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Eastern European Hoardes on The Way

2

Comments

  • #52
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    As a former 'immigrant' of Australia, New Zealand, USA (admitedly illegally) and some time spent in Wales, I think it would be highly hypocritical of me to get up in arms at the thought of people from other countries wishing to better themselves here.

    Granted, I would have no time for the beggars/robbers of marauding gangs (of which I won't mention their name) but foir the rest, wanting work and a better life, tear away.

    We Irish sometimes forget the tin we were baked in when it comes to people coming to our shores for work.


  • #53
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Riskymove wrote: »
    They are in the EU and can come here freely

    The "restrictions" mentioned above included that they have to live here for a year before being able to work. As mentioned this were dropped earlier this year

    There were only 450 or so applications for a work permit in recent years from residents of these countries.

    In our current climate, its unlikely we will see big numbers coming here for work.

    This bit would be true.


  • #54
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    There are a lot of Romanians washing cars these days. You can get the car washed for €4 or €5. I have never seen an Irishman wash a car for money. The Irishman would choose welfare over washing cars. That is a problem for our welfare system and society in general. If we are importing workers because the locals won't do the work then that is bad for the state finances. What happens when the Romanian car washer has a year done and decides that he would like to draw the dole now instead of busting his balls washing cars... bring in yet more immigrants to do the work??


  • #55
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,353 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    woodoo wrote: »
    What happens when the Romanian car washer has a year done and decides that he would like to draw the dole now instead of busting his balls washing cars...
    The "Romanian car washer" will be sorely disappointed, assumed that's his first year in the state which you appear to be implying.


  • #56
    creeper1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭creeper1


    Some of the Eastern European workers are extremely hard working and will suffer all kinds of privations to make a bit of dough. Twenty living in a two bedroom house you name it they'll do it. I don't doubt this! It is a negative for us because it keeps wages down.

    Sure if you are some exploitative business owner then it's good news. Most of us aren't.

    Do remember that Romanians have a large gypsy population and they will resort to begging more readily than other nationalities in my humble opinion.

    A lot of them are unrefined, using streets as toilets.

    For a sneak preview of what it'll be like in Ireland see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNEFigjmLvY


  • #57
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    Ireland has had restrictions on who can access welfare payments from the beginning.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Hush you with your facts. We're talking about immigration here. Facts have no place in this discussion.

    By welfare you mean Job Seekers Benefit or Jobs Seekers allowance or are you referring to the entire welfare system which includes payments from the HSE. Because AFAIK there can be discretionary payments outside the normal rules.


  • #58
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    By welfare you mean Job Seekers Benefit or Jobs Seekers allowance or are you referring to the entire welfare system which includes payments from the HSE. Because AFAIK there can be discretionary payments outside the normal rules.


    I'd research discretionary payments before going down that route. Suffice to say its not what you think it is.


  • #59
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    creeper1 wrote: »
    Some of the Eastern European workers are extremely hard working and will suffer all kinds of privations to make a bit of dough. Twenty living in a two bedroom house you name it they'll do it. I don't doubt this! It is a negative for us because it keeps wages down.

    Sure if you are some exploitative business owner then it's good news. Most of us aren't.

    Do remember that Romanians have a large gypsy population and they will resort to begging more readily than other nationalities in my humble opinion.

    ......your humble opinion seems a tad pointed yet decidedly vague tbh.
    creeper1 wrote: »
    A lot of them are unrefined, using streets as toilets.

    For a sneak preview of what it'll be like in Ireland see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNEFigjmLvY

    Your video refers to people living homeless on the streets of London, not Romanian immigrants. Being homeless means not having access to the usual facilities. It strikes me that your distortion of the situation is xenophobic.


  • #60
    M5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,161 ✭✭✭✭M5


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Funny you claim that, when I worked in construction I met 2 engineers, 1 micro biologist, a dentist and a living breathing actual ROCKET SCIENTIST! All working as labourer's because the money working construction here was better than doing their own jobs back in Poland (scientist was actually from Estonia). Hardly unskilled imo but just paid better here and willing to do the work.

    Emigrant populations tend to be more educated than their hosts. Simple reason being that emigrants are usually educated.

