Rail capacity in Connolly - Pearse corridor

DerekP11 · 05-10-2007 9:00pm #1

Prompted by a debate in a locked thread (I'll tackle that bit later) the issue of capacity Vs flexibility was raised in terms of which referred to a stations ability to handle more trains.
Kearnsr rolled out this Ration of flow to capacity science book mallarkey, which just sounds like mumbo jumbo to almost everybody. The claim was that Connolly was operating at the maximum permitted 85% capacity and the other 15% is for "flexibility". I can see how people will take flexibility as capability. Its a perfectly acceptable assertion. But as Kearnsr brought "engineering science" into it, I have to pea somewhat on his science.

In your scientific terms, IE may well be operating at the permitted 85% capacity. But I can tell you now that their performance within that 85% is poor and very inefficient. Your 15% "flexibility" is already well eaten into by timetable padding, which actually negates a proactive approach to squeezing trains into the schedule. Baseline figures mean nothing without close examination of working practise. I know IE have spare capacity in Connolly. Why? Because my colleagues and I found it and presented it to IE as a way to introduce Navan services via Drogheda. They didn't deny it existed. In fact they said that the spare slots we had identified were going to be used by extra Drogheda trains. The spare capacity is still there. Its actually basic logistics.

The fact that a Docklands train could be rerouted to Connolly during morning rush hour is more than flexibility. Its a spare slot. Want more? I'll give you more. In 2005 at 5pm on a friday evening, IE terminated a special train from Cork in Connolly station. No problem to them. Why? The had the slot. I could go on citing examples of additional trains terminating in Connolly or Pearse(don't forget the Opera special to Wexford) on a regular basis and during peak hours. The problem with IE is poor management of their resources and a lack of vision. Plain and simple. If you want to believe them go ahead. But they are arse covering bandits. They want money to get to another level before they learn how to manage the level they're at.

And Finally here comes the bit that is going to get me banned.
I have never witnessed such cackhanded moderation than that dished out by Calina. As a moderator you are a joke. You're assertion to lock the thread appears to be based on your agreement with one particular poster. The amount of bias in your decision is sickening. Moderation is not about taking sides and then locking threads. You know jack**** about railways and you'll ban me, so ****ing what. But let the debate continue. Here is where you made an asshole out of yourself in terms of moderation.

Kearnsr
For me the only thing the other morning showed was that there wwas flexibility in the system. If the system was run with that service every moring for a certain time peroid with out any negative effects then yes it would have capacity. If the running off that service had negative effects such as delays else were it wouldnt but neither you nor I are in a postion to justify this so it would seem this will just keep going around and around.

Calina
TBH, from where I am sitting, it doesn't show extra capacity, it shows some redundancy to cater for unexpected events.

However, that's probably irrelevant right now. That being said, having spent rather a lot of time reading this thread today I have come to two conclusions

1) it's going around in circles and
2) it's going around in circles the other way as well.

Then you locked the thread.

Calina doesn't do railways. But if she did, they'd probably be the worst ****ing railways in the world.

Good night folks. I'll be in the sweat box for a few weeks.

murphaph · 05-10-2007 9:55pm

There is evidently plenty of timetable padding going on in IE. How do we know? Because when a train shows up 6 or 8 minutes late at Clonsilla it can still terminate on time at Connolly/Pearse. That means they don't run the trains as fast as permissable. That means it's inefficient.

I would love to see how a german timetabler would schedule things, just for pig iron. "vot do you mean, ze driver from Heuston cannot go to ze Connolly?"
etc. etc.

You summed it up perfectly Derk. Irish Rail (and their political masters of all parties and levels) are arse covering bandits. We have resources which we do not use in the network. They are scared of losing investment if they become more efficient? Grow some balls and come out in public and state it. Tell the people that the DoT starves you of funding if you do a better job. Do something, anything but carry on pretending to run a professional railway.

mikemac · 05-10-2007 10:25pm

murphaph wrote:

I would love to see how a german timetabler would schedule things, just for pig iron. "vot do you mean, ze driver from Heuston cannot go to ze Connolly?"
etc. etc.

Why can't a Heuston driver go to Connolly?

They work for the same company after all and being a train driver by it's nature means visting any train station you are told to go to (with adequate training of signalling if needed)

Or is it a dispute over the PPT?

BendiBus · 05-10-2007 10:40pm

DerekP11 wrote:

And Finally here comes the bit that is going to get me banned.

tbh your rudeness deserves a banning.

