Why do you hate Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 05-02-2016 11:22pm

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The gh and ch sounds in Ulster Irish aren't the same to those of Connaught and Munster..

Are they any less throat de-skinning?

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:24pm

I'd like to ask the anti-Irish posters something. Moving away from the Irish is dead/Irish isn't dead argument for a moment: Do you want Irish to die out? Because it sounds like you would prefer if that happened, and I can't understand that at all.

Iwasfrozen · 05-02-2016 11:26pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I'd like to ask the anti-Irish posters something. Moving away from the Irish is dead/Irish isn't dead argument for a moment: Do you want Irish to die out? Because it sounds like you would prefer if that happened, and I can't understand that at all.

I don't want the language mandatory in school. Once that happens and state spending is kept to an appropriate minimum I don't care if it lives or dies.

Hunchback · 05-02-2016 11:29pm

As in Peigin Litir Mor

jno547 · 05-02-2016 11:30pm

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Surely then it should be made optional? I mean if there's such an attractive, active scene then it won't have any problems, no?

Why oh why should it be made optional??? Why make something which is a part of what we are, Irish, optional, you would rather see part of our culture, our heritage, our music as an optional programme for future students?
There is an old Irish proverb which translated says "a country without a language is a country without an identity " Is that what we want or should we keep one semblance of pride and maintain one of our few remaining attributes that makes us unique, our language.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:30pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I'd like to ask the anti-Irish posters something. Moving away from the Irish is dead/Irish isn't dead argument for a moment: Do you want Irish to die out? Because it sounds like you would prefer if that happened, and I can't understand that at all.

Of course not! However, this is what the current system is doing. It's plain as day. It's been in place for nearly a century and all it's done is strangle the language. The only way forward is to separate the language from the state and special interest groups. That way, entrepreneurs, driven by pride and a love of the language will be able to inspire people to actually learn it and create works of art through it. By all means set up a pot of money every year for films, books, websites and the like to be created through grants as long as an eye is kept on it. Forcing kids to learn it and punishing them when the vast majority of them fail is what is killing it. Very soon the damage will be permanent. That's fine, I can live with that. It'd be a shame but people seem to apathetic to give it serious thought.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:31pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't want the language mandatory in school. Once that happens and state spending is kept to an appropriate minimum I don't care if it lives or dies.

This, apart from the last line. It' like to see it survive - but I don;t think it's in any danger of dying out. It's status in education won't change that: there are enough people learning it and enthusiastic about it for it to survive.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:31pm

jno547 wrote: »

Why oh why should it be made optional??? Why make something which is a part of what we are, Irish, optional, you would rather see part of our culture, our heritage, our music as an optional programme for future students?
There is an old Irish proverb which translated says "a country without a language is a country without an identity " Is that what we want or should we keep one semblance of pride and maintain one of our few remaining attributes that makes us unique, our language.

History is optional and I would argue that one's history constitutes a much greater aspect of one's identity that a dead language.

maudgonner · 05-02-2016 11:31pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I spent hundreds of hours in school having it shoved down my throat which I would think is experience enough.

Fair enough. You had a bad experience and bear a clear resentment to the language. That's your prerogative.

But put me out of my misery: why the username? Seriously? (Apologies if this has been covered, don't really have enough fúcks to give to search back through this thread on a Friday night).

Shurimgreat · 05-02-2016 11:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think it's justified when I'm talking about individuals so catastrophically inept that they'd like starve in any other country. But he's related to DeValera so he needs to get special privileges.

Ludicrous statement after ludicrous statement. You are funny if nothing else.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:34pm

jno547 wrote: »

Why oh why should it be made optional??? Why make something which is a part of what we are, Irish, optional, you would rather see part of our culture, our heritage, our music as an optional programme for future students?
There is an old Irish proverb which translated says "a country without a language is a country without an identity " Is that what we want or should we keep one semblance of pride and maintain one of our few remaining attributes that makes us unique, our language.

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Also, the "country without a langauge" line has been shown to be offensive bull****. Lots of countries have very rich cultueres and ientities without their own langauge.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:35pm

maudgonner wrote: »

Fair enough. You had a bad experience and bear a clear resentment to the language. That's your prerogative.

But put me out of my misery: why the username? Seriously? (Apologies if this has been covered, don't really have enough fúcks to give to search back through this thread on a Friday night).

I don't resent the language. I resent the special interest groups cowering behind it.

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:37pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course not! However, this is what the current system is doing. It's plain as day. It's been in place for nearly a century and all it's done is strangle the language. The only way forward is to separate the language from the state and special interest groups. That way, entrepreneurs, driven by pride and a love of the language will be able to inspire people to actually learn it and create works of art through it. By all means set up a pot of money every year for films, books, websites and the like to be created through grants as long as an eye is kept on it. Forcing kids to learn it and punishing them when the vast majority of them fail is what is killing it. Very soon the damage will be permanent. That's fine, I can live with that. It'd be a shame but people seem to apathetic to give it serious thought.

