Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!

Pompous · 12-03-2012 10:02am #1

Yet boards mods seem to think so. There is actually a forum that goes by the title 'Atheism & Agnosticism'.

I am disappointed that boards is perpetuating the misconception that atheists are agnostics, and vice versa. They are so different from eachother that having a forum with this title is like having a forum called 'Catholicism & Protestantism', or 'Agoraphobia & Claustrophobia'. Sure, they have the same theme and all, but to call them the same thing is ignorant and offensive.

I have put this thread in AH because I would surely be banned for voicing my opinion elsewhere on this site.

12-03-2012 10:03am

it's called one AND the other because they aren't the same

give over

Meesared · 12-03-2012 10:05am

Pompous wrote: »

Yet boards mods seem to think so. There is actually a forum that goes by the title 'Atheism & Agnosticism'.

I am disappointed that boards is perpetuating the misconception that atheists are agnostics, and vice versa. They are so different from eachother that having a forum with this title is like having a forum called 'Catholicism & Protestantism', or 'Agoraphobia & Claustrophobia'. Sure, they have the same theme and all, but to call them the same thing is ignorant and offensive.

I have put this thread in AH because I would surely be banned for voicing my opinion elsewhere on this site.

There is also a Forum called Beer guts and Receeding hairlines, by your logic they are also the same thing. :rolleyes:

Turtyturd · 12-03-2012 10:06am

Likewise Ranting and Raving....they are not even close.

Ghost Buster · 12-03-2012 10:10am

Pompous wrote: »

Yet boards mods seem to think so. There is actually a forum that goes by the title 'Atheism & Agnosticism'.

I am disappointed that boards is perpetuating the misconception that atheists are agnostics, and vice versa. They are so different from eachother that having a forum with this title is like having a forum called 'Catholicism & Protestantism', or 'Agoraphobia & Claustrophobia'. Sure, they have the same theme and all, but to call them the same thing is ignorant and offensive.

I have put this thread in AH because I would surely be banned for voicing my opinion elsewhere on this site.

Are you that desperate to start a thread, really.? Try harder.

Just spotted 'self defence and martial arts'. So my house alarm is a Ninja? Boards is silly......

Pompous · 12-03-2012 10:14am

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Are you that desperate to start a thread, really.? Try harder.

Just spotted 'self defence and martial arts'. So my house alarm is a Ninja? Boards is silly......

Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 12-03-2012 10:14am

Actually, they are. All agnostics are atheists but all atheists are not agnostics. A bit like squares and rectangles. Contemporary usage of the term atheist is usually incorrect, as one just has to lack belief in a deity to be an atheist, not believe for sure that none exist.

Pompous · 12-03-2012 10:16am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Actually, they are. All agnostics are atheists but all atheists are not agnostics. A bit like squares and rectangles. Contemporary usage of the term atheist is usually incorrect, as one just has to lack belief in a deity to be an atheist, not believe for sure that none exist.

I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. Go read up on their actual definitions.

Duggy747 · 12-03-2012 10:17am

I really do believe it is butter.

Ghost Buster · 12-03-2012 10:20am

The 'atheism and agnosticism' thread makes no claim either way as to the relationship between the two terms. I however claim that the op is trolling.

Ghost Buster · 12-03-2012 10:21am

Pompous wrote: »

Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

Ask a stupid question......................(you know the rest)

Sergeant · 12-03-2012 10:25am

Who cares.

Pompous · 12-03-2012 10:27am

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Ask a stupid question......................(you know the rest)

Well the answer is bound to be a stupid one if it's an answer to a rhetorical question. But hey, 1+ for effort.

Pompous · 12-03-2012 10:28am

Sergeant wrote: »

Who cares.

This exactly. Thank you sir for illustrating the root of this problem.

