Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

end of the road · 04-05-2017 5:47pm

eastwest wrote: »

So are buses, and they make more sense if there are only eight of you.

not at all. such traffic want a high quality experience on their travels. (granted the current onboard environment of our existing railways and high quality don't go hand in hand currently) . the traffic that would want busses all ready have them.

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not a cyclist anyway but the Waterford Greenway with 10,000 cyclists on one day sounds like a nightmare.

i would agree. each to their own though i suppose.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Again, once the WRC becomes a greenway I don't buy for even a second that returning to a railway will ever be an option, the users of the greenway simply won't allow it.

sadly i reccan you are correct. britain again unfortunately shows this trend to be a reality and dispite the best efforts here i can't see that being different for ireland.

04-05-2017 6:34pm

end of the road wrote: »

sadly i reckon you are correct. Britain again unfortunately shows this trend to be a reality and despite the best efforts here i can't see that being different for Ireland.

For some routes that would be very bad for the future, for others a blessing in disguise as a new alignment would suit future traffic needs far better than the present alignment that will remain a greenway.

Athlone Mullingar line OTOH the alignment is already well suited for reinstatement, once the Dublin end is sorted out!

Markcheese · 04-05-2017 7:00pm

JCX BXC wrote:

Again, once the WRC becomes a greenway I don't buy for even a second that returning to a railway will ever be an option, the users of the greenway simply won't allow it.

True... And the local businesses and their staff etc would have a canary if you took away a valuable economic asset to replace it with something less convenient than a bus..
And if the greenaway doesn't fill it's economic roll the alignment would still be there...

what_traffic · 04-05-2017 7:14pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not a cyclist anyway but the Waterford Greenway with 10,000 cyclists on one day sounds like a nightmare.

No not when you really think about. It's 42km in distance, we have 14-15 hours of daylight. Space occupied by people cycling or walking is very small. Some people are only walking 1/2km, same for cycling 5-10km.

When is the last time we got 10,000 using the train between Athenry to Ennis in a month (let alone a day) for comparison?

end of the road · 04-05-2017 7:23pm

Markcheese wrote: »

True... And the local businesses and their staff etc would have a canary if you took away a valuable economic asset to replace it with something less convenient than a bus..

you wouldn't be replacing anything with something less convenient then a bus but potentially a lot more depending on which line currently planned for, or operating as a greenway, would be subject to such a change. you would simply be reusing a transport corridor for it's original usage.

omah · 04-05-2017 8:36pm

Thanks for posting the figures on usage of the greenways - very interesting!

Sam Russell · 05-05-2017 6:55pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Again, once the WRC becomes a greenway I don't buy for even a second that returning to a railway will ever be an option, the users of the greenway simply won't allow it.

If there was a compelling need to rebuild the railway along the original route, I'm sure a CPO of the adjacent few metres of land would not be a problem. 10 or 20 metres of adjacent land is all that would be needed and is probably there anyway and then both greenway and railway could co-exist. There is unlikely to be more than a train every few hours. The current timetable for Dublin Wexford if for 5 journeys Dublin Wexford and 4 coming back, so people on a greenway next to the track would see very few trains in a two hour cycle.

Also, many of the suitable lines are only single track with room reserved for a second track.

end of the road · 05-05-2017 7:44pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there was a compelling need to rebuild the railway along the original route, I'm sure a CPO of the adjacent few metres of land would not be a problem. 10 or 20 metres of adjacent land is all that would be needed and is probably there anyway and then both greenway and railway could co-exist. There is unlikely to be more than a train every few hours. The current timetable for Dublin Wexford if for 5 journeys Dublin Wexford and 4 coming back, so people on a greenway next to the track would see very few trains in a two hour cycle.

Also, many of the suitable lines are only single track with room reserved for a second track.

the room needs to remain reserved on the open lines however.