While this is the most reasonable post you've made on this thread, you're completely contradicting what you said just a few pages back when you were ranting about TnaG, RnaG and Foras.

Shurimgreat · 05-02-2016 11:37pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Also, the "country without a langauge" line has been shown to be offensive bull****. Lots of countries have very rich cultueres and ientities without their own langauge.

Try telling that to the French! Or English! Their languages are crucial to national identity and projecting that identity around the world.

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:38pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

History is optional and I would argue that one's history constitutes a much greater aspect of one's identity that a dead language.

You can call it a dead language as often as you want, it doesn't make it true.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:39pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

While this is the most reasonable post you've made on this thread, you're completely contradicting what you said just a few pages back when you were ranting about TnaG, RnaG and Foras.

No, I am not. They are nothing more than a waste of resources. I was advocating the setting of a grant scheme with accountability for the creation of media in Irish and the promotion of the language. The accountability element is key or we end up back where we were before.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:39pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Try telling that to the French! Or English! Their languages are crucial to national identity and projecting that identity around the world.

They speak their languages.

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:40pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, I am not. They are nothing more than a waste of resources. I was advocating the setting of a grant scheme with accountability for the creation of media in Irish and the promotion of the language. The accountability element is key or we end up back where we were before.

Just a few pages back you were anti any kind of handout...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:41pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Try telling that to the French! Or English! Their languages are crucial to national identity and projecting that identity around the world.

Strawman arguement - I never argued this.

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2016 11:42pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Just a few pages back you were anti any kind of handout...

Because it's going into the pockets of government cronies. These grants would be for aspiring artists and entrepreneurs. There is a difference.

jno547 · 05-02-2016 11:44pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:48pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because it's going into the pockets of government cronies. These grants would be for aspiring artists and entrepreneurs. There is a difference.

Oiche mhaith, ancapailldorcha. Is docha i 2008, bhi tu in an smaoineamh nios laidre.

Goodnight ancapailldorcha - it seems in 2008 you were a bit more open minded.

Your attitude seems informed more by ingrained cynicism than reality, and that I cannot counter.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:48pm

jno547 wrote: »

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

You did - you said "who we are" - that implies plural. And I'm assuming you mean everyone Irish. Might nto have been intended as aorrogant - fair enough - but it still implies that what you think is important, everyone should think important.

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

Iwasfrozen · 05-02-2016 11:49pm

jno547 wrote: »

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

Except learning to speak it?

Every opportunity is an interesting metric though. If, hypothetically, you could pay any X amount of money to ensure the endangered language survives into the far future what would the minimum value of X be for you?

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:49pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Right, but it's not up to you either...

maudgonner · 05-02-2016 11:52pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't resent the language. I resent the special interest groups cowering behind it.

Wow. I think if you had revealed this fact a little earlier it might have helped lead to some constructive debate. But this thread seems to just be mired in backbiting and overreaction, with nobody actually listening to each other.

What a wasted opportunity. I'm out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:54pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Right, but it's not up to you either...

Where did I say it was?

thattequilagirl · 05-02-2016 11:55pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

.

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

As I said earlier on the thread, I'm in agreement about making it optional after junior cert. Most of the subjects I did for junior cert were compulsory and I think that's fine - few of us are mature enough at 12/13 to make informed choices. By 15, and facing into Leaving Cert, I do think it should be optional.

In either case, the way it is taught has to be improved.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-02-2016 11:58pm

thattequilagirl wrote: »

As I said earlier on the thread, I'm in agreement about making it optional after junior cert. Most of the subjects I did for junior cert were compulsory and I think that's fine - few of us are mature enough at 12/13 to make informed choices. By 15, and facing into Leaving Cert, I do think it should be optional.

In either case, the way it is taught has to be improved.

Yeah, now THIS is what I said!

But they've had nearly a certury to put together a syallabus that turns it into a language and makes it palatable for kids. How much longer is it going to take?

The probelm is when people have to do it anyway, where's no motivation to improve it. As the inevitable status quo proves.

jno547 · 05-02-2016 11:59pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

You did - you said "who we are" - that implies plural. And I'm assuming you mean everyone Irish. Might nto have been intended as aorrogant - fair enough - but it still implies that what you think is important, everyone should think important.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

I did..you said.... tiring,
Compulsory Irish to Leaving cert is here and hopefully here to stay and I fully endorse that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-02-2016 12:01am

jno547 wrote: »

I did..you said.... tiring,
Compulsory Irish to Leaving cert is here and hopefully here to stay and I fully endorse that.

So you are in favour of people making up their own minds as well as forcing them to learn it...?

If you find debate tiring, you're on the wrong website.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2016 12:03am

maudgonner wrote: »

Wow. I think if you had revealed this fact a little earlier it might have helped lead to some constructive debate. But this thread seems to just be mired in backbiting and overreaction, with nobody actually listening to each other.

What a wasted opportunity. I'm out.

