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New militarized flu spreading like wildfire in Mexico City

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    nodolan wrote: »
    Blindpew there's a really useful facility on these boards called an 'Ignore List'.

    You should try it ;)

    Yup the wink makes all the difference. :(

    There is unbridled scaremongering going on here, that's not to say the situation shouldn't be taken very seriously.

    So I'm asking a valid question, what happens after all this scaremongering if it turns out all these horrible CT's didn't happen? Do we wait for the next virus outbreak, which will happen and has always happened in the past, and then say all the same things again?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Lads, big brother is watching.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,228 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Blindpew wrote: »
    Laugh all you like but the first case has just been confirmed here, I'm glad I ordered the N99 today.

    Has it? I just looked at RTEs website and as of 4:30 they have no cases confirmed in Ireland. Could you give further details?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭Blindpew


    The HSE will be making a statement soon, stay tuned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Blindpew wrote: »
    The HSE will be making a statement soon, stay tuned.

    For how long exactly?


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  • Posts: 6,025 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its on the news now, some guy from east coast has it,i think they said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭Blindpew


    Jake1 wrote: »
    Its on the news now, some guy from east coast has it,i think they said.

    Thats right Jake, a guy back from Mexico. They are treating him with Tamiflu and not Strepsols as Michael O'Leary suggested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Blindpew wrote: »
    Thats right Jake, a guy back from Mexico. They are treating him with Tamiflu and not Strepsols as Michael O'Leary suggested.

    So a guy who's just come back from the place where there's a big flu outbreak has flu? Does that summarise it?

    My brother came back from Mexico a couple of days ago and lives on the East coast...hmm. Of course I could check but it doesn't seem to be the way in this thread so I'll just assume the worst. Maybe he's in on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭blackgold>>


    god help us all. I think everyone should haul ass to the mountains...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Blindpew wrote: »
    Laugh all you like but the first case has just been confirmed here, I'm glad I ordered the N99 today.

    Right, but thats not really what you were saying, was it?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,228 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    bloody hell, is there really need for comments like that? He said the first case had been confirmed, and it had been. In fairness, what more do you want from him?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    bloody hell, is there really need for comments like that? He said the first case had been confirmed, and it had been. In fairness, what more do you want from him?
    Blindpew wrote: »
    A lot of people ignore whats going on until they are tossed up on the back of an eliteists tractor and trailor with froat coming from their mouths, squealing like pigs.

    ...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,228 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    ...

    Good point well made FD. All I'm saying is that he said there was a confirmed case in Ireland. And there was.

    And I wasn't just refering to your post


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Good point well made FD. All I'm saying is that he said there was a confirmed case in Ireland. And there was.

    And I wasn't just refering to your post

    Fair enough, but I was really referring to that post. The fact that he was somehow (?) right about a case in Ireland is besides the point. It's his nonsensical, sensationalist posting that baffles me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    Fair enough, but I was really referring to that post. The fact that he was somehow (?) right about a case in Ireland is besides the point. It's his nonsensical, sensationalist posting that baffles me.
    Em - this is the Conspiracy Theories forum. If you don't like conspiracy theories or if you can't handle the way the discussion goes then why are you here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    nodolan wrote: »
    Em - this is the Conspiracy Theories forum. If you don't like conspiracy theories or if you can't handle the way the discussion goes then why are you here?

    So what you are saying is that those who post in CT forums are incapable of reasonable debate, backed by evidence and in no way dependent on sensationalism/tabloidism and graphic propaganda?

    I guess I am asking too much...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Last warning folks, either be respectful and act like grownups or use the ignore function. Or .... you know .... keep going and get infracted/banned?


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    So what you are saying is that those who post in CT forums are incapable of reasonable debate, backed by evidence and in no way dependent on sensationalism/tabloidism and graphic propaganda?

    I guess I am asking too much...

