Landlord selling house?

crrazytock · 14-03-2012 3:28pm #1

Hi, okay I just want some information here and to know whether I'm just over-reacting or what but anyway here goes..

Myself and my boyfriend moved into a house 6th of October, we have been up to date with rent, house has been kept well, no noise/parties or any other disturbances. A couple of weeks ago, got a phone call from letting agent saying the landlord wanted to inspect the property, that was fair enough until he told us that they would be over in 3 hours!! We were NOT happy but tidied and scrubbed the house like crazy, when they came over, they went straight out the back, talked a bit and then left about 5 mins later. I didn't even get to see the landlord as I was upstairs getting set for work. That was grand, then the next day the letting agent rang again telling us they would be over to look at the house again as they were thinking of making some improvements and asking us NOT to be there this time.. I didn't like that at all, but both myself and my boyfriend weren't going to be in the house anyway that day and as the fella knows the agent personally we let it slide, the house was clean and everything and we figured it'd be something out the back seeing as that's where they were the last day. The only communication we got from the agent that day was letting us know they had left the house in a text. There was no explanation and we couldn't get a hold of him to get one.

Now, today about a half hour ago we get another text from the agent saying the house is up for sale and the first viewing is a half 3 today. Having a heart attack and trying to clean the house at the moment but wanted to find out some information. What on earth is the story here? Surely they can't sell the house out from under us as we have a fixed lease of one year until 6th October this year. Do we have any grounds to break the lease before it's sold? What are our rights with viewings etc.? And if it's bought before our lease is up... what the hell happens next?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm in panic mode at the moment. Any advice/information would be MORE than welcome. Cheers.

djimi · 14-03-2012 3:39pm

1. The landlord must give you at least 24 hours notice if they want to inspect the house, and it must be at a time that suits you, not them.

2. They have no right to demand that you not be there while they are. Its your home for the time you are living there and they must respect that.

3. While you are under a fixed term lease you cannot be asked to leave (unless you get evicted for breaking the lease or something). The landlord is free to sell the house, but he must do so with you as sitting tenants, and you have the full legal right to stay there until your contract is up. The new owners become your landlords and must abide by the lease that is in place.

4. If the landlord wants to show the house then it is the same as point 1; with a minimum of 24 hours notice and at your convenience, not at theres. I would also suggest that seeing as how you are entitled to rent free from disturbance from the landlord that you tell him that you will be looking for compensation for the annoyance of having him show the house to potential buyers. Personally Id be looking for at least €50 a month knocked off the price of the rent.

J-blk · 14-03-2012 3:39pm

A fixed term is exactly that... fixed. If you are meeting your obligations as a tenant (paying rent on time, keeping the place in good shape, etc), then the current landlord can't simply get you out before the fixed term ends. Even if the house was sold by next month, the buyer(s) would become your new landlord(s) until the end of the lease.

As for the inspections, I can't believe you have been so accommodating (ok the first time maybe, but I'd lose the plot if they tried the subsequent stunts). AFAIK, there is nothing "official" regarding notice periods but it should be a "reasonable" notice period. Most people would consider 24 hours (minimum) reasonable enough.

Beyond that, that applies to inspections really - you don't have to accommodate viewings at all and they should be arranging with you what suits, not the other way around. Remember, until the end of the lease, this is your home and you are entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of it.

useruser · 14-03-2012 3:40pm

Check the terms of your lease carefully but generally speaking the landlord cannot break your lease just because they are selling. It is very likely that they must sell with you as a sitting tenant. This gives you a strong bargaining position (you could ask that they pay you to break the lease early for example).

Your landlord must also give reasonable notice when they want to visit and they cannot force viewings upon you either (you have an entitlement to the quiet enjoyment of your home). I suggest you have a word with Threshold (www.threshold.ie) to help clarify your rights in this regard.

djimi · 14-03-2012 3:43pm

useruser wrote: »

Check the terms of your lease carefully but generally speaking the landlord cannot break your lease just because they are selling. It is very likely that they must sell with you as a sitting tenant. This gives you a strong bargaining position (you could ask that they pay you to break the lease early for example).

Your landlord must also give reasonable notice when they want to visit and they cannot force viewings upon you either (you have an entitlement to the quiet enjoyment of your home). I suggest you have a word with Threshold (www.threshold.ie) to help clarify your rights in this regard.

Theres no generally speaking; a lease can say whatever it wants but the law will always superceed it, and legally a landlord cannot ask you to leave a fixed term lease early because they want to sell the house.

