Enough

ART6 · 23-01-2014 6:46pm #1

I am not sure where the right place to post this is but Irish Economy is the only place I could think of so, mods, I am at your mercy!

At lunchtime today my village shop was raided by armed thugs. Our village is eight miles away from the city, and the nearest Garda station is on the other side of the city. The station that was only three miles away was closed long ago. We are a small community that thought itself secure and too remote from the troubles that seem to be afflicting our country nowadays. How wrong we were!

The owner of the shop is my friend, and is a pillar of the community. His assistant is a lovely lady that I share jokes with every morning when I go for the messages. That some vermin could do that to him and to her inflames me with rage, and by all of the gods I want them to be caught and to suffer for it. If I had my way, and ignoring this human rights world that we now appear to live in, I would flog the B.... to the inch of their lives!

Unfortunately, I know that if the thugs are caught (unlikely) and are brought to court, one will plead that his girlfriend was pregnant and he needed the money. Another will plead that he had a deprived upbringing because his parents spend all of their welfare money on drugs and booze and couldn't afford to buy him a teddy to cuddle. A learned judge will seek psychological reports, will give bail, and will finally pass a sentence that will be reduced by any time spent in police custody, with half of it suspended with the result that the thugs will be immediately released into the community, laughing their sick heads off, to resume their activities. In all of this convoluted legal procedure the HUMAN RIGHTS of the miscreants will be respected, but not those of the victims like my friends.

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

Ah no. We can establish neighbourhood watches that require the people to protect themselves when the state refuses to, but we cannot take up arms against the criminals that threaten us because that might infringe the criminal's human rights. We can now resist them provided that we only use "reasonable force" when those of us who are not trained in the military or the Gardai would not know what "reasonable force" is. Is smacking a knife-wielding intruder over the head with an axe reasonable force Mister Shatter? Will doing that to protect my wife and my family constitute unreasonable force that might get me a prison sentence along with all the serious criminals who have not paid their TV licences?

This has got to stop. This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop. It is the first and absolute duty of government to ensure the protection of its people and the application of the law that the people determined (but not necessarily what the liberal elite in politics chose and certainly not what politicians in ivory towers removed from common life dictate ).

Where do we go from here? If, in our village, we are to to defend ourselves, then why should we not take up arms? Ah no! That leads to vigilante groups, and no civilised society could countenance that. FINE. THEN LET THE STATE DO IT'S DAMNED JOB FOR ONCE!!!!

woodoo · 23-01-2014 7:21pm

ART6 wrote: »

Where do we go from here?

The big issue for me is the lax sentencing in this country. Everyone needs to being this issue up on the doorsteps when politicians come around election time. Or contact them at their clinics. Without the public really putting pressure on the politicians then there is no chance of it changing.

The first question i'll be asking is why some scrot with 50 or 60 convictions isn't given a good long term in prison.

Damien360 · 23-01-2014 8:54pm

woodoo wrote: »

The big issue for me is the lax sentencing in this country. Everyone needs to being this issue up on the doorsteps when politicians come around election time. Or contact them at their clinics. Without the public really putting pressure on the politicians then there is no chance of it changing.

The first question i'll be asking is why some scrot with 50 or 60 convictions isn't given a good long term in prison.

This will not happen. The politicians will not touch the courts in case they shout political interference in the courts, despite the fact that every single judge has been appointed by a serving government.

As long as the legal merry-go-round/gravy train is allowed to continue, the laughable situation of people walking the streets with 50/60 convictions will continue.

There should be a limit and then you disappear for many years. Not quite 3 strikes and you are out, but a points system that accounts for the seriousness of the crime and then you get shipped away for many years.

Build a prison away from dublin to reduce cost of land purchase and provide skype for prisoners court visits and family visits. No need for silly trips to see the judge at taxpayer expense. Legal costs can be curtailed by change that the state will pay a maximum of € ? per day only, regardless of outcome, for all legal aid. They can still get the best lawyers but have to pay the difference themselves.

Might need consitutional change to force judge to accept skype or similar.

Prison a holiday with your buddies at the moment for the scumbags.

carpejugulum · 23-01-2014 9:41pm

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

ART6 · 23-01-2014 10:24pm

carpejugulum wrote: »

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

Perhaps because it would permit me and my community to protect ourselves against attackers who are armed?

wexie · 23-01-2014 10:34pm

carpejugulum wrote: »

How would taking up arms help you exactly?