Do you think your approach helps to achieve anything? Either on boards or, God forbid, you find yourself representing others at a meeting with Irish Rail or the DoT with manners like that? You'd get slaughtered and set back the cause of the travelling public decades :rolleyes:

But, hey, you'd feel better having given them 'what for'. And that's all that matters.

Ham'nd'egger · 05-10-2007 10:51pm

Derek, regardless of what Calina knows or doesn't know about railways is irrelevant. You need one hell of a kick in your arse, ideally using a steel capped boot, if this is how you carry yourself in a public forum.

What I can say to you is that Platform 11 have one hell of an attitude problem . All we seem to get from P11 is nasty Irish Rail this, bad Irish Rail that. When the answers you get as a group don't suit you, throwing tantrums and whinging about anything and everything is the course you seem happy to take, no issue too trivial if it means getting a cheapshot in. By all means, late trains, poor timekeeping, poor staff experiences etc need to be addressed and need an outlet, but your group are a shame. P11 tell us about Irish Rail having poor PR skills and personal dealing capabilities; they are one very black kettle the way they go on at times.

DerekP11 · 05-10-2007 11:00pm

BendiBus wrote:

tbh your rudeness deserves a banning.

Do you think your approach helps to achieve anything? Either on boards or, God forbid, you find yourself representing others at a meeting with Irish Rail or the DoT with manners like that? You'd get slaughtered and set back the cause of the travelling public decades :rolleyes:

But, hey, you'd feel better having given them 'what for'. And that's all that matters.

I do the meetings. Never a problem. Have done many over the years. Addressed Oireachtas Transport Committee, DOT reps etc etc.My record is impeccable.Your response was exactly what I expected because you think this forum is important and you think my "rudeness" is going to condemn me to the pits of hell in the eyes of IE, Government etc. Sorry, but this forum is not that relevent. My approach from now on will be more forthright, honest and representative of whats really happening, but I also accept that this mickey mouse forum and anything I say on it doesn't mean **** all to the greater scheme of things. So chill out and straighten your bus.

BendiBus · 05-10-2007 11:05pm

DerekP11 wrote:

Your response was exactly what I expected

Drat! I fell into your trap :rolleyes:

because you think this forum is important

I do?

and you think my "rudeness" is going to condemn me to the pits of hell in the eyes of IE, Government etc.

I do.

DerekP11 · 05-10-2007 11:15pm

Hamndegger wrote:

Derek, regardless of what Calina knows or doesn't know about railways is irrelevant. You need one hell of a kick in your arse, ideally using a steel capped boot, if this is how you carry yourself in a public forum.

What I can say to you is that Platform 11 have one hell of an attitude problem . All we seem to get from P11 is nasty Irish Rail this, bad Irish Rail that. When the answers you get as a group don't suit you, throwing tantrums and whinging about anything and everything is the course you seem happy to take, no issue too trivial if it means getting a cheapshot in. By all means, late trains, poor timekeeping, poor staff experiences etc need to be addressed and need an outlet, but your group are a shame. P11 tell us about Irish Rail having poor PR skills and personal dealing capabilities; they are one very black kettle the way they go on at times.

This is how I carry myself in this forum, because its credibility has shot through the floor as of today.

We are now called Rail Users Ireland and anything we have said about Irish Rail is the truth and verifiable. As for our PR skills, you and a few others on this forum I could name, are not what we represent or want to represent.

You can moan and groan all you want about us, slag us off, lecture and pontificate, but this forum is irrelevent, like IRN. It is representative of nothing but wannabe planners, engineers and begrudgers. Nothing I say here tonight would affect our organisation because we are ready, willing and proven in representing ordinary, everyday rail users. We'll be long gone onto our next endeavour while you lot are still bull****ting about us and our approach, pr or whatever. Been there, seen that, done that.

Ham'nd'egger · 05-10-2007 11:39pm

DerekP11 wrote:

This is how I carry myself in this forum, because its credibility has shot through the floor as of today.

We are now called Rail Users Ireland and anything we have said about Irish Rail is the truth and verifiable. As for our PR skills, you and a few others on this forum I could name, are not what we represent or want to represent.

You can moan and groan all you want about us, slag us off, lecture and pontificate, but this forum is irrelevent, like IRN. It is representative of nothing but wannabe planners, engineers and begrudgers. Nothing I say here tonight would affect our organisation because we are ready, willing and proven in representing ordinary, everyday rail users. We'll be long gone onto our next endeavour while you lot are still bull****ting about us and our approach, pr or whatever. Been there, seen that, done that.

