people seem to have a willful blindness to certain issues (witness the previous posters not in anyway refuting my easily shown point about the differing rate as compared to the population), is that attitudes harden among the general population and after a tipping point we end up with reactionary policies and increased right wing activity as has been seen in mainland Europe, something that should be prevented if possible.

You mean the Roma? Who comprise a tiny, tiny minority of immigrants in this country?

RDM_83 again · 09-12-2013 7:05pm

Nodin wrote: »

You mean the Roma? Who comprise a tiny, tiny minority of immigrants in this country?

It was only one point out of the three I said that raised a response so I have been trying to explain my thinking on the issue.

They are as I stated earlier they only number in the region of 3000 in Ireland, however as I keep referencing on mainland Europe, Italy in particular, France to a lesser extent and I am not sure about Holland, the actions of a pretty tiny number of people have soured the view of many on immigration from EU ascension countries and led to draconian populist measures being put in place.

Whats wrong with accepting that there is a problem in that community and actually tackling it now rather than being officially blind until some party decides that it can garner votes by attempting to or actually succeeding in bringing in reactionary measures and poisoning and polarizing the wider debate about immigration even more even aside from the direct moral concerns that the policies in such places like Italy cause.

Intervention doesn't mean taking their children from them or packing them off back East by the way it means accepting that there is issues in the community and working to solve them rather than hysterically denying that there is anything negative occurring because official statistics which aren't even applicable due to the way they are recorded (not mentioning ethnicity instead focusing on Nationality).

My counter point is, considering the situation that has developed in countries in Europe how would you handle the situation? Because I would be surprised if as a fairly left wing person you think that what occurs if you completely ignore it for a decade or two is really what you want occurring!

Nodin · 09-12-2013 7:48pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

It was only one point out of the three I said that raised a response so I have been trying to explain my thinking on the issue.

They are as I stated earlier they only number in the region of 3000 in Ireland, however as I keep referencing on mainland Europe, Italy in particular, France to a lesser extent and I am not sure about Holland, the actions of a pretty tiny number of people have soured the view of many on immigration from EU ascension countries and led to draconian populist measures being put in place.

Whats wrong with accepting that there is a problem in that community and actually tackling it now rather than being officially blind until some party decides that it can garner votes by attempting to or actually succeeding in bringing in reactionary measures and poisoning and polarizing the wider debate about immigration even more even aside from the direct moral concerns that the policies in such places like Italy cause.!

I never said there wasn't a problem. What I am saying is that bringing up the Roma as an objection to European free movement into this country is to take out a herd of elephants and shoot them because one had a fly on his back.

RDM_83 again · 11-12-2013 3:11am

Nodin wrote: »

I never said there wasn't a problem. What I am saying is that bringing up the Roma as an objection to European free movement into this country is to take out a herd of elephants and shoot them because one had a fly on his back.

Fair enough it was the least important point of the three on my views anyway which are primarily concerned on the impact immigration has on the labour market for the lower paid in a time of excess of employment and economic stagnation/contraction.

It will be interesting to see how the current UK proposals are termed and how they play in terms of EU law though as far as I can see we already have a lot of them in place. At least everyone can probably agree that hammering firms that don't pay minimum wage is a good thing anyway

Eastern European Hoardes on The Way

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