    I can second you on your point. The vast majority of the eastern Europeans I know have degrees, many have masters and the odd PHD has been noted!


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  • #61
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    bumper234 wrote: »
    This always makes me laugh.

    What about all of those foreign nationals hordes that are swarming to Australia, America and Canada....you know the ones....from Ireland:rolleyes:

    I don't think that's a particularly applicable analogy. And I'm currently working abroad, and glad of the opportunity. However, I was recruited for my position, and am here because my host country doesn't have enough people with my particular skill set. Should that change, I'll be out on my arse.

    Both Australia and Canada are crying out for suitably qualified immigrants to fill essential positions, and are actively ecouraging immigration. None of the three countries you mentioned have an open-door policy. So the comparision isn't at all valid.

    I have no issue with such a policy. However, I do think that there should be some restriction on social welfare benefits. Perhaps a 3 month waiting period as outlned by Cameron? And I definitely believe that serious reform is needed so that Irish and non-nationals who refuse employment are cut off from further benefits.


  • #62
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,657 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    bumper234 wrote: »
    This always makes me laugh.

    What about all of those foreign nationals hordes that are swarming to Australia, America and Canada....you know the ones....from Ireland:rolleyes:

    With sincere motives I would think.


  • #63
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    walshb wrote: »
    With sincere motives I would think.

    But a Romanian or a Bulgarian coming here wouldn't have "sincere motives"?


  • #64
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭creedp


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Funny you claim that, when I worked in construction I met 2 engineers, 1 micro biologist, a dentist and a living breathing actual ROCKET SCIENTIST! All working as labourer's because the money working construction here was better than doing their own jobs back in Poland (scientist was actually from Estonia). Hardly unskilled imo but just paid better here and willing to do the work.


    Would Irish construction workers be better off taking up these construction jobs rather than going on the dole or emigrating? This is what I find difficult to understand about Ireland .. how come we have so many experienced construction workers on the dole and yet we have an abundance of non-nationals with no/little construction experience filling construction jobs? Is it because the inexperienced non-national will work for lower pay and does this have any knock on consequences for the quality of construction in Ireland?


  • #65
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    creedp wrote: »
    Would Irish construction workers be better off taking up these construction jobs rather than going on the dole or emigrating? This is what I find difficult to understand about Ireland .. how come we have so many experienced construction workers on the dole and yet we have an abundance of non-nationals with no/little construction experience filling construction jobs? Is it because the inexperienced non-national will work for lower pay and does this have any knock on consequences for the quality of construction in Ireland?

    Erm....i'm talking about 10 years ago....you know....when we all partied and lived above our means:rolleyes:


  • #66
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    You have to provide proof that you have being living in Ireland under HRC rules before getting welfare, all Europeans go though this even Irish coming back to Ireland go through this.

    If you are coming from a country you may claim BENEFIT in your new country under EU but only at the rate from the country you came from and only for 78 days.


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  • #67
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd research discretionary payments before going down that route. Suffice to say its not what you think it is.

    Hmmm will have to look up the other stuff but I am definitely right about people without habitual residency being able to access certain payments from a community welfare officer (HSE administered)

    "Exceptional Needs Payment and Urgent Needs Payment are payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme. You do not have to meet the habitual residence condition to qualify for either of these payments"

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html


  • #68
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Hmmm will have to look up the other stuff but I am definitely right about people without habitual residency being able to access certain payments from a community welfare officer (HSE administered)

    "Exceptional Needs Payment and Urgent Needs Payment are payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme. You do not have to meet the habitual residence condition to qualify for either of these payments"

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html


    Did you read the description of the exceptional needs and the discretionary payment?


  • #69
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    creedp wrote: »
    Would Irish construction workers be better off taking up these construction jobs rather than going on the dole or emigrating? This is what I find difficult to understand about Ireland .. how come we have so many experienced construction workers on the dole and yet we have an abundance of non-nationals with no/little construction experience filling construction jobs? Is it because the inexperienced non-national will work for lower pay and does this have any knock on consequences for the quality of construction in Ireland?


    Do you have any information to back this up?


  • #70
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    Did you read the description of the exceptional needs and the discretionary payment?

