Essentially being forced to do free overtime

LegacyUser · 26-07-2010 1:41pm #1

Hoping somebody good with employment law can help me with this.

Right, so I've been working on checkouts in a supermarket for a number of years now and never had any trouble with management. I've never been late, only had 2 sick days last year and 1 this year, never been given warnings or any of that kinda thing. I'm pretty flexible in terms of working hours and days and I'm pretty agreeable if managers need me to change my shift on short notice because other people are sick or whatever.

A few months ago, there was a bit of a reshuffle with managers and as part of this we got a new manager from a different department. I wasn't bothered by this as I just go in, do my work, keep my head down and go home so whoever manages me shouldn't be an issue.

My problem is this though. When you work on the checkouts it's very hard to time when to start closing off for your break or when you're going home. So often times you'll end up with a customer or two left at your till when it's past your finish time/break time. I kept note of the times I clocked in one of the days over the weekend and it shows this perfectly.
I clocked into work 11 minutes before I was due to start (Like I said, I'm always early)
I clocked out for my break 19 minutes later than it started (Fair enough, I had to get my sambos so a few of those weren't on a checkout)
I clocked back in after my back 7 minutes before I was due back (If you're not back on your till at the hour, they'll start giving out and I really just don't want any trouble)
I clocked out of work 12 minutes late.

Over the past number of years I've just been like "Right, whatever, forget it" to myself not wanting to rock any boats. A lot of other employees wouldn't be like this. Some would be the other extreme of going early and coming back late. Anyway, one day last week being fed up after a 9 hour day, I had two customers with trolleys full of shopping to get through at 7 minutes to go. I told the next customer to come to my till I was closing. Quick as a shot, my manager was over: "No, you're not! It's only 7 minutes to". True, but with two more customers, a till to tidy and all the money to sort out and send to the office. I just said nothing to her and ended up getting off late again.

If they want to play a numbers game, so do I. And I'm sorry if this sounds petty on my part, but this company at one time would dock employees 1/60th of an hours wages if they clocked in a minute late.

So, what do you think I should do? Is there any way I could try and claim they owe me for the minutes I work after my shift? I know if it was simply done, everyone could just clock out really late to get paid more. Is there anywhere I can complain to? What should I do?

razzler · 27-07-2010 12:38am

Hi, surprised nobody has replied to your post yet, your situation happens to soooo many staff. I work in a supermarket and sometimes we have no relief come finishing time and are told to close off instead, uaually a few minutes after we're supposed to finish. A few trollies can take 10-15 mins, longer if a customer has any problem. But if we inform HR we get paid an extra 15 mins. But having said that it's my type of contract. Those on another type of contract will not get paid and they make sure they close 10 mins before time, then organise cash and clock out on time. Nobody wants to work for free. Sometimes manager grumbles about this but don't put the foot down on it. I suppose that's because they know they can't reasonably tell staff to work for free, they'd be lynched by half the staff.
Check to see what's in your contract. And your manager seems like he's more concerned about keeping queues short than treating staff like human beings with lives to lead.

D.McC · 27-07-2010 4:07am

I have no direct experience of this type of work, but I have to agree with razzler.

When I worked for an hourly rate, the only thing I made sure to do was start on time and finish on time.

I wonder how the manager in question would respond if you only arrived at your till at spot on the start time, and then started to prepare yourself for the day.

In this case I would be inclined to tell the manager that you start at X and finish at Y and finishing at Y doesn’t mean closing down, it means clocking out at that time.

LegacyUser · 27-07-2010 11:50am

Firstly, thanks for the replies

.

With regards to what's in my contract, I actually don't have one to check. When I started work there I was taken on as summer staff on a three month contract. I signed that contract when I started and was told I'd be given a copy of it but never actually got it. After the three months were up, they took me on permanently because of my flexible working hours but I was never given a new contract to sign. So, I don't really want to draw anybody's attention to this in case it somehow goes against me.

D.McC, they've actually said to us that if our shift is say 12 to 9 we should be on the till at 12, start closing at 4 for our break (not be closed, but only start closing), be back on the till at 5, have our tea break after clearing the time of it with the manager or supervisor sometime between now and being off, back onto the till and again start closing at 9. It's totally one-sided. It's all take and no give.

shoegirl · 27-07-2010 8:44pm

Its tough going but I worked in one company where if we were not logged into our PCs with all the right apps started within 15 seconds of start time, we got a big red mark!

That said, I wouldn't mind losing 5-10 minutes a day, compared to the 3-6 hours a week I had to work later on unpaid because of the pressures of the job (while gritting my teeth as a dumb colleague trailed in 30-45 minutes late, and often worse, almost every single day as if it was the most normal thing in the world).

chappy · 27-07-2010 9:01pm

hey I've worked in different retail jobs for over 7 years now and I am now in management the past 3 years.

This has come up a lot over the years with people being rostered until closing time but then be caught with a lingering customer or time down not being complete.

In my previous company as staff I spoke to my union about this and since becoming a manager in a new company have approached HR with the same queries for my staff.

There is legislation there that should tasks run upto 15 minutes over then staff would be expected to stay on to complete tasks.A lot of this is to with the fact that if a manger is working off a budget of hours you can not take in to account a few minutes here and there but at the same time the manager would be strung up if they went over their budget.

I don't necessarily find this fair having been a staff member myself and hence roster my staff until 15 minutes after closing time to allow for last customers and tidy downs.