Muckyboots · 06-05-2017 7:36pm

"WRC The Movie".
No piebald horses were harmed in the making of this soap opera, but a town is being brought to its' knees to make sure that the film set remains untouched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkHYOHIT6Os

Del.Monte · 06-05-2017 8:06pm

129 Views in three years - says it all.

Muckyboots · 06-05-2017 8:21pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

129 Views in three years - says it all.

Can't imagine that its anything that anyone would really want to see- which is the message behind the film. Could easily share happy clappy Greenway success stories with 10,000's of views.
Once again, you are making my point for me.

TCDStudent1 · 07-05-2017 9:57pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

"WRC The Movie".
No piebald horses were harmed in the making of this soap opera, but a town is being brought to its' knees to make sure that the film set remains untouched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkHYOHIT6Os

Thats a very sad, but true video. Even since 2014, Tuam has lost a lot of businesses. When you walk through the town now, the amount of vacant premises with "To Let" signs is heart-breaking. It very much comes across as a dying town. Maybe the opening of the motorway will re-vitalise it in some way. I empathise with the people in the video though; they see this thing staying dormant for years - why not try make some use of it at the moment to see if it helps? Would a greenway help Tuam much? I have no idea but it is worth a try. North Galway does not get much tourism but should try to compete.

westtip · 10-05-2017 9:18am

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Would a greenway help Tuam much? I have no idea but it is worth a try. .

It would help it more than the proposal to have a freight train once a day coming through the town disrupting traffic and contributing zilch to the economy and fabric of the town; lets face it that is what these people see who are proposing spending millions of state funds on a rail line for one freight train a day which could easily be accommodated on current rail infrastructure, at this stage stopping the greenway is one of pure spite.

serfboard · 11-05-2017 1:36pm

westtip wrote: »

It would help it more than the proposal to have a freight train once a day coming through the town ... contributing zilch to the economy and fabric of the town; lets face it that is what these people see who are proposing spending millions of state funds on a rail line for one freight train a day which could easily be accommodated on current rail infrastructure.

Yep. WOT have changed their arguments from passengers to freight, when the poor figures on Ennis->Athenry were revealed. And then they conjured up some fantasy companes "companies not yet in existence" who would be jumping at the chance to set up in the West of Ireland because we would then have great train freight infrastructure!

Give me hundreds of people walking and cycling everyday on a Greenway and many more at the weekends, instead of that fantasy nonsense.

MayoForSam · 12-05-2017 7:07pm

Deise Greenway on Nationwide right now, great project.

Corca Baiscinn · 13-05-2017 7:32pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Deise Greenway on Nationwide right now, great project.

It was fabulous to hear how the combination of community initiative, drive,and involvement and council willingness to engage, came up with the goods in a relatively short space of time. Great to hear how the engineers, more used to designing road infrastructure got behind it and how farmers along the route did too as their actual needs were taken into account. Hope all the County Managers along the WOT route were watching and will tune in again next Wednesday to the next bit of coverage!

Del.Monte · 13-05-2017 7:38pm

Just fabulous - let's convert all the railways into greeways.

Corca Baiscinn · 13-05-2017 7:44pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just fabulous - let's convert all the railways into greeways.

Not really, we need some of them to get to the Greenways! You said in a earlier post that you weren't a cyclist but don't forget they're popular with walkers too.

Del.Monte · 13-05-2017 7:47pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Not really, we need some of them to get to the Greenways! You said in a earlier post that you weren't a cyclist but don't forget they're popular with walkers too.

Surely not, if all the railways were torn up you could cycle or walk from Dublin to anywhere unimpeded?

marno21 · 13-05-2017 8:22pm

I don't think many rational people would support the campaign for a greenway under Collins Avenue or across the Loop Line Bridge but greenways on disused Victorian tramways in sparsely populated parts of Mayo make more sense than abandoned tracks covered in grass and weeds.

eastwest · 13-05-2017 9:00pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Again, once the WRC becomes a greenway I don't buy for even a second that returning to a railway will ever be an option, the users of the greenway simply won't allow it.