I was more thinking of the fact that you are carrying yourself off as being rude, ignorant and generally nasty would scare off pretty much anybody ever thinking of joining your happy band of bitter begrudgers. This is exactly what you charge Irish Rail staff with; is it Monkey See Monkey Do? Or do all these Dail committees that you speak at turn into custard fights as well?:p Where do I sign up?

Of course, me as a transport worker, transport user and transport watcher with 2 years of media training would be of little use to any transport group, no matter what name they use :rolleyes:

gjim · 05-10-2007 11:39pm

Take it easy on the whiskey or whatever you've been imbibing, man. If this thread is still around, you're going to be so embarassed when you re-read it sober.

Such pure and serious self-rightousness is more befitting christian fundamentalists, extreme nationalists and teenage politicians.

It's good entertainment 'though, I'll give you that. Are we witnessing what they call a flounce? Or will you continue to contribute to this worthless and despicable forum?

Guess I'll be on your sh*tlist too for finding your tantrum funny.

BendiBus · 05-10-2007 11:41pm

DerekP11 wrote:

but this forum is irrelevent, like IRN. It is representative of nothing but wannabe planners, engineers and begrudgers.

Jesus, everyone knows it's just a flamin' message board!

However it's publicly accessible, so anything you post here can and may be used against you in the future ( I know that sounds like a police caution

)

Are you sure that's what you want when you're doing your thing up in Connolly or the Department? Or maybe you'll use the same quote about wannabe planners, engineers & begrudgers on the IÉ management when you get upset with them?

DerekP11 · 05-10-2007 11:56pm

Hamndegger wrote:

I was more thinking of the fact that you are carrying yourself off as being rude, ignorant and generally nasty would scare off pretty much anybody ever thinking of joining your happy band of bitter begrudgers. This is exactly what you charge Irish Rail staff with; is it Monkey See Monkey Do? Or do all these Dail committees that you speak at turn into custard fights as well?:p Where do I sign up?

Of course, me as a transport worker, transport user and transport watcher with 2 years of media training would be of little use to any transport group, no matter what name they use :rolleyes:

Bitter begrudgers? What have I begrudged? And don't forget that there are a lot of bitter people out there. When I do the last word, the switchboard lights up with people complaining about and not praising Irish Rail.

Rude and generally nasty..yes.

Ignorant? Could you please explain where my ignorance of anything has been displayed here?

Would you care to divulge your transport occupation and as for your media training, I don't know who you are so can't comment. Easy when you post behind a name that represents a great american breakfast.

murphaph · 05-10-2007 11:56pm

Hamndegger wrote:

Of course, me as a transport worker, transport user and transport watcher with 2 years of media training would be of little use to any transport group, no matter what name they use :rolleyes:

RUI are transport campaigners though. We (I'm a paid up member) want to improve things by bringing the reality of why we have such a ramshackle system to the attention of the general public. If we don't tell them, who will?

DerekP11 · 05-10-2007 11:58pm

gjim wrote:

Take it easy on the whiskey or whatever you've been imbibing, man. If this thread is still around, you're going to be so embarassed when you re-read it sober.

Such pure and serious self-rightousness is more befitting christian fundamentalists, extreme nationalists and teenage politicians.

It's good entertainment 'though, I'll give you that. Are we witnessing what they call a flounce? Or will you continue to contribute to this worthless and despicable forum?

Guess I'll be on your sh*tlist too for finding your tantrum funny.

Stone cold sober. Won't be embarrassed tomorrow. But hang around.Things might get even funnier. I'll continue to contribute until i get banned.

gjim · 06-10-2007 12:08am

But hang around.Things might get even funnier. I'll continue to contribute until i get banned.

Sounds good.

Go get 'em tiger!

John R · 06-10-2007 12:39am

DerekP11 wrote:

Rude and generally nasty..yes.

And you think this is an acceptable attitude from anyone and in particular the PR person of your organisation?

The sad fact is that the first 3 paragraps you posted in this thread are worthy of further discussion and FWIW I generally agree with them. Unfortunately the unpleasant, arrogant and abusive tone of the rest of your posts on this thread mean that the only thing likely to be discussed here is you and your tantrums.

DerekP11 · 06-10-2007 1:09am

John R wrote:

And you think this is an acceptable attitude from anyone and in particular the PR person of your organisation?

The sad fact is that the first 3 paragraps you posted in this thread are worthy of further discussion and FWIW I generally agree with them. Unfortunately the unpleasant, arrogant and abusive tone of the rest of your posts on this thread mean that the only thing likely to be discussed here is you and your tantrums.