I do not think that if it is a reasonable amount of time (eg 10 minutes) that you will get anywhere.

I would definately suggest getting a contract though because if there is a time you wish to complain about something they may find it a lot easier to get rid of you without due course being followed.
Oh the joys of retail!!!

Hope this has been some help...

Mimojo · 27-07-2010 10:52pm

Just read your post, and you are dead right to be annoyed over this.

I recently started in a supermarket, and worked for a number of weeks on the checkout. I was then moved to another section, but while on the checkout experienced this exact problem.

We had to be at our checkout on the hour, say you are starting at 12, so you had to be at least 10 minutes early, by the time you go to your locker etc, and then got your till for the supervisor, counted your coins from money bags (which they insisted you do by the way), and open your till.

At the end of the day staff were rostered on for an extra 15 minutes. However major problems occurred for all other shifts that were finishing throughout the day. Often your till was just closed off, and there was not another staff member to take over your checkout. You were expected to continue to serve until the exact time you were ment to finish, and of course it always went over. I often had customers seriously annoyed when I told them I was closing, and on a couple of occasions got some harsh words. If the checkout supervisor was busy at the time you were closing, you could easily work well over your time without anyone noticing. You then have to count your cash etc and close the till, then leave you till into the office. I can honestly say I always ended up working at least 10 minutes over, if not 15 and even 20. We only ever got paid for the hours that you were roastered for, not a minute more. We also had to sign in and out for our breaks (15 minutes) and lunch (30 minutes) and you had to sign out before you went to buy something, so usually your lunch was about 20 minutes. If you did go over on your breaks your wages were docked!

I know to some it doesn't seem like a big deal, but all of those extra minutes do add up over weeks and months. Also the rate of pay may not be great, so a bit of extra pay would be handy if you did the work. In my previous job I did do plenty of extra hours, the different I guess was that the rate of pay was really good, and if I needed time off or took time in lieu it was no bother.

I really think if your HR department are approachable at all they should be approached about this, and some kind of agreement put in place. Also if you could get something in your contract to deal with this it should sort it out.

razzler · 28-07-2010 2:27pm

Where I work, if I'm rostered untill say 6, then told at 6 there's no relief, I can easily be clocking out at 6:15 by the time I finish my queue and dael with my cash. If that happened every day and I wasn't paid for those 15 mins each day it it can amount to quite a bit over time. 1hr 15 mins unpaid each week amounts to Euro65 each calander month on my rate of pay. Too right I'll insist on being paid.

Tourman · 28-07-2010 4:11pm

Your contract of employment should clarify the issue. If you don't have one your employer is in breech of current employment legislation Your contract should tell you what is expected of you and method of calculating pay.

I would warn against being too rigid but on the other hand let your superior know that you work these additional minutes keep dropping the term swings and roundabouts and that you are sure that they would assist in extra breaktime in lieu of time worked when required. You know you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Being a push over will not benefit you in the long run but neither will being too rigid

LegacyUser · 28-07-2010 6:20pm

Thanks again for the replies

.

boozelerooze wrote: »

We had to be at our checkout on the hour, say you are starting at 12, so you had to be at least 10 minutes early, by the time you go to your locker etc, and then got your till for the supervisor, counted your coins from money bags (which they insisted you do by the way), and open your till.

At the end of the day staff were rostered on for an extra 15 minutes. However major problems occurred for all other shifts that were finishing throughout the day. Often your till was just closed off, and there was not another staff member to take over your checkout. You were expected to continue to serve until the exact time you were ment to finish, and of course it always went over. I often had customers seriously annoyed when I told them I was closing, and on a couple of occasions got some harsh words. If the checkout supervisor was busy at the time you were closing, you could easily work well over your time without anyone noticing. You then have to count your cash etc and close the till, then leave you till into the office. I can honestly say I always ended up working at least 10 minutes over, if not 15 and even 20. We only ever got paid for the hours that you were roastered for, not a minute more. We also had to sign in and out for our breaks (15 minutes) and lunch (30 minutes) and you had to sign out before you went to buy something, so usually your lunch was about 20 minutes. If you did go over on your breaks your wages were docked!

Jesus, that's really harsh on you!

. I don't want to say too much about my own company's procedures in case somebody from work reads this, but the breaks thing isn't as bad for us. We're allowed buy things before we clock out for lunch. We're the same regarding the roster and being paid. They don't care how late you actually get out the door, you're still only paid for the hours on the roster.

Definitely going to look into getting a contract. I'm a bit worried though so hopefully somebody can clarify this for me. Like I already mentioned, when I first started I was on a temporary contract for 3 months (the 3 months was specified verbally, but it does have the word "temporary" handwritten on the front but with no indication of how long for). I'm positive they've this contract that I signed because it was filed away in front of me after I signed it. But after I was taken on permanently, I was never given a new contact to sign. So, if I go and request a copy of my contract, they're only going to see the temporary contract. Could they then dismiss me because technically there's no proof I was offered a permanent position? Like, could they say that "temporary" was from then to now?

chappy · 30-07-2010 3:22pm

If somebody is on a fixed term or temporary contract the final date must be specified in the contract.Verbal agreements and a hand written note do not fulfil this obligation.

If this is the case that this was not specified then your original contract still stands as your terms of employment.

Essentially being forced to do free overtime

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