The ownership of the route stays with Irish rail. The greenway users will have no say whatsoever in any decision to reinstate a railway. Irish Rail only gives licenses to government or local authorities for greenway development, not to greenway users.

marno21 · 13-05-2017 11:16pm

eastwest wrote: »

The ownership of the route stays with Irish rail. The greenway users will have no say whatsoever in any decision to reinstate a railway. Irish Rail only gives licenses to government or local authorities for greenway development, not to greenway users.

Yes but there would be objections by locals and the opening of the railway might be canned politically. Also, plenty of railways mightn't pass the feasibility study stage given the loss incurred in shutting down the greenway to shuttle a few OAPs around.

eastwest · 14-05-2017 9:11am

marno21 wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

The ownership of the route stays with Irish rail. The greenway users will have no say whatsoever in any decision to reinstate a railway. Irish Rail only gives licenses to government or local authorities for greenway development, not to greenway users.

Yes but there would be objections by locals and the opening of the railway might be canned politically. Also, plenty of railways mightn't pass the feasibility study stage given the loss incurred in shutting down the greenway to shuttle a few OAPs around.

No more railways will be opened unless there is a business case for them, and I don't mean a wishful thinking fudge such as is proposed for the wrc. No matter what kind of looney government we get in the future, the lessons of ennis athenry loom large, and the days when we thought that we were the world's leading economy are long gone. We will simply no longer get away with throwing scarce funds at building ceaucescu style grand schemes to suit the political ambitions of some populist eejit.
However if in the future a case did emerge for rebuilding athenry Tuam for instance, the success and popularity of the greenway would not stop this from happening since the land belongs to Irish Rail. Any such rebuild would be done in sections, and a new greenway would be built alongside the route, by acquiring additional land if necessary to widen the alignment. The sections of Greenway under construction would be temporarily diverted to roadways or temporary paths, as per normal traffic management methods. I recall several miles of the grand union towpath being diverted a few years back during electricity cabling work, and nobody complained.
Politicians prefer lack of progress to doing anything where there are differing points of view, therefore the future for the wrc is the dame as the present. In waterford, while there was some objection by nine councillors and a few landowners who spotted a chance to milk a few quid from the public purse, the majority was in favour of the greenway and the smarter politicians saw which way the wind was blowing and supported the project.
The west isn't blessed with the same proportion of smarts among the public representatives; Tuam isn't Dungarvan, and will never be with the current crop in place.

marno21 · 14-05-2017 1:28pm

I think there was definitely a case for a railway link between Galway and Limerick, as there is between Limerick and Cork. If we are to grow these cities like we plan to do in the new National Planning Framework, having them linked makes sense.

Unfortunately, a new alignment should've been used between Ennis and Galway, especially considering the lack of major population centres bar Gort that would've required stations.

It would also be nice if you could get onward connections to places such as Waterford conveniently from Limerick...

Isambard · 14-05-2017 1:37pm

would be nice if you got a through service from Lim Junc, never mind Waterford!. When I used the line it was shown as a through service but when it all went quiet in Limerick Colbert I eventually twigged it wouldn't happen and had to change trains.

eastwest · 14-05-2017 2:25pm

marno21 wrote: »

I think there was definitely a case for a railway link between Galway and Limerick, as there is between Limerick and Cork. If we are to grow these cities like we plan to do in the new National Planning Framework, having them linked makes sense.

Unfortunately, a new alignment should've been used between Ennis and Galway, especially considering the lack of major population centres bar Gort that would've required stations.

It would also be nice if you could get onward connections to places such as Waterford conveniently from Limerick...

It might have worked on a new alignment, but the motorway would kill it off anyway.
Anyone who remembers the old rail line from Athens to corinth -- twisting and painfully slow, shades of wrc -- will understand the issue. They sensibly decided not to go with the old route when spending eu funds, and built a new link parallel to the new motorway, but after a reasonably good start it failed anyway -- the motorway with flexible bus services carries most of the traffic now.
As for the old line, it is suffering from a bit of squatting at present and seems likely to be lost to public ownership eventually.
We never learn from others mistakes; we prefer to make our own.