    I am aware what they are, you stated that recent immigrants can not access welfare from the state, payments from the community welfare officer are welfare even though they are coming from a different budget.
    So your wrong in your blanket statement in fact I would ask the question if they are so completely locked out of the system why are these payments specifically exempted from the residency requirements.
    These payments are designed to be one off, but they are discretionary and it appears impossible to show either way how repeat claims are handled
    Incidentally the whole supplementary welfare system lacks oversight so its impossible to tell how claims are handled depending on area
    (I will try and dig out the new article about this issue later)


  • #71
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I am aware what they are, you stated that recent immigrants can not access welfare from the state, payments from the community welfare officer are welfare even though they are coming from a different budget.
    So your wrong in your blanket statement in fact I would ask the question if they are so completely locked out of the system why are these payments specifically exempted from the residency requirements.
    These payments are designed to be one off, but they are discretionary and it appears impossible to show either way how repeat claims are handled
    Incidentally the whole supplementary welfare system lacks oversight so its impossible to tell how claims are handled depending on area
    (I will try and dig out the new article about this issue later)


    They are one off payments for specific purposes. You can't live off them.


    An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs. You can also apply for financial help for clothing for children
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html

    You might explain what it is you're trying to get at......


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  • #72
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    ENP cannot be paid out to people who fail to meet HRC.


  • #73
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭creedp


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do you have any information to back this up?


    Back what up?


  • #74
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    creedp wrote: »
    Back what up?

    Your assertion that there are
    "so many experienced construction workers on the dole and yet we have an abundance of non-nationals with no/little construction experience filling construction jobs? ".


  • #75
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭creedp


    Nodin wrote: »
    Your assertion that there are
    "so many experienced construction workers on the dole and yet we have an abundance of non-nationals with no/little construction experience filling construction jobs? ".

    I was quoting:
    Funny you claim that, when I worked in construction I met 2 engineers, 1 micro biologist, a dentist and a living breathing actual ROCKET SCIENTIST! All working as labourer's because the money working construction here was better than doing their own jobs back in Poland (scientist was actually from Estonia). Hardly unskilled imo but just paid better here and willing to do the work.

    I have since been put back in my box!


  • #76
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    todolist wrote: »
    Most Eastern European workers her are unskilled
    In industry the very attraction of Eastern European workers, aside of course from wages, is that they're often highly skilled. In a company I used to work for most of the Polish workers, for example, that we employed on the shop floor had 3-4 years of technical training in vocational schools. Their basic skill levels (wiring, welding, etc) were streets ahead of the locals


  • #77
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    They are one off payments for specific purposes. You can't live off them.


    An Exceptional Needs Payment is a single payment to help meet essential, once-off, exceptional expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet out of their weekly income. For example, the payments can be for special clothing for a person who has a serious illness, bedding or cooking utensils for someone setting up a home for the first time, visiting relatives in hospital or prison, or funeral costs. You can also apply for financial help for clothing for children
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html

    You might explain what it is you're trying to get at......

    My point is that there is certain payments that non habitual residents can access, it is not correct to make a blanket statement that they are completely locked out of the welfare system, what level of assessment is actually carried out by the CW officer a person who operates in a system with an extremely low level of oversite.
    Elmo wrote: »
    ENP cannot be paid out to people who fail to meet HRC.

    So citizens information and the social welfare website are supplying incorrect information :confused:


  • #78
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    My point is that there is certain payments that non habitual residents can access, it is not correct to make a blanket statement that they are completely locked out of the welfare system, what level of assessment is actually carried out by the CW officer a person who operates in a system with an extremely low level of oversite.

    It's rather misleading to include a one off conditional payment in consideration of the issue.

    I presume the part I put in bold was put in to imply these are forked out willy nilly?


  • #79
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's rather misleading to include a one off conditional payment in consideration of the issue.

    I presume the part I put in bold was put in to imply these are forked out willy nilly?

    No its because its the truth and my point was simply that its factually incorrect to say that non habitual residents are completely locked out of the Irish welfare system, I personally don't think its likely to be a huge issue but its impossible to say with the way the system is set up.


  • #80
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    No its because its the truth and my point was simply that its factually incorrect to say that non habitual residents are completely locked out of the Irish welfare system, I personally don't think its likely to be a huge issue but its impossible to say with the way the system is set up.

