help

miriam needs advice · 21-12-2014 1:44am #1

story everyone. sorry if its lengthy. ive been with my boyfriend for the past 3 years and he's filled my life with happiness. he is muslim and came here from india to study. he originally came from saudi arabia to india when he was 20. he is now 32 and i am turning 27 in january. from the moment i met him, ive noticed he has been 100% loving to me. HE IS LIKE PRINCE CHARMING 24/7!!!! he listens, he takes notice of things i say, he buys me gifts, he always wants to see me and misses me every second. he is kind, the most caring person i ever met and he is good looking and has a sense of humour. now here comes the issue, for the past couple of months, he has been asking me constantly to marry him as his visa expires in january and he wants to stay here to be with me. he knows i dont feel ready for marriage yet but i do love him and would regret leaving him. ive never met anyone so perfect. but he is constantly stressed for the past few months and on at me nagging for marriage. the cynical voice in my head is starting to doubt if hes only using me for a visa to stay here OR using me to convert me to islam.. i have been very happy every moment ive spent with him but i dont want to be a naive fool who falls for the fake love. ive read so many stories of muslim men wooing western women to convert them to islam or faking love for greencards. i cant help but to wonder is he on his best behaviour until he marries me and then everything will change. all you have to do is google it and theres loads of stories about this happening. as a result of feeling pressured and unsure what to do, ive distanced myself from him for the last month and been quite flaky. i know its horrible the way ive treated him and if it were the other way around, i would probably break up with him yet he STILL wants to marry me..?! is this a warning sign?
also, i would never want to become a muslim. i dont know if i would be forced to in future??? the media has frightened me a lot about islam and his religion just scares me. although, it hasnt impacted me alot so far, i fear it may in the future. how would i feel when my beautiful child is being forced to pray or to be brainwashed by all that...? i mean, i do love the guy and have even read some of the quran to try understand his beliefs. but i simply cannot agree with a religion that says all non believers will burn in hell fire. so all my family would burn? no thanks! if he were irish, i would marry him tomorrow. i wouldnt mind him as he has been for the past 3 years but im worried if things change and he suddenly changed after marriage!! am i stupid to be having these feelings? am i looking for problems where there are none?
his religion hasnt bothered me so far but i fear that islam is always there in the background controlling them. apart from this fear of mine, i love him. thanks for listening. i dont know what to do or where to go from here. should i cop on and treat him as if he were irish? am i brainwashed by bad stories

Tigger99 · 21-12-2014 1:55am

There's nothing perfect about a guy who is trying to pressurise you into marriage when you are not ready yet. How he makes you feel is what matters and no wonder you are stressed.

tara73 · 21-12-2014 2:08am

Tigger99 wrote: »

There's nothing perfect about a guy who is trying to pressurise you into marriage when you are not ready yet. How he makes you feel is what matters and no wonder you are stressed.

exactly. if he loves you he won't pressure you and if he truly loves you he'll wait for you to be ready.
don't let yourself be pressured into marriage.

LegacyUser · 21-12-2014 9:31am

As someone who dated a lovely Muslim man for several years and broke up once I understood what married life would be like, given your doubts about his religion you need to consider what his expectations would be if you had children. Even if you don't convert, if he is in any way religious he will want children brought up as Muslim. Islam is very strict on that. Think about what that would mean, particularly if you had a daughter.
Also, as Muslim men get older and settle down, they tend to revert to the 'lifestyle' much more. My ex used to go out to the pub, have wine at dinner but all that changed, and if we were going to live together there were demands that I give up alcohol, and that there would be none in our home. I started to suspect that was the thin end of the wedge.
Ultimately, while he was a fantastic guy, I didn't want a life for me and any future children to be completely dictated by his religion.

Mick Murdock · 21-12-2014 12:24pm

OP, it's great that you have come here for opinion. As Google has shown you many women do not and end up in a very dark place.

Call me cynical but I would get the hell away from this guy. You would have to convert to Islam to marry him, something you're clearly not comfortable with doing. If he is a devout believer he will not settle for anything less than you and your children being so too. It's fundamentally incompatible with the beliefs most Western people hold.

That's not to say he doesn't like or love you but he will not accept you for who you are and that's not likely to change.

Tell him categorically that you are not marrying him as you are not ready. It's not going to happen. You do not wish to convert to Islam and ask what future he sees for you. I strongly suspect you then see a different side to your Prince Charming.

Judge his reaction to this and you'll soon have your answer.

Don't do it under any circumstances and best of luck.

Buona Fortuna · 21-12-2014 12:43pm

Hi OP

I agree with all the posters above.

I don't really like writing this because I'm usually for:

Giving people a chance
Benefit of the doubt
not judging people by their race or religion

And all of that is fine and good but I think once you have the idea in your head, it will stay with you.

I don't have any idea what he could do to assuage my doubts. Revoke his foreign citezenship? Revoke his religion? Neither of these things are permanent.

I wish you all the very best OP, but I think you've already arrived at the uncomfortable answer to your question.

strobe · 21-12-2014 6:35pm

Christianity teaches that all non believers will burn in hell fire too, just to put that out there...
Islam and Christianity both forbid pre marital sex too. But I'm presuming you have slept together?

Have you spoke to him about whether or not he would want you to convert to Islam?

How adherent is he to his religion, and which sect/flavour of it? Muslims really aren't all that homogenous in their beliefs in my experience. Have you discussed what he actually believes with him? Including any desire for you to convert in the future etc?

LegacyUser · 23-12-2014 12:23am

Hi OP

I have been in a somewhat similar situation, but from the other side - I'm an Irish guy.