JCX BXC · 14-05-2017 2:38pm

marno21 wrote: »

I think there was definitely a case for a railway link between Galway and Limerick, as there is between Limerick and Cork. If we are to grow these cities like we plan to do in the new National Planning Framework, having them linked makes sense.

Unfortunately, a new alignment should've been used between Ennis and Galway, especially considering the lack of major population centres bar Gort that would've required stations.

It would also be nice if you could get onward connections to places such as Waterford conveniently from Limerick...

Would the price not be exorbitant to have built a different Ennis-Galway alignment? A large reason why the railway was rebuilt was because it could be done at a good cost per kilometre.

And yes, rather than dreaming on fantasies, it would be nice if we could utilise what we have first, for example, a direct train from Limerick to Waterford, or at least connections matching up! It's actually shocking (but quite telling) that that's not what's currently in existence.

marno21 · 14-05-2017 2:44pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Would the price not be exorbitant to have built a different Ennis-Galway alignment? A large reason why the railway was rebuilt was because it could be done at a good cost per kilometre.

And yes, rather than dreaming on fantasies, it would be nice if we could utilise what we have first, for example, a direct train from Limerick to Waterford, or at least connections matching up! It's actually shocking (but quite telling) that that's not what's currently in existence.

Whilst the new alignment would have cost more, at lest it would be fit for purpose. When the new M18 opens (direct) bus services will be 45 minutes/1 hour faster.

Limerick-Waterford services on Sunday's to facilitate students/people returning to their place of work after the weekend would be a start. Services on that line are shocking taking everything into accounr

end of the road · 14-05-2017 3:58pm

eastwest wrote: »

It might have worked on a new alignment, but the motorway would kill it off anyway.

or maybe not assuming it was built to a competitive or faster speed with a congestion charge within the cities.

Anyone who remembers the old rail line from Athens to corinth -- twisting and painfully slow, shades of wrc -- will understand the issue. They sensibly decided not to go with the old route when spending eu funds, and built a new link parallel to the new motorway, but after a reasonably good start it failed anyway -- the motorway with flexible bus services carries most of the traffic now.

that line still seems to be open with an hourly train service. hardly failed unless you are talking about a different line? remember greece has gone through a horrific recession so it's not surprising there won't be huge demand for rail travel currently. it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the new rail line or that the so called flexible bus services are better (they will be cheep however)

eastwest · 14-05-2017 6:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

It might have worked on a new alignment, but the motorway would kill it off anyway.

or maybe not assuming it was built to a competitive or faster speed with a congestion charge within the cities.

Anyone who remembers the old rail line from Athens to corinth -- twisting and painfully slow, shades of wrc -- will understand the issue. They sensibly decided not to go with the old route when spending eu funds, and built a new link parallel to the new motorway, but after a reasonably good start it failed anyway -- the motorway with flexible bus services carries most of the traffic now.

that line still seems to be open with an hourly train service. hardly failed unless you are talking about a different line? remember greece has gone through a horrific recession so it's not surprising there won't be huge demand for rail travel currently. it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the new rail line or that the so called flexible bus services are better (they will be cheep however)

The service is still running on athens-corinth, but there's nobody using it compared to the buses.
The bus services evolved to suit user needs, delivering people closer to their work etc. The trains connect to old stations that are no longer all that relevant in terms of location.

Stephen15 · 14-05-2017 8:29pm

end of the road wrote: »

that line still seems to be open with an hourly train service. hardly failed unless you are talking about a different line? remember greece has gone through a horrific recession so it's not surprising there won't be huge demand for rail travel currently. it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the new rail line or that the so called flexible bus services are better (they will be cheep however)

Greek railways much like Irish railways are a bit of a joke by the sounds of things. I was reading a while ago that most of their staff are getting €60k+ a year. Anyway the entire Greek railway network has now been completely sold off by the goverment to Trenitalia despite much objection.

westtip · 15-05-2017 8:46am

marno21 wrote: »

Unfortunately, a new alignment should've been used between Ennis and Galway, especially considering the lack of major population centres bar Gort that would've required stations.
.