Zamboni · 14-03-2012 3:45pm

crrazytock wrote: »

Now, today about a half hour ago we get another text from the agent saying the house is up for sale and the first viewing is a half 3 today.

Reply back with - No.
You gave them an inch and now they are taking a mile. Stand up for your self. Now.

djimi · 14-03-2012 3:46pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Reply back with - No.
You gave them an inch and now they are taking a mile. Stand up for your self. Now.

This, absolutley. Tell them you wont be there at 3 today. If they let themselves in without your consent then they are trespassing.

useruser · 14-03-2012 3:49pm

djimi wrote: »

Theres no generally speaking; a lease can say whatever it wants but the law will always superceed it, and legally a landlord cannot ask you to leave a fixed term lease early because they want to sell the house.

I'm not sure that is true, do you know the specific regulation that covers this and the wording of it? The law for Part 4 tenancy is quite clear in this regard but I'm not sure that fixed term leases are covered in the way you describe. (I am genuinely unsure on this point - i.e. can a fixed term lease have a clause that allows sale - so would appreciate it if anyone can point to the specific regulation.)

In any case, it is extremely unlikely that the lease contains such a clause and is most likely the usual boilerplate version that everyone uses.

djimi · 14-03-2012 3:55pm

useruser wrote: »

I'm not sure that is true, do you know the specific regulation that covers this and the wording of it? The law for Part 4 tenancy is quite clear in this regard but I'm not sure that fixed term leases are covered in the way you describe. (I am genuinely unsure on this point - i.e. can a fixed term lease have a clause that allows sale - so would appreciate it if anyone can point to the specific regulation.)

In any case, it is extremely unlikely that the lease contains such a clause and is most likely the usual boilerplate version that everyone uses.

A fixed term lease give the tenant far more protection than a part 4. The clauses in a part 4 which allow the landlord to remove the tenant under certain circumstances do not apply to a fixed term, and the only way that the landlord can remove the tenant is if they evict them for breaking the terms of the lease.

I cant find something to back this up, but trust me this is the way it is! The lease can be worded any way it likes to the contrary, but it doesnt matter a jot as the law supersedes it.

crrazytock · 14-03-2012 4:00pm

Thanks a million for all the fast replies, we just had no clue where we stood rights wise. I'll be asking the agent more than a few questions today let me tell you that! This is our first time renting and now we just feel as though we're being taken advantage of. I will be going to the rights commissioner and looking at threshold.ie (thanks for the site) right after the viewing to get more information and I'll definitely look into the rent reduction (love that suggestion!) Just feel very thrown into the deep end here but I'm gonna make sure that my rights are respected from here on out. I won't be afraid to stand up to the agent/landlord and I'll be asking the prospective buyers whether they know they're gonna have tenants 'til the 6th of Oct

useruser · 14-03-2012 4:01pm

djimi wrote: »

A fixed term lease give the tenant far more protection than a part 4. The clauses in a part 4 which allow the landlord to remove the tenant under certain circumstances do not apply to a fixed term, and the only way that the landlord can remove the tenant is if they evict them for breaking the terms of the lease.

I honestly don't believe this is %100 correct. A fixed term lease can definitely confer additional security of tenure but I believe it could also be written in such a way as to only provide the same rights as part 4 - hence my suggestion to check the wording. If you can find the legislation that contradicts my understanding please do post it, I will also try to check it. You are right to say that a lease definitely cannot remove any of the rights of a part 4 tenancy.

useruser · 14-03-2012 4:09pm

crrazytock wrote: »

Thanks a million for all the fast replies, we just had no clue where we stood rights wise.

You are in a strong bargaining position so use that to your advantage - you should be able to reduce your rent for the inconvenience (and personally I would want a lot more than 50 Euro for the nuisance factor of facilitating viewings). If you consider that if the house sells you are likely to have to leave by October anyway then perhaps your landlord would be interested to buy you out also? Good luck.

the_syco · 14-03-2012 6:06pm

Let your landlord know that viewings only happen in the evening when you're there. This is to ensure the landlord doesn't allow people to wander about the house, as if anything goes missing, you may not notice until you need it.

Lock away any valuables, to ensure they don't go missing, esp the smaller items like rings or loose cash. Remember: the landlord will be inviting complete strangers into your house, and if something goes missing, the landlord may not "know" their contact details when you mention the theft.