According to the Quran and the teachings of Islam, you do not have to convert to Islam to marry him. It is allowed for Muslim men to marry Christian women, and the man is expected to respect his wife's religion. However, the children must be brought up as Muslims.

Conversely, it is NOT allowed for Muslim women to marry Christian men. This is because the man is always the head of the house, and a Christian man would most likely insist that the children be brought up as Christians. Therefore this type of marriage is not allowed.

So, chances are that your partner would see himself as "head of the house" if you get married. Think about what that could mean.

As Person12$ said, you need to fully understand what it means to marry a Muslim. Her advice is very good IMHO (in fact I think I replied to her own thread a few years ago - if it is the same person). Given the doubts that you have, I would recommend that you do not marry him.

I wish you all the best.

stargazer 68 · 23-12-2014 10:25am

Op I lived in the Middle East for many years - Saudi and Bahrain - and I know a lot of Irish/British/American women married to Muslims from these countries. Some of the men are very westernised and continue to stay that way. However there are some who, once married, completely change and reverted to their 'traditional' ways - some being more extreme then others I will say.

What happens if you have children and he decides he wants to return to Saudi to bring them up there? Saudi Arabia is much more strict than say Bahrain or the UAE and would bring a completely different lifestyle to you.

As I said I have friends that are married to lovely Arab men but I have also seen the other side of the coin too so think very carefully.

kylith · 23-12-2014 11:10am

OP, if he loved you he would wait for you to be ready for marriage. He would be willing to have a LDR for the time it took for him to arrange another visa for here. The fact that he is pressurising you, along with stories that I have heard about how some Muslim men change after marriage, would lead me to advise you to run for the hills.

IlmoNT4 · 23-12-2014 11:47am

a visa is not a reason to get married OP.... You should get married because you want to and he wants to and you both want to.... Listen to your gut.

If you did get married

-Would you be ok with going back to his country to live?
-Would you be ok with your kids living in his country?
-Would you be ok with supporting his religion?
-How would you feel if the marriage broke down and your kids ended up in his country?

Dont get sweep away with Mr charming, because thats all he is right now, Mr.Charming..... if this fella really wanted to marry you, he'd be organising another visa so he could stay, not using you as a solution to his visa problems. The fact that hes pressuring you into some thing so important and potentially life changing is not right, and you know this.

kylith · 23-12-2014 11:55am

Just to add - if you are even slightly considering marrying this man tell him in no uncertain terms "I will not be converting to Islam and I will not be raising my children as Muslims" and see what he says about that.

seenitall · 23-12-2014 5:26pm

kylith wrote: »

Just to add - if you are even slightly considering marrying this man tell him in no uncertain terms "I will not be converting to Islam and I will not be raising my children as Muslims" and see what he says about that.

Like others on the thread, I also have seen how some Middle Eastern men with a burning desire for a visa behave when they get an EU girlfriend. IME, their mentality/culture has no problem lying to women through their teeth, all in the name of the ultimate goal, as their cultures (both Arab and Indian ones, may I add) perceive women as inferior beings, children almost, more stupid than men and therefore easiest handled by pacifying them with lies and covert manipulation. And that's when the times are GOOD.

I've seen a vulnerable friend going from not wanting to date a guy, through his sheer pestering persistance starting to date him, via not wanting to marry and then first being manipulated and lied to about 'signing contracts' but actually marrying (as if she's a stupid child) to - actually getting married. So the guy got what he wanted through sheer brazenness, persistence, disrespect and targeting an emotionally vulnerable woman. This is what I don't like about this mentality, although the guy himself is by all accounts good to her in every other way. He is probably an ok person, but it is the mentality of treating women with such disrespect that I can't stand.

I've had a brush with it myself as well in my online dating days, thankfully a brief one.

In view of all this, I would not recommend that the OP take whatever he says now, as a remotely surefire indication of his actions in the future.

Take care, OP, and tread carefully.

ABajaninCork · 23-12-2014 6:16pm

Your story, OP is practically word for word what happened to a friend of mine at home. She met a North African guy on the net. Handsome, charming, all that. He was also much younger than her. She was divorced with a teenage son.

She converted to Islam and married him in his home country. The minute he got to the UK, he switched. Beat my friend like a rug, refused to work, and drank like a fish. My mate had two daughters for him - even fasting through Ramadan whilst pregnant, even though she did't have to. She was already past 40, but he kept on at her to 'give him a son'.

You can guess the rest. The minute her husband got his indefinite leave to remain, he was off. Oh - and she loved and trusted this bloke so much, her kids are wards of court, and another friend has the children's passports...

I'm sharing this so that you really think about what you want. Frankly, the fact the guy's visa runs out in January is a big red flag to me.

Happy Christmas!

LegacyUser · 24-12-2014 1:35am

OP:
I was married to a Muslim man.
You do not have to convert, but it would be expected that your children are brought up Muslim. Mine are, and I still bring them to the mosque for them to pray .
The common perception of Islam in the west is that women are treated like dirt. This is in conflict with what I experienced from visiting his country and being with the family . Nothing would have made me happier and feel more protected than to live like that. The woman is the prize, and the man has to provide everything for his family, down to each pencil the child needs for school....the woman can have her own job and business, and that money is hers, and just hers. Now....that was my own experience. I am divorced for the reason that he had his failings, nothings to do with the religion, nothing at all.

In any case, do not even consider marrying a man for his convenience, it in this case being a visa/passport. Just don't do it. You will always keep it in your head that that was the only reason he married you, regardless of your present feelings of love etc. if he wants you as his wife, he will sort out his own legal position, and will not use this as an easy answer. In any case you have to wait at least 3 months after notifying the authorities of your intention to marry, so his visa will be out and you will get caught out on this and he could be deported.