This sentence sums up the whole failing of West on Track, which focussed on re-opening what is essentially 19th century infrastructure, with in built delays due to poor alignment and gradients and of course the Athenry stopover. The road lobby had the right idea, new roads on new alignments producing an efficient road system, not widening the old roads and still having every truck going through ballygobackwards; ok road widening has formed part of road strategy, but imagine if it had been the entire strategy. Yes a Galway Limerick railway line may have worked; but it needed to be on a new alignment from Ennis, to Shannon Airport, Gort and direct to Galway, this has been said many times over, but that was never going to happen as the whole WRC was a fudge to fob off the west with the idea it was getting investment. West on Track would never have been listened to if they had asked for a new alignment, it simply was never on the agenda; What it got was the equivalent of a patch on an old computer operating system, an elastoplast that cost a lot of money and hasn't worked. They (west on track) were sold a sop by a government with no fiscal responsibility; that kind of waste should never happen again, it probably will in other areas, but the opportunity to have a proper Galway- Shannon Airport-Limerick rail link has gone forever, and as for north of Athenry, once bitten twice shy.

Consonata · 15-05-2017 12:03pm

westtip wrote: »

They (west on track) were sold a sop by a government with no fiscal responsibility; that kind of waste should never happen again, it probably will in other areas, but the opportunity to have a proper Galway- Shannon Airport-Limerick rail link has gone forever, and as for north of Athenry, once bitten twice shy.

Never say never :pac:

eastwest · 15-05-2017 12:12pm

Consonata wrote: »

westtip wrote: »

They (west on track) were sold a sop by a government with no fiscal responsibility; that kind of waste should never happen again, it probably will in other areas, but the opportunity to have a proper Galway- Shannon Airport-Limerick rail link has gone forever, and as for north of Athenry, once bitten twice shy.

Never say never :pac:

If not forever, for our lifetimes if we're over sixteen.
And live to be a hundred.

westtip · 16-05-2017 4:31pm

marno21 wrote: »

Yes but there would be objections by locals and the opening of the railway might be canned politically. Also, plenty of railways mightn't pass the feasibility study stage given the loss incurred in shutting down the greenway to shuttle a few OAPs around.

There would also be objections from all the businesses and employees created as a result of the greenway being so successful:D
Not to mention existing businesses like shopkeepers, pub owners etc whose business levels will increase!

westtip · 17-05-2017 4:53pm

Lets just hope this is something Leo will stick to if he becomes leader and Taoiseach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07kR1YDn9lM

"the western rail corridor was built for political reasons, it never stacked up on economic grounds or on transport policy grounds"

Consonata · 17-05-2017 7:14pm

westtip wrote: »

Lets just hope this is something Leo will stick to if he becomes leader and Taoiseach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07kR1YDn9lM

"the western rail corridor was built for political reasons, it never stacked up on economic grounds or on transport policy grounds"

Don't expect him to do anything in transport. He was Minister for 4+ years and did nothing. All talk.

westtip · 18-05-2017 1:03am

Consonata wrote: »

Don't expect him to do anything in transport. He was Minister for 4+ years and did nothing. All talk.

Well the first thing he might do is appoint a minister for transport.... because we don't seem to have one at the moment.

eastwest · 18-05-2017 8:42am

westtip wrote: »

Consonata wrote: »

Don't expect him to do anything in transport. He was Minister for 4+ years and did nothing. All talk.

Well the first thing he might do is appoint a minister for transport.... because we don't seem to have one at the moment.

I'd say one of the first jobs awaiting a new taoiseach will be finding a hole to stick Ross into. Arts, culture and the gaeltacht sounds about right.