If he enters when you're not there, contact the Gardai about his trespassing, and restrict the viewings down to one day (weekend viewings).

odds_on · 14-03-2012 6:13pm

useruser wrote: »

I'm not sure that is true, do you know the specific regulation that covers this and the wording of it? The law for Part 4 tenancy is quite clear in this regard but I'm not sure that fixed term leases are covered in the way you describe. (I am genuinely unsure on this point - i.e. can a fixed term lease have a clause that allows sale - so would appreciate it if anyone can point to the specific regulation.)

In any case, it is extremely unlikely that the lease contains such a clause and is most likely the usual boilerplate version that everyone uses.

Actually, a fixed term lease CAN have a clause if worded correctly that lets the landlord remove a tenant using the grounds as set out in the RTA 2004 Section 34 (the same as the grounds a landlord can use with a Part 4 tenancy. However, this can only come into effect once the tenant has been in occupancy for six months and Part 4 rights enter the equation.

Dyr · 14-03-2012 6:48pm

Which company is this agent

odds_on · 14-03-2012 8:50pm

Bambi wrote: »

Which company is this agent

If you are asking me, I am not an letting agent. I am not an estate agent. I am not a management agent. Nor am I legally trained.

However, I do have a keen interest in both landlord and tenants' rights, responsibilities and obligations and I am completely impartial.

However, I may get into the business in some manner, in the future.

Any offers?

djimi · 14-03-2012 11:38pm

odds_on wrote: »

Actually, a fixed term lease CAN have a clause if worded correctly that lets the landlord remove a tenant using the grounds as set out in the RTA 2004 Section 34 (the same as the grounds a landlord can use with a Part 4 tenancy. However, this can only come into effect once the tenant has been in occupancy for six months and Part 4 rights enter the equation.

Ive always been told, am Im sure that Ive read several times, that the clauses of a part 4 tenancy that allow a landlord to remove a tenant (selling the house, needs it for himself etc) do not apply under any circumstances under a fixed term lease. I couldnt find anything to back this up when I looked earlier; so youre saying that the landlord can put these clauses into the contract and they are legally binding? And that in that regard a fixed term lease, if worded properly by the landlord, means nothing really other than setting down the rent amount and lease period, and offers no more protection than a part 4 tenancy after the first 6 months?

Marcusm · 14-03-2012 11:46pm

djimi wrote: »

1. The landlord must give you at least 24 hours notice if they want to inspect the house, and it must be at a time that suits you, not them.

2. They have no right to demand that you not be there while they are. Its your home for the time you are living there and they must respect that.

3. While you are under a fixed term lease you cannot be asked to leave (unless you get evicted for breaking the lease or something). The landlord is free to sell the house, but he must do so with you as sitting tenants, and you have the full legal right to stay there until your contract is up. The new owners become your landlords and must abide by the lease that is in place.

4. If the landlord wants to show the house then it is the same as point 1; with a minimum of 24 hours notice and at your convenience, not at theres. I would also suggest that seeing as how you are entitled to rent free from disturbance from the landlord that you tell him that you will be looking for compensation for the annoyance of having him show the house to potential buyers. Personally Id be looking for at least €50 a month knocked off the price of the rent.

I would agree with your comments with the exception of item 4. Unless there is an express provision in the lease, the landlord is not entitled to require you to permit viewings nor to require you to facilitate, for example, photographing of the house. The nature of a lease is that the landlord surrenders the house to you for the term of the lease ("quiet enjoyment") subject only to a general entitlement to periodic inspection to ensure compliance with any lessee covenants in the lease.

As you have been there only a short period, I would be cautious in agreeing to too many viewing as they increase your risk.

I write this as a landlord and as a tenant!

djimi · 14-03-2012 11:59pm

Marcusm wrote: »

I would agree with your comments with the exception of item 4. Unless there is an express provision in the lease, the landlord is not entitled to require you to permit viewings nor to require you to facilitate, for example, photographing of the house. The nature of a lease is that the landlord surrenders the house to you for the term of the lease ("quiet enjoyment") subject only to a general entitlement to periodic inspection to ensure compliance with any lessee covenants in the lease.

As you have been there only a short period, I would be cautious in agreeing to too many viewing as they increase your risk.

I write this as a landlord and as a tenant!

I wasnt actually sure about that part; I know the landlord is allowed to view the house at your convenience with at least 24 hours notice, so I figured it might fall under that. How often they can do it in a short amount of time is another thing.