    They might as well be, as its impossible to live off such payment as might be made.


  • #81
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    No its because its the truth and my point was simply that its factually incorrect to say that non habitual residents are completely locked out of the Irish welfare system, I personally don't think its likely to be a huge issue but its impossible to say with the way the system is set up.

    Citizen Info can be very wrong. In relation to HRC I know having experience of HRC that if you are deem not to meet HRC then you won't get any payment from the HSE. This will tighten up as such payments move to DSP.

    The HSE have made a mess of giving out money to anyone and everyone. Not just the Eastern Europeans.


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  • #82
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    It always strikes me as strange that the left are so supportive of a cheep mobile workforce keeping the profits of the already rich healthy, it seems so counter intuitive to the liberal agenda.

    You would think that supporting the right of a healthy profit making company being able to herd humans instead of offering more compensation to fill a job position would be more the work of the right? Aw well, at least the rich are getting richer faster than any other period in history.


  • #83
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gallag wrote: »
    It always strikes me as strange that the left are so supportive of a cheep mobile workforce keeping the profits of the already rich healthy, it seems so counter intuitive to the liberal agenda.

    You would think that supporting the right of a healthy profit making company being able to herd humans instead of offering more compensation to fill a job position would be more the work of the right? Aw well, at least the rich are getting richer faster than any other period in history.

    Which company is 'herding humans'? I'd have thought that freedom of movement and employment within the EU was an initiative that empowered the worker.


  • #84
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    gallag wrote: »
    It always strikes me as strange that the left are so supportive of a cheep mobile workforce keeping the profits of the already rich healthy, it seems so counter intuitive to the liberal agenda.

    You would think that supporting the right of a healthy profit making company being able to herd humans instead of offering more compensation to fill a job position would be more the work of the right? Aw well, at least the rich are getting richer faster than any other period in history.

    Wow it's like you copied that straight from the sinn fein/socialist party websites :rolleyes:


  • #85
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    gallag wrote: »
    It always strikes me as strange that the left are so supportive of a cheep mobile workforce keeping the profits of the already rich healthy, it seems so counter intuitive to the liberal agenda.

    You would think that supporting the right of a healthy profit making company being able to herd humans instead of offering more compensation to fill a job position would be more the work of the right? Aw well, at least the rich are getting richer faster than any other period in history.

    The only way to prevent exploitation of migrants and to keep working conditions at a decent level is via trade union organisation. Unions need to incorporate migrant workers and aid them to fight for better wages. The "send them back where they came from" line has never prevented migration and neither will it empower working class people in any way or form. Solidarity and organisation is the only way forward.


  • #86
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The only way to prevent exploitation of migrants and to keep working conditions at a decent level is via trade union organisation. Unions need to incorporate migrant workers and aid them to fight for better wages. The "send them back where they came from" line has never prevented migration and neither will it empower working class people in any way or form. Solidarity and organisation is the only way forward.

    Thats a lovely idea but and within a booming economy it has a place but unfortunately it only works to a certain degree, within Ireland at the minute Unionization can work to prevent the worst abuses but they are pretty much powerless to influence wages apart from enforcing compliance with the minimum wage, this isn't me union bashing I actually joined one this month as there is a drive to unionize my industry but you have to be realistic about what unionization can achieve.

    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tec00120
    The simple fact is the EU free movement wasn't designed to handle such large discrepancies in income and cost of living.
    If I am Irish and working a minimum wage job for 4 years I might save up 8,000 euro, this amount of capitol wouldn't place me on the housing market or set up a business within Ireland.
    If I was Bulgarian and I saved the equivalent amount of money I would have sufficient capital to dramatically improve my life if I returned to Bulgaria.
    This difference means its of real benefit for some one from Bulgaria to secure employment even if it means undercutting the local labour force.
    This isn't a xenophobic view point its simply one that looks at motivation and self interest.

    The differences between prices accross the EU are in this table here, Ireland is at 115% of the EU average, Bulgaria is at 49%.