Truly I wish you the best of luck.
But my advice is to move on.

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 7:00am

OP here

sorry for the long post and if its a bit unorganised, i typed it bit by bit over a few days

Thank you all very much for the advice. The majority of you were leaned towards leaving him. i see all your points and i suppose im lucky to be thinking with my head instead of heart. i do love him very very much but i have been reading negative stories every night just to keep my brain realising that maybe the guy im in love with doesnt really exist. the sad part is that i really do feel my happiest when im around him and i do feel that he really knows me. i agree with Buona Fortuna though that i can NEVER know for fact as he cant revoke his foreign citizenship or his religion! and you are right, the doubt is always at the back of my mind haunting me! when i told him im afraid maybe he is marrying only for the visa, he told me he would have to be with me every year to bring me to the visa office to prove we are still married and if i was not happy with him, he would have to leave.

im so glad that a lot of you understand that i dont feel ready for marriage yet. i was expecting to hear "if you love him and he is your soulmate, why would you not be ready." thats always his argument when i say im just not ready yet. he wonders what the delay is. in his culture, the arranged marriages happen fairly instantly so he doesnt understand couples waiting for years to marry when they love each other.

a lot of you have said that if he loves me he will wait and i do agree but he keeps telling me that he will get deported so he needs to marry me so he can stay here TO BE WITH ME. its a very stressful situation to be in. he says the only way for us to stay together is in my hands. if only i was psychic and could know if he truly loves me or loves what i can do for him.

while i havent had too many problems being myself, i had one day where we went to lunch and i had a salad with ham. he got very annoyed that i was eating the ham in front of him. i stopped eating it half way through.. so that was the one and only time his religion bothered me. like fine if he doesnt want to eat ham, but i dont understand his problem with me eating it....

the reason im having these doubts is because he is so PERFECT for me that i feel he is too good to be true.

thank you strobe for pointing out that christianity also says that nonbelievers will burn in hell. i guess it bothers me with him because most of us here dont let christianity rule our lives. and personally i am agnostic in my beliefs.

what would happen if we were to have children in the future and i refused to let them be raised as muslims?

by the way, he is quite westernised but he does not drink alcohol or eat ham, and he washes after going to the toilet etc. he also washes before praying. seeing him pray makes me sad because i do love him and hate to see him worshipping something that doesnt exist.

kylith, you claim if he loved me he would be willing to do a LDR but according to him, if he goes back home, his parents will find a girl immediately and force him to marry..

hi seenitall, you made a good point when you said how they try to make it seem like a simple thing of "signing contracts" because when he was trying to book our civil marriage, he said to me "all you have to do is show up and sign a piece of paper and nothing will change"

on the other side of my mind, the reason i think he could in fact love me so much is because he has introduced me to all of his family back home over the phone and messages and they all seem very sweet and would be delighted to see us married. his parents are pressuring him a lot to marry me or else marry someone they choose for him. they desperately want to see him married.
i always pictured my kid with him to be gorgeous having mixed parents. can a person really be so good at faking prince charming? i cant imagine it could be easy.

NOW TO UPDATE YOU ON WHAT HAPPENED. i told him how happy hes made me and explained that i dont want him to change but fear he could change after marriage. i told him i felt pressured and unsure what to do so distanced myself. i told him i didnt feel 100% ready for marriage and was overwhelmed with the pressure. i then asked him could he wait for me. his reply was that my decision to stay away and figure out god knows what can lead to a break up and to stop behaving like a kid. he was shocked that i thought he could changed and told me i have known him for years and he hasnt changed. he asked me why im not 100% ready if i think hes my soulmate. he told me that once i lose him i will never be happy in my life and neither will he. maybe hes right. he said im ruining the relationship with my fears.

CaraMay · 24-12-2014 7:04am

He is manipulating you to the end. In a way I think he has been grooming you throughout the relationship to get to this point.

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 7:21am

CaraMay wrote: »

He is manipulating you to the end. In a way I think he has been grooming you throughout the relationship to get to this point.

my gut is divided but the sad part is, lately im starting to think he was grooming me all along. if he was, its absolutely horrible and sickening a thing to do to someone...

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 7:23am

i think if i can find the strength to walk away, i will go for a guy in future who doesnt need anything from me...

CaraMay · 24-12-2014 7:48am

miriam needs advice wrote: »

i think if i can find the strength to walk away, i will go for a guy in future who doesnt need anything from me...

Find the strength? It's not your child you are walking away from, it's a grown man who is trying to con you into marrying him so he can live here.

Brissygirl32 · 24-12-2014 8:04am

To be honest, it sounds like this man should be walking away from you!
3 years is a long time in a relationship and if you didn't see it heading towards marriage etc at both your ages, and this was sonething either of you wanted, then you were just wasting time!
If you are questioning his feelings, your relationship this deeply - then walk - you won't be happy

The Orb · 24-12-2014 8:18am

Sorry but you are being used by him to secure residency, plain and simple. Once he has that he'll be gone, without a doubt. I worked in the immigration service for years and this scenario is all too familiar.