Well then so be it. But it wasn't a tantrum. It was merely the truth of what goes on here. Discuss me all you want. Ive nothing to hide. I stand over all I say. Im accountable to a membership and committee. If they say no Derek, I'll take my medicine.I'd gladly and willingly talk about my posts tonight, in any media set up. Thats the difference. I'm prepared to and able to, because my face and my name are directly associated with it. Ive nothing to hide.

As we all know, I'll be banned shortly, so I can then enjoy the freedom of watching without the ability to reply. But my feelings towards the mod will not have changed. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I remember when this forum was a worthwhile endeavour, but now its just a pathetic wasteland of attitudes. Im only guilty of having the nerve to say it. Read over the locked threads that I had no involvement in. They say it all about this forum and the "honchos" that tend to frequent it. The picture it paints is far darker than anything I could portray.

John R · 06-10-2007 1:45am

DerekP11 wrote:

Well then so be it. But it wasn't a tantrum. It was merely the truth of what goes on here. Discuss me all you want. Ive nothing to hide. I stand over all I say. Im accountable to a membership and committee. If they say no Derek, I'll take my medicine.I'd gladly and willingly talk about my posts tonight, in any media set up. Thats the difference. I'm prepared to and able to, because my face and my name are directly associated with it. Ive nothing to hide.

The inference being that the rest of us are just snakes in the grass, untrustworthy because we don't use our full names and stick our faces on posters. :rolleyes:

DerekP11 wrote:

As we all know, I'll be banned shortly, so I can then enjoy the freedom of watching without the ability to reply. But my feelings towards the mod will not have changed. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

If you do not want to contribute to boards then you are free to just stop posting. Making yourself out to be some kind of martyr by purposely posting something that you know will get you banned is just juvenile.

DerekP11 wrote:

I remember when this forum was a worthwhile endeavour, but now its just a pathetic wasteland of attitudes.

What crap, I'd put the informational content of this board up against the P11 forum any day. This is an open board with a wide range of people and opinions, some good and some utter shíte.

IMO what you don't like is that in this instance the general opinion has not agreed with yours, deal with it or just stay on your own little forum where you can be assured of a posse of P11 members to cheer you on.

DerekP11 wrote:

Im only guilty of having the nerve to say it. Read over the locked threads that I had no involvement in. They say it all about this forum and the "honchos" that tend to frequent it. The picture it paints is far darker than anything I could portray.

Post links to the threads you have and explain what your problem is and who it is with, then it can be discussed.

And you haven't answered my question from my previous post.

godtabh · 06-10-2007 9:18am

I'll be back later to defend myself later or just getting in before the lock.

Before I go Derek whats your background? You dont seem to like science and or engineering so I'm assuming you dont have a technical background?

DerekP11 wrote:

It is representative of nothing but wannabe planners, engineers and begrudgers

I'm not a wanabe engineer. I'm a fully paid up one. And while I dont work for Irish Rail I have on several occasions have had cause to work on rail way projects (from a private consultant) or have required to study rail way engineering for other reasons.

And while I'm far from being an expert and can form my own opinion on these things

Calina · 06-10-2007 9:51am

Here is the broadcast from your friendly local moderator. Please cool your jets.

I'd like to point out that I questioned capacity at Connolly, yes, before I locked a circular thread, but I did question it. I also think that I wasn't all that obnoxious or ignorant in asking for further clarification. I wouldn't, per se, see this response as considerate and that, I must confess, disappoints me greatly. It gives me a shocking bad impression of RUI, to be honest.

This thread is already horrifically off topic which is a shame because it could - with a little more judicious use of language - been constructive. However, I am minded to leave it open in the hope that the key points regarding efficient use of resources could be discussed in a sensible manner by anyone around today.

RuggieBear · 06-10-2007 10:58am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

There is a lot more to 'straight talking' than being arrogant and abusive

QFT

murphaph · 06-10-2007 11:02am

IE should do the following-

1) Eliminate all non-DART services over the loop line.
2) Terminate ALL Maynooth/Clonsilla services in P7 at Connolly.
3) Terminate ALL Howth services at Howth Junction (shuttle)
4) Terminate ALL Greystones services at Bray (shuttle)
4) Time Malahide-Bray-Malahide DARTs to depart Howth Junction/Connolly P5/6/Bray to allow rapid transfers between these services-cross platform changes wherever possible at Howth Junction and Connolly. They can do it in Germany.