Good night AH.

talkinyite · 12-03-2012 10:30am

theist = yes
agnostic = maybe
atheist = no

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 10:34am

talkinyite wrote: »

theist = yes
agnostic = maybe
atheist = no

Do you believe?
Theist = Yes
Atheist = No

Do you know?
Gnostic = Yes
Agnostic = No

talkinyite · 12-03-2012 10:40am

Seachmall wrote: »

Do you believe?
Theist = Yes
Atheist = No

Do you know?
Gnostic = Yes
Agnostic = No

Everything isn't as black and white as yes and no with agnostics, most don't believe they're capable of knowing and sit on the fence.

TPD · 12-03-2012 10:43am

In the interest of finishing this thread up quickly OP, what do you define atheist and agnostic to be?

MagicMarker · 12-03-2012 10:45am

talkinyite wrote: »

Everything isn't as black and white as yes and no with agnostics, most don't believe they're capable of knowing and sit on the fence.

Believing you're not capable of knowing is the same as not knowing, ergo you're an agnostic, and an atheist.

padd b1975 · 12-03-2012 10:48am

OSI wrote: »

You realise there is a Christianity forum right?

There is also a feedback forum.

talkinyite · 12-03-2012 10:48am

MagicMarker wrote: »

Believing you're not capable of knowing is the same as not knowing, ergo you're an agnostic, and an atheist.

that's why i liked his comment

but no atheism and agnosticism aren't the same things at all, like believing and knowing.

padd b1975 · 12-03-2012 10:55am

OSI wrote: »

What's your point?

Is feedback not the place to discuss problems with boards and its moderation?

Was not having a dig at you by any means.

44leto · 12-03-2012 11:01am

Pompous wrote: »

Yet boards mods seem to think so. There is actually a forum that goes by the title 'Atheism & Agnosticism'.

I am disappointed that boards is perpetuating the misconception that atheists are agnostics, and vice versa. They are so different from eachother that having a forum with this title is like having a forum called 'Catholicism & Protestantism', or 'Agoraphobia & Claustrophobia'. Sure, they have the same theme and all, but to call them the same thing is ignorant and offensive.

I have put this thread in AH because I would surely be banned for voicing my opinion elsewhere on this site.

So there is a board about BOTH 'Atheism & Agnosticism', there could also be a board about 'Catholicism & Protestantism' are they the same, no, but there is a relationship. Agnosticism=One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism, Atheism=disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

But its very rare I meet a true atheist, in my eyes they are always more agnostic. Watch the post backs I get when I post about my atheism, that includes no such thing as luck, ghosts, higher purpose, spirituality (of any description) when I die it is the end of the world so why care anything about biological posterity.

Or you could be agnostic and believe in no God but higher purpose,,I don't.

OP I think you are being anal. If you were a true atheist you wouldn't care. I don't.

Kidchameleon · 12-03-2012 11:09am

Op is very easily offended. Sounds more like a muslim actually...

ShooterSF · 12-03-2012 11:13am

talkinyite wrote: »

MagicMarker wrote: »

Believing you're not capable of knowing is the same as not knowing, ergo you're an agnostic, and an atheist.

that's why i liked his comment but no atheism and agnosticism aren't the same things at all.

Theist and atheist are opposite ends of belief. They make no claim to knowledge of said belief. They tell you what follows the words "in relation to the existence of god(s) I believe... "

agnostic and gnostic are at opposite ends of claims to knowledge. What muddies the whole issue is the fact that most atheists are agnostic and most theists are gnostic. Though not all are. People who say "id like to think there's something (in relation to deities)" would be agnostic theists.

Then you have people that claim to be right on the fence of theist/atheist and so describe themselves as agnostic but some of these people actually do hold a belief in one or the other but think the terms are gnostic in definition, so they refuse to answer on belief.

Then you also have ignostics which is what most people that describe themselves as purely agnostic probably mean.

Throw in terms like deist etc. and things can get messy! Oh and the op would have been allowed their say in the a& a forum imo. At the end of the day though, descriptors are just that, they mean to be shortcuts in conversation. I can tell you I'm an atheist and that should fill in blanks faster than telling you what I believe, think, feel and so on. As with any shortcut though it relies on both sides having the same understanding of the underlying definition.