clappyhappy · 24-12-2014 8:23am

Miriam, my heart really goes out to you. What horrible doubts to be having this time of year. Unfortunately I have to agree with all the above posters.
I lived in Dubai for 8 years and had/have many friends who have married Arab men. Honestly it's a 50/50 divide between good and bad results. One very good friend of mine had a really good job there, ran a multi million company, huge responsibility and excellent at her job. Met a local who was in the CID (undercover police), he was fabulous, we all loved him. He socialised with us, took her on foreign hols, best gifts, clothes restaurants etc. they got married and everything changed. She became pregnant straight away, he made her give up her dream job as there was a bit of travel involved. She stopped socialising with us, even meeting up for lunch. Always making excuses to avoid us, she had her second child within a year of the first, he took her and the kids passports off her, whenever we did call to see her, only with his approval and he was always there with us, she was a changed girl. No more fabulous clothes, her enthusiasm for life gone, very fearful of him. After 3 years she tried to return home with the kids, he gave her her passport and told her she could go but the boys were staying. Obviously she didn't. He began hitting her after that, frequently. He goes on holidays to Thailand 2-3 times a year with his friends, and makes no excuses for the purpose of his visits!!! We have now lost contact with her, a few old friends still in Dubai might see her once or twice yearly but she doesn't mix with them, and he is always with her. Her parents are distraught, they have tried to get her back home with the kids, but he always finds out. She can leave but she would never see the kids again. Obviously she had to convert to Islam (his insistence).
I have another friend that is with an Arab chap for 15 years he was married before and doesn't want to again, she certainly doesn't and they are so happy, travelling the world, so happy with each other. She never wanted kids and he has 2 from his marriage so they are both happy.
OP you have your doubts for a reason, don't be rushed into anything, if he truely loves you he will find a way for you to “work". Don't let him try to emotionally blackmail you.... Best of luck and happy Christmas.

kylith · 24-12-2014 11:32am

miriam needs advice wrote: »

the reason im having these doubts is because he is so PERFECT for me that i feel he is too good to be true.

You know what they say; if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.

miriam needs advice wrote: »

what would happen if we were to have children in the future and i refused to let them be raised as muslims?

I get the feeling that you won't have a choice in the matter.

miriam needs advice wrote: »

kylith, you claim if he loved me he would be willing to do a LDR but according to him, if he goes back home, his parents will find a girl immediately and force him to marry..

Honestly, that's his problem, if true, but it could also be a ploy to rush you into making a decision: "You have to marry me RIGHT NOW because otherwise you'll lose out and I'll marry someone else".

miriam needs advice wrote: »

NOW TO UPDATE YOU ON WHAT HAPPENED. i told him how happy hes made me and explained that i dont want him to change but fear he could change after marriage. i told him i felt pressured and unsure what to do so distanced myself. i told him i didnt feel 100% ready for marriage and was overwhelmed with the pressure. i then asked him could he wait for me. his reply was that my decision to stay away and figure out god knows what can lead to a break up and to stop behaving like a kid. he was shocked that i thought he could changed and told me i have known him for years and he hasnt changed. he asked me why im not 100% ready if i thinkhes my soulmate. he told me that once i lose him i will never be happy in my life and neither will he. maybe hes right. he said im ruining the relationship with my fears.

This is classic manipulation, don't fall for it. It's only a mercy that he hasn't started the 'you're so childish and indecisive no-one else would want you' business yet.

If anyone is behaving like a kid it's him: waaah, waah, you have to marry me right now whether your ready or not or else I'm going to take my ball and go home and marry someone else and then you'll be sorry because you'll never be happy again.

Midnight Sundance · 24-12-2014 11:48am

OP if he was a catholic irish man saying you will have to marry me now or else you will lose me forever what would you say? Would you say you are being manipulated? He sounds like a salesman putting pressure on you to buy there and then!!
You need to ask him all those questions yourself regarding children and religion before you consider saying yes.
I wouldn't dream of marrying anyone whom I hadnt ironed these type of things out with!
You've a tough decision ahead, keep your family and friend close and let them help you with your decision

Mick Murdock · 24-12-2014 12:36pm

Miriam, everybody on this thread is telling you to walk away before it's too late.. While it's possible you will not have to convert to Islam (it's a lot more common that you do) this man's children must be raised as Muslims. It's not up for debate even if he tells you otherwise now.

He is using text book manipulation against you but if he truly cared he would not be threatening you like that. If he wanted to marry you he would disobey his family and wait until you're ready. That's not going to happen.

It's a great shame there's no many desperate and naive women out there who are conned into this. Good on you for realising before it's too late. There's plenty of decent men out there for you despite what he may tell you..

If nothing else this country is better off without him. Left his visa expire and good riddance.

Cut contact completely. Immediately.

24-12-2014 5:10pm

miriam needs advice wrote: »

his reply was that my decision to stay away and figure out god knows what can lead to a break up and to stop behaving like a kid. he was shocked that i thought he could changed and told me i have known him for years and he hasnt changed. he asked me why im not 100% ready if i think hes my soulmate. he told me that once i lose him i will never be happy in my life and neither will he. maybe hes right. he said im ruining the relationship with my fears.

Good lord, this is bad manipulation. Bad.
I already thought you should walk away - now I think you should run, and don't look back.
I'm sorry, I'm sure it'll be hard, but you'll end up miserable with someone who thinks it's ok to manipulate you into marrying them for a visa!!
Run away.

Faith · 24-12-2014 5:32pm

Hi Miriam,

Firstly, I want to say that you seem like your head is firmly screwed on. Despite you clearly being in love with him, you're critically evaluating the situation and that's so refreshing to see here. So, well done for that! I know it can't be easy to have such doubts about the man you love.

It does sound like your fears are likely to be correct. It sounds like he's manipulating and controlling you, and the veiled threat about you never being happy again without him is a textbook classic sign of that.

However, what really stood out to me was this paragraph:

miriam needs advice wrote: »

hi seenitall, you made a good point when you said how they try to make it seem like a simple thing of "signing contracts" because when he was trying to book our civil marriage, he said to me "all you have to do is show up and sign a piece of paper and nothing will change"

Can you clarify: was he trying to book a marriage without your consent? That paragraph makes it sound like he's not even being romantic in terms of proposing and planning a wedding that you'd love, but that he's just trying to shove you into a registrar's office to sign a marriage certificate.