    With all due respect (seriously) methinks you miss the whole point of what a conspiracy is:

    conspiracy - 5 dictionary results

    –noun, plural -cies.
    1. the act of conspiring.
    2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
    3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
    4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
    5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy

    theory - 11 dictionary results

    1. A coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
    2. A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
    3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
    4. The branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
    5. A particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
    6. Contemplation or speculation.
    7. Guess or conjecture.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

    By their very nature conspiracy theories cannot be definitively proven (yet). Once they're proven, i.e. they're exposed, there's no longer any theory - it is established as a fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    LAds, keep on topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭Blindpew


    It has always been my belief that polititians run for office initially with good intentions but as soon as they are elected they become open to corruption, as proved by our own government. Since I have been listening to Alex Jones this belief has grown stronger. Given the current state of the world it would not surprise me if there is a plot to exterminate millions of people, maybe billions, with this swine flu or some other such method in the near future.
    I don't trust Barrck Obama as he seems to good to be true. He says everything that people want to hear without really doing anything. They know the planet is over crowded and can't sustain the current population.These people wouldn't hesitate to impliment the fnal solution.
    In Ireland today there are calls to cut people off social welfare so as those lucky enough to have jobs won't have to pay so much tax, thus enabling them to go to Mexico on holiday twice a year. If you cut people off on the dole the next step is to shoot them or leave them to stave to death on the streets much like Irish people did to other Irish people during the famine. I would put nothing past people that hold power and money. If anyone thinks this is nonsensical I'm sorry for them but it's what I think.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    Here's the government's National Pandemic Influenza Expert Group Report on what to do in case of a pandemic in Ireland:

    http://www.hpsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/EmergencyPlanning/AvianPandemicInfluenza/Guidance/PandemicInfluenzaPreparednessforIreland/File,3257,en.pdf

    Have a good look at the side effects of Tamiflu while you're at it.
    Subsequently, the Expert Group reviewed recommendations with regard to stockpiling of zanamivir (Relenza) in addition to oseltamivir. This was in light of a case report of suspected resistance to oseltamivir (Tamiflu), detailed earlier in this chapter. The Expert Group advised that it would be prudent to stockpile a second antiviral agent that would allow for treatment of 20% of the population. The Minister for Health and Children accepted this advice.

    I've uploaded all the HSE and related agency documents regarding flu etc. here:

    http://rapidshare.com/files/227688015/N1H1.rar

    (You'll see in one document that the FFP3 respirator masks are recommended).

    Tamiflu from the box insert
    The most common side effects of Tamiflu are nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, stomach ache and headache.
    These side effects mostly occur only after the first dose of the medicine and will usually stop as treatment continues. The frequency of these effects is reduced if the medicinal product is taken with food.

    Less common side effects of Tamiflu

    Adults and adolescents (children aged 13 years and older)
    Other less common side effects, which may also be caused by influenza, are upper abdominal fullness, bleeding in the gastrointestinal tract, bronchitis, upper respiratory tract infections, dizziness, tiredness, sleeping difficulties, skin reactions, mild to severe liver function disorders, visual disturbances and heart rhythm abnormalities.
    Influenza can be associated with a variety of neurologic and behavioural symptoms which can include events such as hallucinations, delirium, and abnormal behaviour, in some cases resulting in fatal outcomes. These events may occur in the setting of encephalitis or encephalopathy but can occur without obvious severe disease.
    During Tamiflu treatment, events like convulsions and delirium (including symptoms such as altered level of consciousness, confusion, abnormal behaviour, delusions, hallucinations, agitation, anxiety, nightmares) have been reported, in a very few cases resulting in accidental injury, in some instances with fatal outcome. These events were reported primarily among children and adolescents and often had an abrupt onset and rapid resolution. The contribution of Tamiflu to those events is unknown.

    Such neuropsychiatric events have also been reported in patients with influenza who were not taking Tamiflu.

    Children (aged 1 to 12 years)
    Other less common side effects, which may also be caused by influenza, are ear inflammation, inflammation of the lungs, sinusitis, bronchitis, aggravation of pre-existing asthma, nose bleeding, ear disorders, inflammation of the skin, swelling of the lymph nodes, conjunctivitis, visual disturbances and heart rhythm abnormalities.

    From the Expert Group
    In late January 2008 antiviral drug susceptibility surveillance of seasonal influenza viruses in Europe (the EU-EEA-EFTA countries) revealed that some of the A (H1N1) viruses circulating this season (winter 2007-8) were resistant to the antiviral drug oseltamivir [Tamiflu] through mutation at position 274 in the viral neuraminidase gene.(16)

    Analysis of 2499 A/H1N1 viruses from 24 European (European Union, EEA/EFTA) countries isolated between November 2007 and early April (data archived on April 23rd) showed that 577 were resistant to oseltamivir, but retained sensitivity to zanamivir and amantadine. The proportion of A(H1N1) viruses that are oseltamivir resistant varied significantly across Europe. The highest proportion of resistant viruses to date have been in Norway where 168 (67%) of the 252 samples are resistant to oseltamivir, whereas no resistant viruses have been detected in five of the 24 countries. In Ireland, 9.1% are resistant. There is also evidence of similarly resistant viruses in North America and the Far East.