More changes but more frequent services. The above assumes IE and their masters have seen to ordering enough actual rolling stock-the basis of running a railway like.

markf909 · 06-10-2007 11:08am

Currently there exists the signaling for 12tph, do we have enough rolling stock to sustain a DART every 5 mins?

This would need to be 8 cars a lot of the time to cater for the large influx of pax comming off Mayn and Drog service at Connolly if Murphaph's plan were implemented (Something I think sounds like it should be investigated).

Ham'nd'egger · 06-10-2007 12:22pm

murphaph wrote:

IE should do the following-

1) Eliminate all non-DART services over the loop line.
2) Terminate ALL Maynooth/Clonsilla services in P7 at Connolly.
3) Terminate ALL Howth services at Howth Junction (shuttle)
4) Terminate ALL Greystones services at Bray (shuttle)
4) Time Malahide-Bray-Malahide DARTs to depart Howth Junction/Connolly P5/6/Bray to allow rapid transfers between these services-cross platform changes wherever possible at Howth Junction and Connolly. They can do it in Germany.

More changes but more frequent services. The above assumes IE and their masters have seen to ordering enough actual rolling stock-the basis of running a railway like.

1) Great idea. Then all those assengers from Arklow/Drogheda services will have to changes train to get 1-2 stops down the line and wait for connections; that has got to tempt them off cars if it's more awkward and hard for them to use already overcrowded trains. Meanwhile their empty railcar units will take up extra time sitting on platforms in major railway stations (up to 30 minutes, in extreme cases) or they can move onto sidings, blocking up several block sections as they do so.
2) Ditto point one. This is a platform used for DARTs; I suppose they all can use platform 6 in future, given you will have a service waiting on Platfrom 5:rolleyes: Newcomen junction also boasts Ireland's most dangerous rail curve and worst slope; it is a section that is used in exeptional circumstances.
3+4+5) This idea has a lot of merit though it may put some passengers off using the DART with constant changing of services, especially for short workings. For a Shuttle, extending a DART onwards can often just as practical as basing a sole unit and driver to operate this service, Bray especially.

murphaph · 06-10-2007 12:33pm

Based on your reply I will retort with this:

1) Ok, allow all north<->south railcars across the loop line also. So Drogheda trains would be treated as DARTs effectively.

I would not extend this idea to the Bray-Greystones section as the trouble there is that there is a long single track through the tunnels south of Bray and this can play havoc with the timetable. DART should never have been extended to Greystones in the manner it was (for political gain during a by-election) but that's another matter.

I'm not seeing your problem with dedicating P7 to Maynooth trains. So long as stupid things like letting Rosslare trains sit at P5 for half an hour are eliminated then P5 and P6 would be easily adequate for handling DART services over the loop line (12tph, going to 16tph post DASHII).

popebenny16 · 06-10-2007 12:56pm

murphaph wrote:

Based on your reply I will retort with this:

1) Ok, allow all north<->south railcars across the loop line also. So Drogheda trains would be treated as DARTs effectively.

In effect this is already happening, with services to Maynooth/Longford starting in Bray.

Regarding the issue of Arklow trains going to Connolly, I have already sugegsted the admittedly unpopular solution of stoping them in Pearse.

In relation to John R's points about the RUI's private forums and sections and restrictions on debate in public, the only debate we dont allow is crayonism, which (and i dont know how many times i have to say this) we realised was not of any interest to the general public. sorry, but thats the truth. As for this board (c&t) v our boards in a pissing contest, naturally enough this board covers a lot more than railways. However, for a forum that only does railways (and food, natch) i think a post count of over 20,000 in two years isnt bad going at all.

murphaph · 06-10-2007 1:11pm

popebenny16 wrote:

In effect this is already happening, with services to Maynooth/Longford starting in Bray.

I would stop Maynoth/Longford services going beyond P7 at Connoly however as it would eliminate the conflict with north<->south DART/Commuter trains on the northern line.

popebenny16 wrote:

Regarding the issue of Arklow trains going to Connolly, I have already sugegsted the admittedly unpopular solution of stoping them in Pearse.

They should have been stopped there ages ago tbh. It's this 'trying to be all things to all men' approach that sees Arklow trains reaching Connolly that has the Connolly-Pearse corridor in the state it's in. People will need to get used to changing trains under T21 anyway! So start now.

Some people will be discommoded by my suggestions, but the benefit to the whole will outweigh this by far.

Victor · 06-10-2007 4:09pm

Chill out or there will be bans. Some posts deleted. Thread locked until I have time to review it.

Rail capacity in Connolly - Pearse corridor

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