As the other posters have suggested, I'd also be extremely wary and I wouldn't rush into anything with this man. It could be perfect, but it could be a disaster. Would you ever be 100% happy if you're always wondering whether he wanted to actually marry you, or just wanted a visa?

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 6:52pm

The Orb wrote: »

Sorry but you are being used by him to secure residency, plain and simple. Once he has that he'll be gone, without a doubt. I worked in the immigration service for years and this scenario is all too familiar.

thanks again everyone for your input. i know its not the end of the world and nobody is dying but its nice to see people care and sympathize.
when you say, once he gets the visa he will be gone, where would he be gone to? why would he want the residency and then to leave? and is it true that he would need me to go with him every year to prove we are still together? i.e. if he leaves me, he loses his residency?

Faith wrote: »

Can you clarify: was he trying to book a marriage without your consent? That paragraph makes it sound like he's not even being romantic in terms of proposing and planning a wedding that you'd love, but that he's just trying to shove you into a registrar's office to sign a marriage certificate.

As the other posters have suggested, I'd also be extremely wary and I wouldn't rush into anything with this man. It could be perfect, but it could be a disaster. Would you ever be 100% happy if you're always wondering whether he wanted to actually marry you, or just wanted a visa?

hi faith, he left his emails open about 2 months ago and i saw an email with my full name in the subject line along with his. i had a look and it was an enquiry about dates for a civil marriage ceremony. i panicked after i saw that. i never agreed to it but i think he was hoping id come around to the idea. i think his plan was to organise it all and hopefully by the time the notice period was up, i would be ready... i think even planning the ceremony ridded him of some stress. i did tell him i wanted to be with him forever, throughout the relationship and that i see us having a child in future but i told him i wasnt ready for marriage and that i had my fears. he wanted everything straight away whereas i was happy to see it "in the future". i think i am leaning more towards keeping my distance for now anyway and maybe my heart will distance too..

Stavro Mueller · 24-12-2014 7:19pm

miriam needs advice wrote: »

...
hi faith, he left his emails open about 2 months ago and i saw an email with my full name in the subject line along with his. i had a look and it was an enquiry about dates for a civil marriage ceremony. i panicked after i saw that. i never agreed to it but i think he was hoping id come around to the idea. i think his plan was to organise it all and hopefully by the time the notice period was up, i would be ready... i think even planning the ceremony ridded him of some stress. i did tell him i wanted to be with him forever, throughout the relationship and that i see us having a child in future but i told him i wasnt ready for marriage and that i had my fears. he wanted everything straight away whereas i was happy to see it "in the future". i think i am leaning more towards keeping my distance for now anyway and maybe my heart will distance too..

If I had any doubts at all that you should walk away from this guy, this paragraph was the clincher. It's very obvious to me that this guy's after his visa and is trying to steamroll you into marrying him. You are giving him plenty of cause for optimism I see, what with that talk of wanting to be with him forever and having a child with him.

Everything about this stinks to the high heavens. It's not going to be easy for you to walk away and I've no doubt he is going to do everything in his power to talk you around. You need to be strong because I can see this ending very badly for you.

Someone earlier in the thread said that if something's too good to be true, it is. I very much agree with this. There are people out there (and I include Irish people in this) who are very good at being "perfect" until they get what they want. I don't want to tar people with broad brushstrokes but it is very much in this guy's interest to be "perfect" and get his visa. He wouldn't be the first person from that part of the world to pull this stunt.

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 7:43pm

OP here, i just got a text from him and nearly cried. he said he is in a depression since i distanced myself. i havent met him in over 2/3 weeks now. he sounds very sad and he invited me for christmas eve dinner. he said his heart would be broken in bits if i turned down the dinner which he prepares for me every year..

i dont feel like going to dinner when my head is all over the place. it would just throw me back under the spell even further. but if he is genuinely hurt, im the worlds biggest bitch

on another note, why would he tell his family all about me if he didnt love me? i thought the con artist types would keep it secret

24-12-2014 8:03pm

I'd say the family would be in on it too. Could be advantages to it for them

Sorry OP I know it's hard esp this time of year but you need to listen to your head that's telling you it's off

Stavro Mueller · 24-12-2014 8:16pm

Oh I'd say he's in a depression alright. Depressed that he's going to have to find another gullible Irish girl to work his charms on.
As for his family, I would be amazed if they weren't in on this. They could be the ones pulling the strings and advising him for all you know.

ABajaninCork · 24-12-2014 9:15pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd say the family would be in on it too. Could be advantages to it for them

Correct.

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

Oh I'd say he's in a depression alright. Depressed that he's going to have to find another gullible Irish girl to work his charms on.
As for his family, I would be amazed if they weren't in on this. They could be the ones pulling the strings and advising him for all you know.

Correct again. Once Boyfriend gets his stay, he will be expected to financially support his family. That is his culture. He will also be expected to facilitate members of his family coming over either for extended periods of time or to try for a stay. No wonder his family are keen for him to marry. In the OP's case, they don't care she's not Muslim. Not ideal, but can be worked around - i.e. swift (they think!) divorce.

Of course, I could be wrong. I really hope I am. But somehow, I don't think so...

tara73 · 24-12-2014 9:15pm

miriam needs advice wrote: »

OP here, i just got a text from him and nearly cried. he said he is in a depression since i distanced myself. i havent met him in over 2/3 weeks now. he sounds very sad and he invited me for christmas eve dinner. he said his heart would be broken in bits if i turned down the dinner which he prepares for me every year..

OP, read this again and try to detach yourself emotionally from it if possible.
can you see what it is? it's all about him and he's, as usual, putting pressure on you and manipulating you. he's depressive, his heart is broken, he prepares the dinner for you...

was there any question how you're doing?