    In 2005, Mai Le et al reported isolation of drug resistant H5N1 virus from a Vietnamese girl.(17)

    This 15-year-old girl was treated with a prophylactic dose for three days, and then subsequently was given a therapeutic dose for seven days. She recovered. She had not had any direct contact with poultry, but had cared for her brother who had documented H5N1 infection. Although the virus was resistant to oseltamivir, it was sensitive to zanamivir. Since that report, there have been two additional cases reported where H5N1 virus, which is resistant to oseltamivir, was isolated.(18)

    In these patients, the viruses were isolated during or shortly after a course of oseltamivir at therapeutic doses.
    Both of these patients died. The authors stated that at least in some patients with A(H5N1) infection, treatment with recommended doses of oseltamivir incompletely suppresses viral replication, and that this can allow the infection to proceed, but also provides opportunities for drug resistance to develop.

    Ferguson et al have modelled the potential spread of drug resistant influenza infections during community-based use of antivirals.(19)
    Looking at different scenarios of usage of oseltamivir, ranging from treatment of 6% of symptomatic infections, to treatment of 40% of symptomatic infections and PEP following 5% of exposure events, they found that the currently isolated strains of influenza exhibiting resistance are unlikely to be transmitted in a frequency that would significantly interfere with the efficacy of even high levels of drug usage. However, this work pre-dated the emergence of resistance of A(H5N1) to oseltamivir in the 2007/2008 season.

    The potential human-to-human transmissibility of these variants is a major public health concern. If the A(H1N1) resistance to oseltamivir seen in the 2007/2008 season persists, it could affect our ability to use antiviral drugs during a pandemic, if this resistance were present also in the pandemic strain.

    M2 inhibitors (amantadines) in treatment

    In 2004, a Cochrane review of the effectiveness and safety of amantadine and rimantadine in healthy adults was carried out. All controlled trials registered up to September 2003 were included. Amantadine prevented 25% of influenza like illness (ILI) cases (95% confidence interval (CI) 13% to 36%), and 61% of influenza A cases (95% CI 35% to 76%). Amantadine reduced duration of fever by one day (95% CI 0.7 to 1.3). Rimantadine demonstrated comparable effectiveness, but there were fewer trials and the results for prevention were not statistically significant. Both amantadine and rimantadine induced significant gastrointestinal adverse effects. Adverse effects of the central nervous system and study withdrawals were significantly more common with amantadine than rimantadine. They concluded that amantadine and rimantadine have comparable effectiveness in the prevention and treatment of influenza A in healthy adults, although rimantadine causes fewer adverse effects than amantadine.

    Several placebo controlled prospective studies, during the 1968 H3N2 pandemic and 1977 H1N1 pandemic reappearance, showed that amantadine and rimantadine provided therapeutic benefit in uncomplicated illness in previously healthy adults with reductions in fever, symptom severity and time to resuming normal activities.(20; 21)

    No prospective trials to date have documented reductions in complications, antibiotic use or hospitalisations.(22)


    Oseltamivir
    side effects

    There have been reports mostly from Japan of neuropsychiatric events including delirium, convulsions, and encephalitis mainly in children and adolescents who were taking oseltamivir. Japan has the highest usage of oseltamivir worldwide.
    (25)

    In March 2007, Tokyo’s Ministry of Health and Welfare instructed the Japanese distributor of oseltamivir to include a warning not to give the drug to patients aged between 10 and 19, after reports that at least 18 Japanese children taking Tamiflu have died as a result of irrational behaviour. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Medicines Agency (EMEA) reviewed these reports. The relative contribution of the drug to these events is unknown. EMEA has required that doctors be warned that patients should be closely monitored for signs of abnormal behaviour and the summary of product characteristics (available at www.medicines.ie) now states “convulsions, depressed level of consciousness, abnormal behavior, hallucinations and delirium have been reported during Tamiflu administration, leading in rare cases to accidental injury. Patients, especially children and adolescents, should be closely monitored and their healthcare professional should be contacted immediately if the patient shows any signs of unusual behavior”.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Blindpew wrote: »
    derry wrote: »
    The monday Alex Jones internet radio show from www.infowars .com
    ( just click on the "listen to the show links" or go to Irish link
    www.info-wars.org and click on radio link and then the menu below of the ways to listen stram Real player Or Microsoft player etc)

    Alex Jones is the only only one telling the truth about this pandemic. No other news source is reliable.