Its why I recommended coming to an agreement about a reduced rent in return for accomodating viewings. Ive heard of a few people in a similar situation coming to that arrangement with the landlord. End of the day if they want rid of the house then its in their interest to for the tenant to cooperate, so the tenant may as well take advantage!

odds_on · 15-03-2012 12:29am

Marcusm wrote: »

I would agree with your comments with the exception of item 4. Unless there is an express provision in the lease, the landlord is not entitled to require you to permit viewings nor to require you to facilitate, for example, photographing of the house. The nature of a lease is that the landlord surrenders the house to you for the term of the lease ("quiet enjoyment") subject only to a general entitlement to periodic inspection to ensure compliance with any lessee covenants in the lease.

As you have been there only a short period, I would be cautious in agreeing to too many viewing as they increase your risk.

I write this as a landlord and as a tenant!

That is the only entitlement the landlord has - periodic inspection. A viewing with a potential tenant/buyer is not an inspection. An inspection does not involve people other than the landlord or his appointed agent, anyone else involved would constitute a breach of the landlord's obligations and liable for a claim against him for loss of quiet enjoyment by the tenant.

odds_on · 15-03-2012 12:48am

djimi wrote: »

Ive always been told, am Im sure that Ive read several times, that the clauses of a part 4 tenancy that allow a landlord to remove a tenant (selling the house, needs it for himself etc) do not apply under any circumstances under a fixed term lease. I couldnt find anything to back this up when I looked earlier; so youre saying that the landlord can put these clauses into the contract and they are legally binding? And that in that regard a fixed term lease, if worded properly by the landlord, means nothing really other than setting down the rent amount and lease period, and offers no more protection than a part 4 tenancy after the first 6 months?

I am saying that there is the possibility of a clause in a fixed term lease which would allow a landlord to remove a tenant, after the first six months and before the expiry of the fixed term.

The tenant always has the option of assigning the lease which the landlord does not have. Thus, this clause helps the landlord a little but can only be invoked using the grounds as set out in the RTA 2004 section 34. It is not a free get out clause by any means but quite restrictive. And it can only be used once the Part 4 rights have started, i.e. making the clause equal to Part 4 laws.

The lease still remains a fixed term contract with all its implications, terms and conditions but allows a landlord a certain leeway to regain his property for his own use or for selling his property (among the few grounds available to him).

IMHO it would be rarely used especially by full time landlords, but it may be beneficial to "forced" landlords who have had to rent out their house and home to regain their property for their own use.

ProudDUB · 15-03-2012 1:41am

1. Tell the EA that you have gotten legal advice and consulted, Threshold and the PRTB. You are now are fully aware of your legal rights in this matter, and that you intend to use them to suit the needs of you and your family best. Best to set them straight on all this right now. From what you have posted so far, it looks like the landlord and estate agent have every intention of walking all over you due to your relative inexperience as a tenant. Best to nip that in the bud right now.

2. Instruct him to inform the landlord that you are entitled to the "quiet enjoyment of your home" that others have mentioned, and that you have no intention of living in a show house for the remainder of your lease. You are under no obligation to let third parties into your home to view it. You have let him in once to do his so called bogus inspection, and that is it. Inform him that if he, his estate agents or future buyers set foot in your home without your consent, they are trespassing and you will call the Guards & report him to the PRTB, as that consent will not be forthcoming.

3. Inform him that you are staying until the end of your lease, and that it is highly likely that you will avail of your Part 4 tenancy rights that you will acquire once you are in residence 6 months. That means that you can stay on for 4 more years if you so choose. Not only does that mean that any future buyer can not take possession of the house for nearly 5 years, it will also make it damm hard for the house to be sold in the first place seeing as you will not be allowing viewings of it.

4. Sit back and wait for the landlord to offer to you a deal for you to allow viewings, and to agree to move out if/when the house sells or the lease is up. Take the offer that seems fair and reasonable to you & that causes you the least financial, emotional and logistical headaches. I agree with the poster who said that a mere 50 quid off your rent is not enough. But what ever you decide, you are in the position of power here, not him. Use that to your advantage to do what is best for you. No one else will.

5. Communicate with the EA via letter, or email if you don't feel comfortable doing this on the phone. That way you have proof of all things said and agreed to, and no one can try to verbally intimidate you if they do not like what they are hearing, which they probably won't. Odds are the estate agent knows full well what your rights are in this matter. It is his business to know. He's probably just chancing his arm and relying on your ignorance by doing the bidding of his client in the hopes of getting a nice fat fee when he sells the house.