I really hope you stay strong and don't give in to his manipulative games.

miriam needs advice · 24-12-2014 9:50pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Correct.

No wonder his family are keen for him to marry. In the OP's case, they don't care she's not Muslim. Not ideal, but can be worked around - i.e. swift (they think!) divorce.

i know he was also planning to convert me in the past. we were going to go to india a year ago to visit his family and he told me we would have to get engaged as relationships are forbidden so the relatives would frown if i was alone with him unless we got engaged. at the time, i felt ok with this as i thought we could have a long engagement. he told me his parents would also get me to just recite a few lines. i later came to know those lines would make me muslim? bit weird. anyway that trip never happened. but just to let you know, his family may have wanted me in the family if they were planning to convert me

tara73 wrote: »

OP, read this again and try to detach yourself emotionally from it if possible.
can you see what it is? it's all about him and he's, as usual, putting pressure on you and manipulating you. he's depressive, his heart is broken, he prepares the dinner for you...

was there any question how you're doing?

I really hope you stay strong and don't give in to his manipulative games.

thank you VERY much for this. this really helped me a lot. you are totally right!!! he has made it all about HIS feelings. i didnt realise until you pointed it out. i replied and told him that i cant come tonight as i have to spend time with relatives. to avoid being put on a guilt trip, i explained that christmas is more important to them because hes not even christian... he then begged me to just call over for 2 minutes as he has a giant bag of presents for me!! (see the kindness!!!!!) i asked him why did he go to so much effort after all my distance and he said he doesnt know if we will be together next christmas so doesnt want to end in a bad way. he said he wont ask me any questions and has no expectations for a wedding or anything anymore.
and finally he said its been so hard being away from me and begged me to just show my face and it would be his best christmas gift ever.

im sorry for filling you all in on so many details but my head is all over the place and you are really helping me to see this situation clearer, from people who dont have their heart involved.

ABajaninCork · 24-12-2014 9:56pm

miriam needs advice wrote: »

i know he was also planning to convert me in the past. we were going to go to india a year ago to visit his family and he told me we would have to get engaged as relationships are forbidden so the relatives would frown if i was alone with him unless we got engaged. at the time, i felt ok with this as i thought we could have a long engagement. he told me his parents would also get me to just recite a few lines. i later came to know those lines would make me muslim? bit weird. anyway that trip never happened. but just to let you know, his family may have wanted me in the family if they were planning to convert me

You don't say?? Of course they wanted you in the family. I can't stress this enough - This guy and his family are a bunch of chancers. Liars too. Doesn't matter whether he has a giant bag of presents or not. Get rid. It'll be more than presents you're getting if you stay...

IlmoNT4 · 24-12-2014 10:07pm

A bag of presents isnt kindness OP....I know a person whose partner buys her loads of presents, clothes, perfume anything she wants, big house etc...he also beats her up, is emotionally cruel and has made her life a living misery.

Kindness is not physical material things, it how someone treats you, looks out for you and doesnt put their needs above yours.

Stavro Mueller · 24-12-2014 10:12pm

miriam needs advice wrote: »

...he told me his parents would also get me to just recite a few lines. i later came to know those lines would make me muslim? bit weird. anyway that trip never happened. but just to let you know, his family may have wanted me in the family if they were planning to convert me

I know absolutely nothing about Islam but if someone tried to pull a stunt like that on me, I'd never trust them again. Becoming a Muslim by saying those few lines sounds unlikely but you never know.
Edit: It also goes to show how desperate he is to marry you. If he got to the engaged stage, he'd be pushing an open door and marriage'd not be a giant leap from there.

He then begged me to just call over for 2 minutes as he has a giant bag of presents for me!! (see the kindness!!!!!) i asked him why did he go to so much effort after all my distance and he said he doesnt know if we will be together next christmas so doesnt want to end in a bad way. he said he wont ask me any questions and has no expectations for a wedding or anything anymore.
and finally he said its been so hard being away from me and begged me to just show my face and it would be his best christmas gift ever.

Oh pur-lease. Why wouldn't he give you lots of nice pressies? He's trying to get a visa for crying out loud. You're well worth the financial outlay. Buying someone gifts can be a hollow meaningless exercise. You're surely not that naive, are you?

ABajaninCork · 24-12-2014 10:23pm

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

I know absolutely nothing about Islam but if someone tried to pull a stunt like that on me, I'd never trust them again. Becoming a Muslim by saying those few lines sounds unlikely but you never know.

Unfortunately, this is true. My youngest brother converted to Islam. Same goes for divorce, AFAIK.

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

Oh pur-lease. Why wouldn't he give you lots of nice pressies? He's trying to get a visa for crying out loud. You're well worth the financial outlay. Buying someone gifts can be a hollow meaningless exercise. You're surely not that naive, are you?

Sadly yes. I would agree with this. It's a small price to pay for the main prize. And I am sorry to say Miriam, it isn't you. It's your nationality...

In the interests of balance - other nations do this too. I've seen it with West Indians at home, and fellas have tried the same rubbish with me in Barbados. And I am no Naomi Campbell!! Same identical schtick. It's so obvious, you can only laugh...

ABajaninCork · 24-12-2014 10:52pm

As a matter of interest - Is residency automatic if an alien marries an Irish national? I know it isn't in the UK but not sure about here.

Taltos · 25-12-2014 8:08am

Mod Note:
Post deleted and is currently under discussion by the mod team. Can I please remind posters to only post as per the charter - constructive advice and with civility.