    Or maybe HE started the pandemic just to give himself something to rant about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    nodolan wrote: »
    True US N95 (EU EN149:2001 FFP2) masks are 'recommended'.

    However.

    N95 masks are sufficient in preventing the spread of a virus through airborne particles if the wearer sneezes or coughs as the particles are kept within the mask (just like with lesser masks) - however N95 masks (95% protection) are not totally sufficient in preventing the wearer from acquiring an airborne infection - especially if the mask doesn't fit properly (i.e. if it doesn't form an airtight fit around your face). There's a reason why it has a tag of N95 as opposed to N99 (99%).

    Also, N95 masks are sufficient in preventing the acquisition of a bacteria based infection and some viral infections but not all viral infections as not all viruses have the same size (H5N1 viruses are so small they can float freely in the air for a while).

    The diameter of each enveloped virus ranges from 50-120 nanometres (nm) and filamentous virions are 20nm in diameter and 200-300nm long so, an N99 or N100 mask would be a lot more effective.

    virus.jpg
    http://h5n1experts.org/forum/showthread.php?p=925#post925



    http://h5n1experts.org/forum/

    http://blog.al.com/living-news/2009/01/flu_fighters_birminghams_south.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/viewing/3318_02_nsn.html

    http://www.fludirectory.com/articles/Do_not_Count_On_a_Bird_Flu_Vaccine.htm

    http://blog.rv.net/2009/04/swine-flu-h1n1-face-masks-and-duct-tape/comment-page-1/

    http://www.osha.gov/Publications/3328-05-2007-English.html#RespiratoryProtectionforPandemicInfluenza

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/swineflu/

    http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ppe/masksrespirators.html

    Poultry Farmers At Risk With N95 Mask

    Finally,

    Having been forced to do so much research on this subject I discovered that the Nanomask is NOT certified by either the USA or EU standards authorities. I don't know if that's changed recently but that was what I read here:

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/pdfs/Nanoguard062906.pdf

    The bottom line (for me at least):

    For the highest possible level of safety on a day to day basis (so to speak, because I'm not going to wear a full head gas mask and NBC suit - believe it or not) is not an N95 mask (though if it fits tightly it will provide adequate protection) but a properly fitting N99 mask (FFP3 in the EU) - which is better all round.

    You're welcome. :D

    Nodolan, I was responding to your point about P2 (N95) masks being "useless for flu". That is patently and profoundly wrong.

    We make choices about masks. N95 masks for the flu are good at stopping you getting the flu, but they have to be fitted properly. That's why hospitals constantly measure their staff for the,. I was measured up for mine last december.

    N95 and N99 masks probably don't stop people spreading the virus any more than a surgical mask, so that's what patients get. It's not practical to do a fitting on everyone who walks in the door of a hospital.

    You can argue that an N99 mask is better. That's true. But how far do you stretch that logic? Do we spend unlimited resources on buying funkier masks? Does inhaling 1% of viral particles in your proximity cause more illness than inhaling 5%? Pretty unlikely. I'll be wearing my N95 mask quite happily. I'd also happily wear an N99 mask, but I know the money would be better spent elsewhere.

    But let's talk about the reality. Everything you've posted is theoretical, as is everything I've posted above. The important point is that N99 masks have never been studied in real situations, whereas N95s have. N95s were shown to reduce acquisition of normal seasonal influenza by 60-80%.

    Biggest problem was people constantly taking them off. The more cumbersome they are, the worse that problem will be. That's where the N95 has an advantage over the N99.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    Okay - I should be extremely specific (even though I've already been) - N95 masks are uselss for this particular and specific virus as it is smaller than other flu viruses. Useless may be too strong a word to use - but - the difference between an N95 mask and an N99 isn't a simple mathematical addition rule but an exponential difference.

    N99 masks are up to 10 times more efficient than N95 masks and N99 masks are recommended by one of the HSE documents I uploaded.