Best of luck to you.

Marcusm · 15-03-2012 9:05am

ProudDUB wrote: »

1. Tell the EA that you have gotten legal advice and consulted, Threshold and the PRTB. You are now are fully aware of your legal rights in this matter, and that you intend to use them to suit the needs of you and your family best. Best to set them straight on all this right now. From what you have posted so far, it looks like the landlord and estate agent have every intention of walking all over you due to your relative inexperience as a tenant. Best to nip that in the bud right now.

2. Instruct him to inform the landlord that you are entitled to the "quiet enjoyment of your home" that others have mentioned, and that you have no intention of living in a show house for the remainder of your lease. You are under no obligation to let third parties into your home to view it. You have let him in once to do his so called bogus inspection, and that is it. Inform him that if he, his estate agents or future buyers set foot in your home without your consent, they are trespassing and you will call the Guards & report him to the PRTB, as that consent will not be forthcoming.

3. Inform him that you are staying until the end of your lease, and that it is highly likely that you will avail of your Part 4 tenancy rights that you will acquire once you are in residence 6 months. That means that you can stay on for 4 more years if you so choose. Not only does that mean that any future buyer can not take possession of the house for nearly 5 years, it will also make it damm hard for the house to be sold in the first place seeing as you will not be allowing viewings of it.

4. Sit back and wait for the landlord to offer to you a deal for you to allow viewings, and to agree to move out if/when the house sells or the lease is up. Take the offer that seems fair and reasonable to you & that causes you the least financial, emotional and logistical headaches. I agree with the poster who said that a mere 50 quid off your rent is not enough. But what ever you decide, you are in the position of power here, not him. Use that to your advantage to do what is best for you. No one else will.

5. Communicate with the EA via letter, or email if you don't feel comfortable doing this on the phone. That way you have proof of all things said and agreed to, and no one can try to verbally intimidate you if they do not like what they are hearing, which they probably won't. Odds are the estate agent knows full well what your rights are in this matter. It is his business to know. He's probably just chancing his arm and relying on your ignorance by doing the bidding of his client in the hopes of getting a nice fat fee when he sells the house.

Best of luck to you.

ProudDub

Not sure that I'd suggest the OP be as assertive as all that. Part 4 is fine to assume but if the house is sold and the purchaser wants to occupy the house, the tenancy will come to an end, that's the aw. Likewise after the expiry of the fixed term lease, the landlord can end te Part 4 tenancy for the purpose of selling the house. My suggestion would either be to dig the heels in but exect to move at expiry or negotiates more substantial incentive to facilitate the sale.

Likewise, I woud expect most estate agents to have little knowledge of tenants' rights or of landlrds' obligations.

my friend · 15-03-2012 9:16am

the_syco wrote: »

Let your landlord know that viewings only happen in the evening when you're there. This is to ensure the landlord doesn't allow people to wander about the house, as if anything goes missing, you may not notice until you need it.

Lock away any valuables, to ensure they don't go missing, esp the smaller items like rings or loose cash. Remember: the landlord will be inviting complete strangers into your house, and if something goes missing, the landlord may not "know" their contact details when you mention the theft.

If he enters when you're not there, contact the Gardai about his trespassing, and restrict the viewings down to one day (weekend viewings).

The Landlord is probably a Garda ...

paul71 · 22-03-2012 5:46am

my friend wrote: »

The Landlord is probably a Garda ...

Maybe, but they are subject to the law as much as anyone else and indeed would be out of a job in the event of a criminal conviction.

Doom · 28-11-2012 8:19pm

Bambi wrote: »

Which company is this agent

Its the landlord and an estate agent, why?

Doom · 28-11-2012 8:22pm

Marcusm wrote: »

I would agree with your comments with the exception of item 4. Unless there is an express provision in the lease, the landlord is not entitled to require you to permit viewings nor to require you to facilitate, for example, photographing of the house. The nature of a lease is that the landlord surrenders the house to you for the term of the lease ("quiet enjoyment") subject only to a general entitlement to periodic inspection to ensure compliance with any lessee covenants in the lease.

As you have been there only a short period, I would be cautious in agreeing to too many viewing as they increase your risk.

I write this as a landlord and as a tenant!

..wrong thread

Chris_5339762 · 28-11-2012 10:21pm

Wonder what happened with this in the end...

Landlord selling house?

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