  • #87
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Thats a lovely idea but and within a booming economy it has a place but unfortunately it only works to a certain degree, within Ireland at the minute Unionization can work to prevent the worst abuses but they are pretty much powerless to influence wages apart from enforcing compliance with the minimum wage

    Well first of all enforcing the minimum wage is a key element of workers' solidarity because as a consequence, it keeps other wages high while also protecting the interests of those in low-paid and casual employment. Similarly a well organised union can also argue for certain rates of pay in certain industries. This occurs in places like Germany and the USA in manufacturing and construction.

    I take on board what you're saying about migrants being able to buy more at home but that doesn't mean they'll willingly accept less money either. I work in a union and dealing with migrants is part of my job. They are acutely aware when they get paid less than their counterparts and are often very eager to organise and fight around that issue. However, there a number of obstacles which they face in doing that and it's up to the unions to help them overcome those.

    To be honest it's the only realistic solution as migration is simply a process that's too embedded in today's world to stop.


  • #88
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Well first of all enforcing the minimum wage is a key element of workers' solidarity because as a consequence, it keeps other wages high while also protecting the interests of those in low-paid and casual employment. Similarly a well organised union can also argue for certain rates of pay in certain industries. This occurs in places like Germany and the USA in manufacturing and construction.

    They can't in Ireland though since the JLC's and related stuff have been ruled illegal (you probably know a lot more about that!), even in terms of pressuring individual companies to set salary scales across the industry it may be unworkable as multi-company negotiations can easily fall foul of anti-cartel and price fixing laws.
    FTA69 wrote: »
    I take on board what you're saying about migrants being able to buy more at home but that doesn't mean they'll willingly accept less money either. I work in a union and dealing with migrants is part of my job. They are acutely aware when they get paid less than their counterparts and are often very eager to organise and fight around that issue. However, there a number of obstacles which they face in doing that and it's up to the unions to help them overcome those.

    But it doesn't change the fact in a situation like Ireland where there is an excess workforce increasing the pool of workers even more leads to wage deflation and the simple fact is that it is more beneficial for an ex-pat worker (not migrant with a long term goal of settling in this country) to settle for less.
    FTA69 wrote: »
    To be honest it's the only realistic solution as migration is simply a process that's too embedded in today's world to stop.

    We can't halt immigration and I don't think it would necessarily be beneficial if we did, but it could definitely be managed better and the issues surrounding it need to be debated properly.
    There is a very high level of public opinion against immigration across the key EU member states its not simply a Irish or British issue, the refusal to consider the negatives of migration and demonise those with concerns, the Gordon Brown incident of him calling a longstanding Labour supporter a bigot is a good example of this attitude (something Milliband has since spoken about) doesn't actually sway public opinion it just tells people that their concerns are not of interest.
    Whats happened because of this attitude is that we now have a group of parties with rather extreme ideologies* gaining significant influence across the EU, this should be a real concern for all those that consider the EU project and liberal social democracy as a worth while goal, but the fact is their rise isn't the cause of this public opinion against the EU and migration its a symptom of the disregard of public opinion and the stifling of debate that has occured by some of the mainstream parties and (I hate to use this term, I read the guardian :( but i can't think of a more accurate one) the centre left political media

    * I hesitate to call them traditional extreme right-wing as such because across diferent countries they have very different views e.g The dutch Freedom Party in some aspects is socially liberal.


  • #89
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I really don't care either way about "mass" immigration, because I really can't see what actual harm has been done.

    I think the centre left media have a point. Most of those who are "concerned" about immigration are people who simply don't like a lot of foreigners living near them.

    The fact that levels of such "concern" are high does not make it morally acceptable to pander to it. There was huge "concern" about jews back in the 1930s and it was pandered to, with results we all know about.


  • #90
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I really don't care either way about "mass" immigration, because I really can't see what actual harm has been done.

    I think the centre left media have a point. Most of those who are "concerned" about immigration are people who simply don't like a lot of foreigners living near them.

    The fact that levels of such "concern" are high does not make it morally acceptable to pander to it. There was huge "concern" about jews back in the 1930s and it was pandered to, with results we all know about.