    USA Standards Efficiency *
    NIOSH N95 94%
    NIOSH N99 99%
    NIOSH N100 99.97%

    European Standards Efficiency *
    EN149:201 FFP1 80%
    EN149:201 FFP2 94%
    EN149:201 FFP3 99%

    * efficiency rating when tested with .3 micron and above particle sizes

    FYI my N99 (FFP3) masks only cost €2 each and I can wear them for hours at a time. I bought 30 so that I can give some away.

    The US Department of Labor (OSHA) says, “NIOSH-approved disposable particulate respirators (e.g., N95, N99, or N100) are the minimum level of respiratory protection that should be worn.”

    If you're happy with an N95 (FFP2) mask that's your choice but you can get down off your high horse with me as it doesn't stick.

    3M Model 8293, P100 Particle Respirator Respirators are being recommended by some experts if you're on a long haul flight or expect to be in crowded situations.

    8293thumb.gif

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/youropinions.php?opinionid=16764

    As for N99 masks not being tested in real situations - that's a straw man. All the masks that get a NIOSH rating are tested under strict laboratory conditions:

    From the CDC:

    PPT Program is conducting research on relative performance of N95 and P100
    Filtering Facepiece Respirators (FFRs) in laboratory protection level studies.
    The draft protocol incorporates human subject testing planned using NPPTL
    generated aerosol (corn oil and sodium chloride) and ambient aerosol
    (PortaCount Plus) fit test facilities. Test results would be applicable to virus
    particles (whether aerosol or droplet transmission). Reference E.

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/review/public/129/pdfs/lttr022208.pdf

    Here's a 3M N100 mask:

    3m-8293.jpg

    Here's a 3M N95 mask:

    3m-9210.jpg

    I don't see anything cumbersome about the N100 mask :confused:

    BTW this is the mask type that is being stockpiled for the Gardaí and other emergency services in case we do have a major outbreak in Ireland (according to the woman that I was talking to who sells them):

    nofit1.jpg
    Now that's what I call a cumbersome mask :eek:

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/blog/nsb080408_nofittest.html

    http://cpheo.sph.umn.edu/cpheo/mcohs/courses/nofit/home.html

    edit: On Liveline today it would appear that there is more than one case of this flu in Ireland. From what I heard there and from other sources there are anywhere from 3-10 suspected cases around Ireland. There's a news conference at 5.45pm to break the news.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    So, to sum up your enormous post:

    N95 masks are the only ones to have ever been evaluated in real life situations (ie assessing how many people get sick when using them) and some countries decided that they'll take the financial hit to recommend the fancier masks.

    The CDC have only ever done theoretical testing.

    I would agree with the above, as it's what I'd originally said.

    The main factual problem is that this new virus isn't too small for the N95 mask. CDC are happy for people to wear N95 masks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    So, to sum up your enormous post:

    N95 masks are the only ones to have ever been evaluated in real life situations (ie assessing how many people get sick when using them) and some countries decided that they'll take the financial hit to recommend the fancier masks.

    The CDC have only ever done theoretical testing.

    I would agree with the above, as it's what I'd originally said.

    The main factual problem is that this new virus isn't too small for the N95 mask. CDC are happy for people to wear N95 masks.
    I don't get where you are getting the info that N95 masks are the only ones that have been tested in real life situations - can you substantiate that? I've provided loads of links but if you're going to make a statement like that you'll need to back it up.

    Plus it isn't a factual problem about the size of the H1N1 virus - I provided scientific evidence - if you're going to correct me then produce links - please. It's not good enough that you're a mod and a doctor - you must produce evidence.

    The use of the word 'fancier' is an attempt to denigrate my post which is unhelpful - I went to the trouble of providing pictures to prove a point.

    On re-reading your post I took note of the fact that you've been fitted with an N95/FFP2 mask which in fact makes a big difference. The rest of us don't have that facility so N99/FFP3 masks, which sometimes come in different sizes and usually come with adjustable straps and an adjustable nose-clip, will provide a much better fit than a basic non-fitted N95 that doesn't have an adjustable nose-clip etc.

    Please provide evidence for your claims - please. I hate arguing with someone who just throws stuff out there hoping it will stick. If you can prove me wrong I will admit that I was wrong, seriously.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    CDC are happy for people to wear N95 masks.

    Why should the CDC be trusted?

    They depend on new emerging diseases for their existence.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    nodolan wrote: »
    I don't get where you are getting the info that N95 masks are the only ones that have been tested in real life situations - can you substantiate that? I've provided loads of links but if you're going to make a statement like that you'll need to back it up.