I was very clear about this.

jno547 · 06-02-2016 12:04am

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Every opportunity is an interesting metric though. If, hypothetically, you could pay any X amount of money to ensure the endangered language survives into the far future what would the minimum value of X be for you?

Ahh here we go, the monetary value of 'an endangered language' always has to rear it's ugly head, there is no price on preserving what is part of who I am. Its called pride which to me is priceless. Try it out sometime you might be surprised and get something other than monetary gain out of it.

Iwasfrozen · 06-02-2016 12:09am

jno547 wrote: »

Ahh here we go, the monetary value of 'an endangered language' always has to rear it's ugly head, there is no price on preserving what is part of who I am. Its called pride which to me is priceless. Try it out sometime you might be surprised and get something other than monetary gain out of it.

There's no price? So you would spend all your money? Sell your car? Your house? Pauperize your family? X would approach infinity for you? Go on humour me, give me a realistic answer.

I'm interested in what value a man places on a language he doesn't speak but claims is part of his identity.

jno547 · 06-02-2016 12:11am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

So you are in favour of people making up their own minds as well as forcing them to learn it...?

Have you a problem reading what I type or is it just tiredness ???
On the contrary its a great site for a debate, just difficult when people only see what they want between the lines.
Oiche mhaith, thats Good Night.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-02-2016 12:14am

jno547 wrote: »

Have you a problem reading what I type or is it just tiredness ???
On the contrary its a great site for a debate, just difficult when people only see what they want between the lines.
Oiche mhaith, thats Good Night.

Hmm.... looks like we have found our chess-playing pigeon....

Permabear · 06-02-2016 12:16am

This post has been deleted.

jno547 · 06-02-2016 12:20am

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

All the more important then that we protect and preserve the little culture that exists here.

maudgonner · 06-02-2016 12:20am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was very clear about this.

Fair enough, I missed it - I tend to swear off this thread every few days cause it gives me Hulk rage. Way too much bitterness and entrenched views for me

thattequilagirl · 06-02-2016 12:24am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I am fully in favour of broadening the definition of what it means to be Irish to include greater diversity. This shouldn't mean abandoning Irish though.

Permabear · 06-02-2016 12:31am

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs · 06-02-2016 12:56am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's no price? So you would spend all your money? Sell your car? Your house? Pauperize your family? X would approach infinity for you? Go on humour me, give me a realistic answer.

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Iwasfrozen · 06-02-2016 4:05am

Wibbs wrote: »

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Well yes, I was using hyperbole for emphasis.

Shep_Dog · 06-02-2016 6:30am

jno547 wrote: »

There is an old Irish proverb which translated says "a country without a language is a country without an identity "

That's not an old Irish proverb and you've misquoted Padraig Pearse, who made it up.

It's also nonsense. Every country has a language.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2016 11:09am

Wibbs wrote: »

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Well, Wibbs we have a system which exists to enrich government cronies and when this system is challenged at all they cower behind the language and hold it hostage as if cutting off their gravy train will result in the final death of the language. It's easy to moan about public money when it's being wasted, less so when it achieves results.

Galego · 06-02-2016 11:19am

Shep_Dog wrote: »

That's not an old Irish proverb and you've misquoted Padraig Pearse, who made it up.

It's also nonsense. Every country has a language.

Many have many more than one because they knew how to keep them alive, not just at the schools!

thattequilagirl · 06-02-2016 11:30am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Well, Wibbs we have a system which exists to enrich government cronies and when this system is challenged at all they cower behind the language and hold it hostage as if cutting off their gravy train will result in the final death of the language. It's easy to moan about public money when it's being wasted, less so when it achieves results.

If your gripe is with government cronyism and waste, there are many, many examples of that in Ireland.

You see the money spent on Irish as a waste, but I don't. Is your opinion more important or valuable than mine?

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2016 11:34am

thattequilagirl wrote: »

If your gripe is with government cronyism and waste, there are many, many examples of that in Ireland.

You see the money spent on Irish as a waste, but I don't. Is your opinion more important or valuable than mine?

It's a waste because the vast majority of the population is not fluent. Worse, people aren't gaining skills which would help the country because they have to spend so long trying to learn from a fundamentally broken syllabus.

thattequilagirl · 06-02-2016 11:44am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's a waste because the vast majority of the population is not fluent. Worse, people aren't gaining skills which would help the country because they have to spend so long trying to learn from a fundamentally broken syllabus.

So we're back to your confusion over whether you object to the money being spent, or that it's not spent more effectively. For the record, about 55,000 people take oral, aural and written fluency exams each year and the vast majority pass it. So your point is null and void.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2016 11:48am

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So we're back to your confusion over whether you object to the money being spent, or that it's not spent more effectively. For the record, about 55,000 people take oral, aural and written fluency exams each year and the vast majority pass it. So your point is null and void.

Another figure plucked from nowhere. It's barely above 1% of the population which seems small for a supposed national language.

Why do you hate Irish?

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