Stavro Mueller · 25-12-2014 10:42am

OP, let's pretend you have a business and you find out you've got the chance of landing a really great potential client. Someone who'd be worth a lot of money to your business, would be prestigious to have your books etc. So the question is - what do you do? I think you can see where this is going, can't you? You'd pull out all the stops to land them. Aside from putting forward the strongest possible business case, you'd be doing everything you could to charm them into choosing you. You'd wine them, dine them, tell them what they want to hear, laugh at their jokes, listen patiently to their neverending repertoire of boring anecdotes. All because your eye's on the bigger prize.....

I'm a big believer in going with your gut instinct. I can see you're torn between your heart and the evidence which is telling you things you don't want to hear. The situation was enough to make you start a thread here on boards. What does that tell you?

tinkerbell · 25-12-2014 7:08pm

OP, run for the hills. Your guy instinct is usually right so you should trust your instinct. Reading some of the other posters experience on this thread is very scary stuff. It is simply not worth the risk.

StormWarrior · 25-12-2014 8:21pm

You know what would terrify me? If you got married and then he took you or your future kids on holiday to Saudi Arabia and never allowed you to return. Have you read "Not without my daughter"?

Flippyfloppy · 26-12-2014 12:16pm

I'm going to go against the grain here OP. Just read your opening post again- where you stated he is kind, caring, takes notice etc and has managed to be that way for 3 years. Is this true when you really think about it, or can you think of more bad times now that you're seperate from him?

I do know a woman myself who has had a bad ordeal with a guy she married who happened to be Muslim. He promised her he would do a Christian ceremony right after the Islam one, and immediately refused to, so the problems really started as soon as the knot was tied. She has two daughters with him and now they are teens she is worried he will take them to his home country to be married.

I'm not blind to the fact that due to cultural differences and whatnot some of these marriages don't work out, but I have to say I'm uncomfortable with what I see as a mass generalization on this thread against marrying all Muslim men due to the anecdotes & horror stories that (admittedly) a lot of people have.

However you haven't really seen him for 3 weeks, you're doing that due to your gut which is always good. I understand what abajanincork or stavro said about how you would treat a business client, however I'm not sure how one could keep up the kind and caring persona for three years?

Abyway the only advice I can offer is to let nature take its course, which is already happening. Keep your distance, see what Happens with his visa. Definitely Don't marry him, as you're not ready yet- you want it to be sure its for the right reasons. Even if you did marry him, a visa wouldn't be automatically granted!

LegacyUser · 27-12-2014 9:46pm

Hi OP

Just adding my 2 cents, years ago a friend of ours met an Egyptian guy on a night out.
They got chatting and ended up going out pretty quick, for the next while we all hung out going drinking every weekend etc.
Anyway, over time their relationship began to change, first he kinda stopped drinking alchol and smoking, encouraged her to aswell. Before long he kept a close eye on her all night, esp when she was up dancing or chatting to anyone outside our group.
They sometimes had arguments outside he was v jealous and there was more than a few lover tiffs.
Think he put her under a lot of pressure to mend her "irish" ways.
there was i think some mild physical abuse i think too, my GF at the time tried to tell her to dump him and move on. But like you say he was charming, and told her he had an uncle of an uncle who was supposedly rich and that kept her dangling too.
Long and short of it was she stopped going out altogether, he got her to become muslim eventually.
I remember their wedding day (they got married quick enough - like you there were "visa" issues.)
we offered to be witnesses and we all went to the registery office (just the 4 of us), did the deed and back to their rented home. the two girls were all excited naturally and wanted to enjoy the day. But - no word of a lie, the husband left her at the house and went into the city to party with his own mates and "celebrate" his then pending Irish citizenship. I'll never forget that day and felt sorry for her, we didnt end up staying long in the end and i think she was a bit sad. Her own parents didnt turn up either as they didnt like the guy. Kids (lots) soon followed and she now has to wear the full black clothing - burka? outside.
think their marraige broke down a number of years later.

lost contact with her, but there were always rumours of further strife and problems.
Felt sorry for her as she was one of the most outgoing, friendly girls in the pack and just bumped into this guy by total chance it could have been any girl.

kylith · 29-12-2014 12:35pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I'm going to go against the grain here OP. Just read your opening post again- where you stated he is kind, caring, takes notice etc and has managed to be that way for 3 years. Is this true when you really think about it, or can you think of more bad times now that you're seperate from him?

I do know a woman myself who has had a bad ordeal with a guy she married who happened to be Muslim. He promised her he would do a Christian ceremony right after the Islam one, and immediately refused to, so the problems really started as soon as the knot was tied. She has two daughters with him and now they are teens she is worried he will take them to his home country to be married.

I'm not blind to the fact that due to cultural differences and whatnot some of these marriages don't work out, but I have to say I'm uncomfortable with what I see as a mass generalization on this thread against marrying all Muslim men due to the anecdotes & horror stories that (admittedly) a lot of people have.

However you haven't really seen him for 3 weeks, you're doing that due to your gut which is always good. I understand what abajanincork or stavro said about how you would treat a business client, however I'm not sure how one could keep up the kind and caring persona for three years?

Abyway the only advice I can offer is to let nature take its course, which is already happening. Keep your distance, see what Happens with his visa. Definitely Don't marry him, as you're not ready yet- you want it to be sure its for the right reasons. Even if you did marry him, a visa wouldn't be automatically granted!

I think that people would be saying the same thing in this situation regardless of the nationality of the guy. Wanting to get married ASAP because of visa issues, telling her that if she doesn't do it now he's going to marry someone else, attempting to book a ceremony without consulting her (presumably in the hope that if it's presented as a fait accompli she'll go along with it); these are all massive, massive warning signs regardless of his country, religion or culture of origin.