    Plus it isn't a factual problem about the size of the H1N1 virus - I provided scientific evidence - if you're going to correct me then produce links - please. It's not good enough that you're a mod and a doctor - you must produce evidence.

    The use of the word 'fancier' is an attempt to denigrate my post which is unhelpful - I went to the trouble of providing pictures to prove a point.

    On re-reading your post I took note of the fact that you've been fitted with an N95/FFP2 mask which in fact makes a big difference. The rest of us don't have that facility so N99/FFP3 masks, which sometimes come in different sizes and usually come with adjustable straps and an adjustable nose-clip, will provide a much better fit than a basic non-fitted N95 that doesn't have an adjustable nose-clip etc.

    Please provide evidence for your claims - please. I hate arguing with someone who just throws stuff out there hoping it will stick. If you can prove me wrong I will admit that I was wrong, seriously.

    I cannot see any evidence to back up your assertion that the current strain of H1N1 is smaller than other versions of the influenza virus?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Why should the CDC be trusted?

    They depend on new emerging diseases for their existence.

    And as we all know that can never happen naturally.

    And CDC just ignore the thousands of diseases that are already around.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    nodolan wrote: »
    I don't get where you are getting the info that N95 masks are the only ones that have been tested in real life situations - can you substantiate that?

    Plus it isn't a factual problem about the size of the H1N1 virus -

    On re-reading your post I took note of the fact that you've been fitted with an N95/FFP2 mask which in fact makes a big difference.

    Please provide evidence for your claims - please. .

    Sure.

    So, the only proper scientific paper testing masks and their usefullness in a REAL influenza outbreak is:

    MacIntyre CR, Epid MA, Cauchemez S, Dwyer DE, Seale H, Cheung P, et al. Face mask use and control of respiratory virus transmission in households. Emerging Infectious Diseases 2009.

    There's very litle other actual evidence out there.

    There's also no good scientific evidence that this virus is too small for the N95 mask.

    You'll see that a big finding in this study is that compliance is a big issue in the success of masks. That's one of the reasons N95 masks are probably better. They are easier to breath through. But there's no good evidence at all for N99 masks.

    That's why the WHO recommends the N95:

    http://www.who.int/csr/resources/publications/20090429_infection_control_en.pdf

    No one is trying to kill you!!! I, and the guys in the WHO and CDC, work silly hours when diseases spread! It's saturday night on a bank holiday weekend. I was in work at 8am today because of this thing. I'll be back in tomorrow morning,

    Also, there are no cases of human swine flu in Ireland yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Sure.

    So, the only proper scientific paper testing masks and their usefullness in a REAL influenza outbreak is:

    MacIntyre CR, Epid MA, Cauchemez S, Dwyer DE, Seale H, Cheung P, et al. Face mask use and control of respiratory virus transmission in households. Emerging Infectious Diseases 2009.

    There's very litle other actual evidence out there.

    There's also no good scientific evidence that this virus is too small for the N95 mask.

    You'll see that a big finding in this study is that compliance is a big issue in the success of masks. That's one of the reasons N95 masks are probably better. They are easier to breath through. But there's no good evidence at all for N99 masks.

    That's why the WHO recommends the N95:

    http://www.who.int/csr/resources/publications/20090429_infection_control_en.pdf

    No one is trying to kill you!!! I, and the guys in the WHO and CDC, work silly hours when diseases spread! It's saturday night on a bank holiday weekend. I was in work at 8am today because of this thing. I'll be back in tomorrow morning,

    Also, there are no cases of human swine flu in Ireland yet.
    Okay, I appreciate the reference given but did you read it? Because I did:

    http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/15/2/233.htm
    In our study, fit testing for P2 masks was not conducted because this is unlikely to be feasible in the general community during a pandemic. As such, we felt it was more appropriate to determine the efficacy of non–fit-tested masks. We found no difference in adherence between P2 and surgical masks, an important finding, as there is a common belief among healthcare workers that P2 masks are less comfortable. The size of the study did not permit conclusive comparison of the relative efficacy of P2 masks and surgical masks. Given the 5- to 10-fold cost difference between the 2 mask types, quantifying any difference in efficacy between surgical masks and particulate respirators remains a priority that needs to be addressed by a larger trial.
    So basically what they said is that a non-fitted P2 (N95) has the same efficacy as a surgical mask when it comes down to adherence (actually wearing it).