    Thats actually a really good example of what I am talking about.
    You dismiss any legitimate concerns with a line and no information in that line.
    You label those with concerns as racists/xenophobes (incidentally research shows that among foreign born respondents in the UK the vast majority do not favour an increase in immigration http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-concern
    so your viewpoint as well as being dismissive and condescending is also not based on actual knowledge)
    Then you throw in the Nazism reference, I don't think I need to explain why Godwinning isn't a good thing (and completely ignores my point in that we need actual engagement with this issue to prevent the rise of the far right)


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  • #91
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    OK RDM, lets look at the actual concerns, rather than concerns in the abstract. What are they?


  • #92
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    OK RDM, lets look at the actual concerns, rather than concerns in the abstract. What are they?

    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

    Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

    I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.
    I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

    If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them


  • #93
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views

    Are you talking about my concerns or those held by others, my concerns are focused on Ireland and our current economic situation.

    I believe that mass immigration has a negative effect on the lower paid at a time of economic constriction like we are going through at present.
    I believe that mass immigration to Ireland does not hold the same demographic benefit to Ireland as it holds for some other EU countries as we currently have the highest birthrate within the EU.
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    Its important to note that these are specific to Ireland now, , not Ireland in the celtic tiger , mass immigration not targeted immigration I am not advocating a send them home policy to current migrants, I am hoping that we can have a civilized debate about migration policy without people suggesting that their opponents are facists that hate foreigners.

    If you want other peoples views there's a million different places and studies where you can find them

    Do you have any evidence for the bolded? Which communities are you speaking of? Or is ot communities of foreigners in general?


  • #94
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I take it you'l admit that in the it clearly isn't just about about having lots of "foreigners living near them" ;) or are you going to come back to me on that evidence that shows that foreign born Uk residents also hold those views
    The two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite funny (in a painful way) to hear Sikh immigrants in England bitching about those bloody eastern Europeans coming in and taking their jobs.


  • #95
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Do you have any evidence for the bolded? Which communities are you speaking of? Or is ot communities of foreigners in general?

    The Roma specifically (which makes me sound like an AH refugee), I don't have any evidence to back up this viewpoint from a statistical stand point but its also impossible for me to have this evidence as the CSO doesn't include ethnic group instead recording nationality (which would include Slovakia and Hungary as well as Romania), the Garda also don't release this information and information on prison numbers would be misleading as this low level criminality/anti-social behaviour doesn't result in custodial sentences.

    Its based on personal observation having lived in North Dublin city and while it is unfair to stigmatise an entire ethnic group of a few Roma numbers in Ireland are actually quiet small (in the region of 3000) so having such a visible level of anti-social behaviour does indicate a serious problem in the community that should not be ignored due to concerns about political correctness. A continuing official blindness to this issue simply results in a hardening of attitudes in the general population and in time may allow groups to gain political clout by advocating draconian measures (and these measures may become implemented if a political party sees the advantage of playing to prejudice as has been the case in Europe). If there is a pro-active response now both the Roma community in Ireland and wider Irish society would benefit rather than letting a situation develop like it has in mainland europe.

    I actually have considerable sympathy for the Roma as they are treated like dirt in countries like Hungary but the attitudes in Ireland are not the result of some historic racist folk memory they are the result of a highly visible anti-social element in a very recent community.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite funny (in a painful way) to hear Sikh immigrants in England bitching about those bloody eastern Europeans coming in and taking their jobs.

    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern, and actually an accurate one at that as previous immigrants are actually those most impacted negatively by an increased number of new immigrants (Migration Observatory associated with Oxford mentions this so its not a hypothetical)


  • #96
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    So you say
    I believe that immigration from certain communities has caused an increase in low level criminality and that this issue should be recognized and tackled in a manner that doesn't resort to policies such as in Italy but doesn't shy away from the fact that there is issues in these communties.

    But you have NO proof of the claim you make:rolleyes:

    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    The Roma specifically (which makes me sound like an AH refugee), I don't have any evidence to back up this viewpoint from a statistical stand point but its also impossible for me to have this evidence as the CSO doesn't include ethnic group instead recording nationality (which would include Slovakia and Hungary as well as Romania), the Garda also don't release this information and information on prison numbers would be misleading as this low level criminality/anti-social behaviour doesn't result in custodial sentences.