Del.Monte · 18-05-2017 9:11am

eastwest wrote: »

I'd say one of the first jobs awaiting a new taoiseach will be finding a hole to stick Ross into. Arts, culture and the gaeltacht sounds about right.

Just sack him and be done with it.

Consonata · 18-05-2017 9:20am

eastwest wrote: »

I'd say one of the first jobs awaiting a new taoiseach will be finding a hole to stick Ross into. Arts, culture and the gaeltacht sounds about right.

Thats on the presumption that FG have the best intentions when it comes to Transport.

Wouldn't be surprised if they are happy to have Ross in there to take all the flack, since they don't want to particularly do anything in that field.

n97 mini · 18-05-2017 9:24am

Consonata wrote: »

Don't expect him to do anything in transport. He was Minister for 4+ years and did nothing. All talk.

Thought he instructed IE to open the PPT to passenger traffic?

Muckyboots · 18-05-2017 9:37am

Meanwhile, back to topic, while we wait in vain for Sean Canney's promised report and have to listen to waffle and guff about mythical freight from join the dots merchants the WRC continues to crumble into the ground. Shameful.

http://connachttribune.ie/dark-days-quiet-man-station-761

Quackster · 18-05-2017 1:48pm

Hopefully plenty of folk living along the WRC were watching yesterday evening's Nationwide.

What a magnificent amenity the new Waterford greenway appears to be and it's great to see how well used it is and how many jobs it has created so quickly.

Here's hoping it's extended to Mallow sooner rather than later and its success provides the necessary impetus to get greenways rolling across the country, including on the WRC.

JCX BXC · 18-05-2017 2:08pm

The track between Mallow and Dungarvan is effectively gone, vast majority of it is farmland now. Will never be extended beyond Dungarvan.

eastwest · 18-05-2017 3:28pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

The track between Mallow and Dungarvan is effectively gone, vast majority of it is farmland now. Will never be extended beyond Dungarvan.

Once it's extended to Dublin on the Barrow way and grand canal, it will be logical to extend it towards Cork, so I'd say that West of dungarvan is already a plan.

Quackster · 18-05-2017 3:46pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

The track between Mallow and Dungarvan is effectively gone, vast majority of it is farmland now. Will never be extended beyond Dungarvan.

As is Farrenfore to Valentia but that's not an insurmountable obstacle!

Quackster · 18-05-2017 3:55pm

eastwest wrote: »

Once it's extended to Dublin on the Barrow way and grand canal, it will be logical to extend it towards Cork, so I'd say that West of dungarvan is already a plan.

The Youghal line would be out of the question for a number of reasons so routing it to Mallow would make the most sense.

Also having one end (or both if possible) of every greenway connect directly with the rail network world greatly facilitate end-to-end use, especially by tourists, and bolster patronage of the rail network at the same time.

eastwest · 18-05-2017 5:02pm

Quackster wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

Once it's extended to Dublin on the Barrow way and grand canal, it will be logical to extend it towards Cork, so I'd say that West of dungarvan is already a plan.

The Youghal line would be out of the question for a number of reasons so routing it to Mallow would make the most sense.

Also having one end (or both if possible) of every greenway connect directly with the rail network world greatly facilitate end-to-end use, especially by tourists, and bolster patronage of the rail network at the same time.

The aim will be to create a Dublin-Cork link I would think.

Muckyboots · 18-05-2017 5:05pm

Quackster wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

Once it's extended to Dublin on the Barrow way and grand canal, it will be logical to extend it towards Cork, so I'd say that West of dungarvan is already a plan.

The Youghal line would be out of the question for a number of reasons so routing it to Mallow would make the most sense.

Also having one end (or both if possible) of every greenway connect directly with the rail network world greatly facilitate end-to-end use, especially by tourists, and bolster patronage of the rail network at the same time.

As would Athenry & Claremorris on a WRC convert. They understand this in Athenry.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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