    They then go on to say:
    Conversely, the low rate of confirmed influenza A or B infection (18.4%) in the study could mean that our findings are not directly applicable to a scenario in which influenza predominates. If influenza is more likely than the other viruses in our study to be transmitted by the respiratory route, the prevalence of mixed infections would tend to bias our results toward the null. However, it is possible that a pandemic strain may have different transmission characteristics than seasonal strains as demonstrated by attack rates in different age groups in pandemics compared with seasonal outbreaks and by the detection of influenza virus in different clinical samples in human influenza virus A (H5N1) cases.

    Okay I'm parking this here because we're never going to agree.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    nodolan wrote: »
    Okay, I appreciate the reference given but did you read it? Because I did:

    http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/15/2/233.htm

    So basically what they said is that a non-fitted P2 (N95) has the same efficacy as a surgical mask when it comes down to adherence (actually wearing it).

    They then go on to say:


    Okay I'm parking this here because we're never going to agree.

    That's EXACTLY the point.

    They're saying that non fitted masks in the community aren't particularly useful. So, that's why the public get surgical masks, and healthcare professionals get P2 masks.

    The second point is merely stating that the findings of this study looked at various respiratory viruses in the community, and may not be applicable to all viruses. No one claimed otherwise.

    But the point I was making is that it's the only trial of masks in a real life situation. It's not a perfect study. But it;s the best evidence we have. There has been nothing like it for N99 masks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    I was really confused the last couple of days by the news reports on RTE and by what the HSE was saying - 'there are no detected or probable cases of AH1N1' - while several people were sick after coming back from Mexico. :confused:

    And now almost a week after the first suspected case in the East of the country they've finally admitted the guy is positive for AH1N1:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0502/swineflu.html

    On Livelive there were several people reporting that there were up to 6-12 people in Ireland that may have this flu. One woman and her husband called in from quarantine (in her home in Limerick) but she hasn't been mentioned once on the news (so it would seem that the Irish media are in collusion with the HSE to keep quiet).

    I suppose this is what we get for having no proper lab in this country so we have to send samples to the UK and wait for them to process them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    nodolan wrote: »
    I was really confused the last couple of days by the news reports on RTE and by what the HSE was saying - 'there are no detected or probable cases of AH1N1' - while several people were sick after coming back from Mexico. :confused:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0427/swineflu.html - Reports from almost a week ago that we might have cases of it, turned up negative the next day.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0430/swineflu.html - Reports from a couple of days ago that we probably had a case of it.

    When did they say 'there are no detected or probable cases of AH1N1', cause if it was between Tuesday and Thurdsay it very well may have been true.
    nodolan wrote: »
    One woman and her husband called in from quarantine (in her home in Limerick) but she hasn't been mentioned once on the news (so it would seem that the Irish media are in collusion with the HSE to keep quiet).

    How come you jump straight to the cover up theory but don't consider that the woman could be lying? :confused:

    What advantage is there for a coverup if they have these people in quarantine? Surely they'd only try cover it up if they wanted these people wandering around in public spreading the virus.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    I doubt she was lying. She was likely to have been a case that was waiting for results to come back. In those situations, if there is genuine concern that the result will be positive (most of the people having tests are pretty unlikely to be positive, certainly where I work) then you ask them to stay indoors until the result is back.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan


    Ciaran500 wrote:
    When did they say 'there are no detected or probable cases of AH1N1', cause if it was between Tuesday and Thurdsay it very well may have been true.
    It was at the press conference on Thursday evening. While they were waiting for test results to come back on at least two people - both of whom became ill within 24 hours of coming back from Mexico.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭espinolman


    The swine flu is in Ireland .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    espinolman wrote: »
    The swine flu is in Ireland .

    Link?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    6th wrote: »
    Link?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0503/swineflu.html

    We're doomed, DOOOOMMMed!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭espinolman


    6th wrote: »
    Link?
    Is what i mean is someone has it in Ireland i heard , but i have no links .


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8032582.stm

    Look at that.
    No martial law.
    No one being herd into camps.
    No depopulation.
    No ethnic cleansing.
    No vast profits for drug companies.

    No conspiracy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Sofa_King Good


    Here is how much you can trust the CDC.
    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention withheld evidence that contaminated tap water caused lead poisoning in kids
    http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2009/04/10/cdc_lead_report/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob



    You mean how it was called by actual scientists and the media?

    Wow they must save all the cover up money for the big stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭nodolan




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