    Its based on personal observation having lived in North Dublin city and while it is unfair to stigmatise an entire ethnic group of a few Roma numbers in Ireland are actually quiet small (in the region of 3000) so having such a visible level of anti-social behaviour does indicate a serious problem in the community that should not be ignored due to concerns about political correctness. A continuing official blindness to this issue simply results in a hardening of attitudes in the general population and in time may allow groups to gain political clout by advocating draconian measures (and these measures may become implemented if a political party sees the advantage of playing to prejudice as has been the case in Europe). If there is a pro-active response now both the Roma community in Ireland and wider Irish society would benefit rather than letting a situation develop like it has in mainland europe.

    I actually have considerable sympathy for the Roma as they are treated like dirt in countries like Hungary but the attitudes in Ireland are not the result of some historic racist folk memory they are the result of a highly visible anti-social element in a very recent community.



    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern, and actually an accurate one at that as previous immigrants are actually those most impacted negatively by an increased number of new immigrants (Migration Observatory associated with Oxford mentions this so its not a hypothetical)

    I have worked in the city center for over 20 years and the MAJORITY of crime i have witnessed has been by Irish people. Or are you saying that the Roma only commit crime in Roma communities and therefore the crime goes unreported?


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  • #97
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    There's a charity (!) shop in my local town that had a sign up specifically threatening Roma shoplifters - it has since been removed on Garda advice.


  • #98
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So you say



    But you have NO proof of the claim you make:rolleyes:

    As i said its impossible for me to have proof, I'l challenge you to walk around the O'Connell street area for a few hours though and report back to me though. (and keep in mind the figures I mention below in terms of % population !)
    bumper234 wrote: »
    I have worked in the city center for over 20 years and the MAJORITY of crime i have witnessed has been by Irish people. Or are you saying that the Roma only commit crime in Roma communities and therefore the crime goes unreported?

    FFS of course the majority of crime is by Irish people, lets look at the figures, the population of Dublin is say 1,000,000 the population of Roma in Ireland is 3,000 if every Roma lived in Dublin they would still only make up 0.3% of the population, and I am not talking about all crime I am talking about low level highly visible anti-social behaviour and minor crime.


  • #99
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    As i said its impossible for me to have proof, I'l challenge you to walk around the O'Connell street area for a few hours though and report back to me though. (and keep in mind the figures I mention below in terms of % population !)

    I work in the city center i walk O'Connell street EVERY day, the worse i see from Roma is begging.


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    FFS of course the majority of crime is by Irish people, lets look at the figures, the population of Dublin is say 1,000,000 the population of Roma in Ireland is 3,000 if every Roma lived in Dublin they would still only make up 0.3% of the population, and I am not talking about all crime I am talking about low level highly visible anti-social behaviour and minor crime.

    Please tell me about this highly visible anti social behaviour and minor crime that has you so up in arms about the Roma community.


  • #100
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Thats not a xenophobic concern though like Boulevardier was implying, its an economic concern...
    Well, no. They're not criticising their compatriot immigrants; they're complaining about immigrants of other ethnicities and nationalities. That makes their concerns xenophobic.


  • #101
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I work in the city center i walk O'Connell street EVERY day, the worse i see from Roma is begging.

    Please tell me about this highly visible anti social behaviour and minor crime that has you so up in arms about the Roma community.

    What is begging, aggressive begging, theft at atms and shoplifting if not highly visible anti-social behavior and minor crime respectively. If not would you enlighten me as to what it is :confused:

    If you honestly think that there is not a serious problem with at least the first two on that list within the Roma community I will ask you a question.

    Taking only the central Dublin population of aprox 500,000, and having an absolute maximum number of Roma as 3000 (and thats the estimate for the entire of Ireland), if there isn't a disproportionate problem you should only encounter a Roma begging or aggressively begging only 6 times out of every 1000 times it occurs.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Well, no. They're not criticising their compatriot immigrants; they're complaining about immigrants of other ethnicities and nationalities. That makes their concerns xenophobic.

    Have you ever asked them how they feel about recent immigrants from India? perhaps they have similar concerns, as you say they are complaining about them taking their jobs and since they will be negatively impacted economically by immigration why not take it at face value?
    Directed at Bumper234 how come you don't have an issue with this post considering as its completely derived of hearsay, at least in my argument I can give a reason why I am unable to source any official statistics as they are completely absent.


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