And I wouldn't get too sucked in by 'he's been nice for years' either. All manner of nasty pieces of work from murderers to abusers have fooled their friends and families for years on end into thinking they were lovely people.

threebagsfull · 30-12-2014 5:35am

miriam needs advice wrote: »

when i told him im afraid maybe he is marrying only for the visa, he told me he would have to be with me every year to bring me to the visa office to prove we are still married and if i was not happy with him, he would have to leave.

He told you this, but you have you verified it yourself? It sounds too thorough to me. Consult the visa office. And just imagine if he is emotionally or physically abusing you down the line, how he might use your kids to threaten you. I know someone in a very unfortunate situation who fears for the safety of her child as her OH is very abusive towards her and took the child on her several times. If you were scared enough, you might vouch for him.

we went to lunch and i had a salad with ham. he got very annoyed that i was eating the ham in front of him. i stopped eating it half way through.. so that was the one and only time his religion bothered me. like fine if he doesnt want to eat ham, but i dont understand his problem with me eating it....

This is how it starts. He's a minority who has knowingly moved to a non-muslim country, aware of the fact we ordinarily eat ham, and he expects other people not to eat it in his presence. Does he think he's some sort of royalty? Imagine what it would be like when the mask is off.

by the way, he is quite westernised but he does not drink alcohol or eat ham

They learn how to walk the walk and talk the talk but there's a lot more to being westernised than that, not that I think being Western is key, but if he doesn't even drink now he's likely to have a problem with you drinking when you're supposed to be his obedient wife, showing him respect.

seeing him pray makes me sad because i do love him and hate to see him worshipping something that doesnt exist.

I think you're missing the point. None of us know whether there is a God and which religion is "right", if any. It's not about his religious beliefs, it's about his culture. Your concern should be how he might force his culture on you and your children.

With some men, it seems the goal is to get a visa and have a woman to act as an incubator and once they have a son, the woman is dispensable.
His family are more than likely aware of it, and encouraging his pursuit of you, because having a close family member in an EU country is a huge asset if you're in a place that finds it hard to get visas.

I bet they're not going to force him to marry someone if he goes home. They just want to add a sense of urgency to the situation so you are rushed into a bad decision. "Marry me now or never see me again!".

If he is a decent guy, he'll sort his situation out and you'll be together. But I think he's trying to come up with a million reasons why marriage is the only way.

LegacyUser · 30-12-2014 4:26pm

Hi OP,

I have to say, i'm really impressed with your critical evaluation on this.

I used to go out with a Muslim man who was similar to the person you describe, charming, loving, etc. He already had residency through a previous marriage (admitted to me while drunk one night that he married for a visa) so i didn't have the urgency or pressure that you have now.

We were together for years, he drank, ate ham, didn't observe ramadan, and claimed to be atheist but very slowly the decent person i fell for disappeared and a controlling, manipulative, misogynistic individual materialized. He no longer drank, ate pork, he wanted to observe Ramadan because 'not for religious- but for cultural reasons', but never had the willpower to see it through. He happily introduced me to his family, who were all lovely, but clearly wanted me to convert.
It just kept going downhill to the stage i wasn't allowed out anymore, and i was asking his permission for everything. He considered himself the head of the house and ANY major decisions that included me were his to make.

I left him after a few years and then found out i was pregnant. So i returned to my home country to have the baby. We had tried again for the duration on the pregnancy and he was on best behavior for that, but there was a constant alarm bell going off in my head that nothing was as it seemed. I ended up not returning to where we lived to get away as he had scared me sufficiently by threats he made.

Now things are a bit easier, this was a few years ago, i will always have the worry of him taking the child to his home country and keeping him there (one of the many threats he made), i don't know how the future will be, where i have to explain to my son that he can't see his paternal grandmother, aunts, cousins. I don't know if my son will resent me for preventing this, he won't be able to speak his fathers native language, or to experience his culture for himself.

I have a constant, low level paranoia, and this is the absolute best case scenario as i escaped him and didn't go back. This is as good as I can hope for.

Now this is obviously a horrible example, but a red flag for me is the highly manipulative manner in which your boyfriend speaks to you- it's SO similar. The organizing of the wedding without your knowledge, the attempt at conversion- WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

I think you should run

K.Flyer · 31-12-2014 7:00pm

Hi O.P.
I have read all of your posts and most of the replies and just wanted to add my thoughts..
There is an old saying .. Love is Blind, and Marriage is an Eye Opener! and this guy has been blinding you with kindness and gifts to, in my opinion, lead you up the garden path.
In your first post relating to his anxiousness to get married before his visa expired was the first red flag, if he loved you truly, he wouldn't hesitate to give you all the time you needed to decide.
The next thing that struck a chord was not wanting YOU to eat ham in front of him. Very much the thin edge of the wedge there, its not as if you were doing drugs or getting drunk, and yet he persuaded you to stop. Not a good sign.
More worrying was the making of arrangements, without your knowledge; or consent, with the registery office for a civil ceremony. How conceited and contriving of him to expect you to trust him after that stunt.
But the most worrying of all was the trip planned to visit his family and to tell you that that you just needed to recite a few lines in front of his family.
Does this look familiar...

Converting to Islam is to declare and testify that:
There is no God except Allah;Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.
La ilaha il-Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasulullah

if it does, then you would have been declaring yourself as a convert to Islam. And if it was, then he is out to deceive and manipulate you in a big way.
From what you have posted I don't believe for one minute that he has your best interests at heart. He has dictated to you about what you can eat and from the sounds of it tried to trick you into converting to Islam.
He is not what he is portraying himself as and you need to get away from him. He will start to show his true colours as he gets closer to the deadline, and I bet you will start to see his true persona then.
Turn, walk away and don't look back.

help

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