WindSock · 12-03-2012 11:16am

Food and Drink. Not the same grrr
Snacks and Sweets, also not necessarily the same :mad:

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 11:20am

ShooterSF wrote: »

I can tell you I'm an atheist and that should fill in blanks faster than telling you what I believe, think, feel and so on.

WHY DO YOU HATE GOD?!

Stercus Accidit · 12-03-2012 11:23am

Seachmall wrote: »

WHY DO YOU HATE GOD?!

WHY DO YOU HATE HARRY POTTER, BOY WIZARD?

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 11:25am

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

WHY DO YOU HATE HARRY POTTER, BOY WIZARD?

I love Harry Potter.

Check, and, Mate.

OldGoat · 12-03-2012 11:31am

Don't get me started on the 'SciFi & Fantasy' forum. Now there's a pairing made in hell. Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

talkinyite · 12-03-2012 11:46am

I'm not an atheist or theist but understand it's easier for theists to think in zeros and ones when labeling people so it's no biggy. I'll stay as unspecified or 'other' in the census

AeoNGriM · 12-03-2012 11:55am

Pompous wrote: »

Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

If I were you, I'd take the fact that all you are getting is troll replies as a sign that no-one gives a fcuk.

Or should I say no-one gives a sh!t, as they aren't both the same.........

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 11:55am

talkinyite wrote: »

I'm not an atheist or theist

If you are not a theist you are, by definition, an atheist.

If you are not an atheist you are, by definition, a theist.

If you are neither then you do not exist.

Logical Fallacy · 12-03-2012 12:01pm

Pompous wrote: »

Are you that desperate to get your post count up, really?

If anyone has an intelligent retort I'd be happy to hear it.

Why ask for an intelligent retort to a flawed point?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 12-03-2012 12:05pm

Pompous wrote: »

I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. Go read up on their actual definitions.

I just did. And I'm still correct.

Logical Fallacy · 12-03-2012 12:08pm

OldGoat wrote: »

Don't get me started on the 'SciFi & Fantasy' forum. Now there's a pairing made in hell. Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

Simon R Greene does...and it's epic.

thechanger · 12-03-2012 12:15pm

Agnostics are just atheists in denial.

It's simply a YES/NO answer.

Do you believe?

Yes – Theist
No - Atheist

Contradictory to what most believe, atheists don't say – "There is no god". It's that they don't believe. If an agnostic is unsure, therefore she/he does not believe in god.

SeanW · 12-03-2012 12:21pm

talkinyite wrote: »

theist = yes
agnostic = maybe
atheist = no

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/141/1/d/Facepalm_Cat___Motivational_by_L4D2_fan.jpg
Words fail me

If you are not a theist you are, by definition, an atheist.

If you are not an atheist you are, by definition, a theist.

If you are neither then you do not exist.

Also nonsense. Firstly, Agnosticism is not half way between theism and atheism. Agnosticism is not so much saying that "The answer is uknown" it's more like "Unknown is the answer." It is the assertion that we have no basis on which to make any kind of claims about the non-physical realm (including the negative assertions of Atheism).

Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

Agnostics are not certain of this at all - not because we're half-way between some arbitrary religion and atheism, but because we've decided that the evidence is insufficient to accept any claim including the negative. It is said that the wisest statement in science is "I do not know."

I don't know if there's a god or any kind of spiritual realm or not - I conside the evidence inadequate.

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 12:24pm

SeanW wrote: »

Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

Nonsense, atheists are people who do not believe a God exists.

Everything else you're just ascribing to them.

I don't know if there's a god or any kind of spiritual realm or not - I conside the evidence inadequate.

So you're an atheist?

SeanW · 12-03-2012 12:25pm

thechanger wrote: »

Agnostics are just atheists in denial.

It's simply a YES/NO answer.

Do you believe?
Yes – Theist

No - Atheist

Contradictory to what most believe, atheists don't say – "There is no god". It's that they don't believe. If an agnostic is unsure, therefore she/he does not believe in god.

FALSE!

I am not an Atheist. My beliefs are guided by the knowledge that I accept. And I accept that I have no reason to believe any claim, including the negative. Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No. Partly because I don't think there's enough evidence, partly because I don't know which set of fairytales I would have to believe to answer yes (there are a bazillion religions and sub-religions in the world, each claiming they're exclusively correct). Ergo, unknown is the answer that I accept, both in knowledge and belief.
Oh and there are plenty of Atheists who seem to have the view that there is nothing outside the physical realm. Atheism = belief in the negative.

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 12:28pm

SeanW wrote: »

Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know"

Is that

I don't know if God exists.

Or

I don't know what I believe.

starbelgrade · 12-03-2012 12:28pm

OldGoat wrote: »

Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

The makers of the original Flash Gordon thought it was a good idea!

SeanW · 12-03-2012 12:33pm

Seachmall wrote: »

Is that
I don't know if God exists.

Or
I don't know what I believe.

Did you not read my posts? My religious stance can be summarised by the phrase "Unknown is the answer"

And yes, like the OP I'm also irked that Atheism and Agnosticism are lumped together in a single forum. But whever myself or another agnostic has tried to have a separate forum, our request threads usually end up getting hijacked by fundamaterialists.

Ghost Buster · 12-03-2012 12:33pm

What ever next? Country AND Western!!! One is a reference to a rural setting and the other is directional and yet both are used to describe a type of music popular in Monaghan, Longford and with folk with special needs.

Seachmall · 12-03-2012 12:36pm

SeanW wrote: »

Did you not read my posts? My religious stance can be summarised by the phrase "Unknown is the answer"

And yes, like the OP I'm also irked that Atheism and Agnosticism are lumped together in a single forum. But whever myself or another agnostic has tried to have a separate forum, our request threads usually end up getting hijacked by fundamaterialists.

But to the question "Do you believe God exists?" how would you answer?

From your response I'm going to presume it's "I don't know if God exists" (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's an invalid answer, you weren't asked what you know or don't know.

So, Do you believe God exists?

talkinyite · 12-03-2012 12:36pm

SeanW wrote: »

Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No.

That's pretty much the same as saying maybe.

44leto · 12-03-2012 12:36pm

Originally Posted by OldGoat View Post
Who in their right mind would mix swords in with rayguns? Pffft!

A good name for a new literary genre "rayguns and swords" fantasy and sci/fi do get hooped together, because us nerds read both, but I have grown out of fantasy, but I am still an avid Scifi head, its just that genre seems dead at the moment. Not even decent new writers are on the scene.

I use this thread as an opportunity to state that,, the son of a bitch executive who canceled "Caprica" is now my blood enemy, he will be got, in this life or the next.

MagicMarker · 12-03-2012 12:40pm

SeanW wrote: »

Atheists, on the other hand, are certain that everything we can see and percieve is everything that is. They are certain that we do not have souls, there is no afterlife and no god.

Nonsense, atheists simply have no belief in a god, that's all. They can still believe in an afterlife, a soul, ghosts, or fairies if they so wish.

pickarooney · 12-03-2012 12:40pm

Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!

It's true! I didn't believe it at first but now I'm not sure.

CrazyRabbit · 12-03-2012 12:42pm

I used to believe in God, but then I took some science to the knee.

MagicMarker · 12-03-2012 12:43pm

SeanW wrote: »

FALSE!

I am not an Atheist. My beliefs are guided by the knowledge that I accept. And I accept that I have no reason to believe any claim, including the negative. Ergo, my answer to "Do you believe?" is "I don't know" not Yes or No. Partly because I don't think there's enough evidence, partly because I don't know which set of fairytales I would have to believe to answer yes (there are a bazillion religions and sub-religions in the world, each claiming they're exclusively correct). Ergo, unknown is the answer that I accept, both in knowledge and belief.
Oh and there are plenty of Atheists who seem to have the view that there is nothing outside the physical realm. Atheism = belief in the negative.

If you believe, then you are a theist. If you are anything else, including not knowing what you are, then you are an atheist. As you still don't have any belief in a god.

Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!

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