Once 4 or 5 robbers are shot in a shop it's unlikely it'll get robbed again.*

*YMMV

On a somewhat more serious note, while it's certainly not the best answer I can definitely see why shopkeepers and the likes are arming themselves if they know the gards are 45 minutes away (if they're coming at all).

It's not an ideal solution but it's certainly understandable and I'd be surprised if this isn't already happening around the country.

carpejugulum · 23-01-2014 10:46pm

ART6 wrote: »

Perhaps because it would permit me and my community to protect ourselves against attackers who are armed?

No, it wouldn't.

ART6 · 23-01-2014 11:13pm

carpejugulum wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

You seem very sure of that. I am not. I reserve the right to defend myself, and I am quite good at doing so. However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

Scofflaw · 24-01-2014 3:36am

ART6 wrote: »

You seem very sure of that. I am not. I reserve the right to defend myself, and I am quite good at doing so. However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

longhalloween · 24-01-2014 3:40am

I'd like a prison on the Blasket Islands, Alcatraz style.

D Trent · 24-01-2014 3:42am

ART6 wrote: »

I am not sure where the right place to post this is but Irish Economy is the only place I could think of so, mods, I am at your mercy!

At lunchtime today my village shop was raided by armed thugs. Our village is eight miles away from the city, and the nearest Garda station is on the other side of the city. The station that was only three miles away was closed long ago. We are a small community that thought itself secure and too remote from the troubles that seem to be afflicting our country nowadays. How wrong we were!

The owner of the shop is my friend, and is a pillar of the community. His assistant is a lovely lady that I share jokes with every morning when I go for the messages. That some vermin could do that to him and to her inflames me with rage, and by all of the gods I want them to be caught and to suffer for it. If I had my way, and ignoring this human rights world that we now appear to live in, I would flog the B.... to the inch of their lives!

Unfortunately, I know that if the thugs are caught (unlikely) and are brought to court, one will plead that his girlfriend was pregnant and he needed the money. Another will plead that he had a deprived upbringing because his parents spend all of their welfare money on drugs and booze and couldn't afford to buy him a teddy to cuddle. A learned judge will seek psychological reports, will give bail, and will finally pass a sentence that will be reduced by any time spent in police custody, with half of it suspended with the result that the thugs will be immediately released into the community, laughing their sick heads off, to resume their activities. In all of this convoluted legal procedure the HUMAN RIGHTS of the miscreants will be respected, but not those of the victims like my friends.

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

Ah no. We can establish neighbourhood watches that require the people to protect themselves when the state refuses to, but we cannot take up arms against the criminals that threaten us because that might infringe the criminal's human rights. We can now resist them provided that we only use "reasonable force" when those of us who are not trained in the military or the Gardai would not know what "reasonable force" is. Is smacking a knife-wielding intruder over the head with an axe reasonable force Mister Shatter? Will doing that to protect my wife and my family constitute unreasonable force that might get me a prison sentence along with all the serious criminals who have not paid their TV licences?

This has got to stop. This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop. It is the first and absolute duty of government to ensure the protection of its people and the application of the law that the people determined (but not necessarily what the liberal elite in politics chose and certainly not what politicians in ivory towers removed from common life dictate ).

Where do we go from here? If, in our village, we are to to defend ourselves, then why should we not take up arms? Ah no! That leads to vigilante groups, and no civilised society could countenance that. FINE. THEN LET THE STATE DO IT'S DAMNED JOB FOR ONCE!!!!

Where did this raid occur? Or at least what is the nearest city?

fran38 · 24-01-2014 4:31am

So now I ask of you Minister Shatter, you who are supposed to preside over the shambles that has become the department of justice, what are you going to do about this developing situation? Close some more Garda stations and tell us we are not at risk when you enjoy 24/7 Garda protection? Tell that to my friend in our village shop! Tell us in small communities how we are supposed to protect ourselves when the state has abandoned us to roving gangs of bandits. Do we all evacuate our rural communities and move into the cities nearest to a Garda station and hope for the best when the minister might close that one too tomorrow?

I don't mean to be flippant OP. This obviously is a real concern to you. But do you think the minister of justice is an avid boardsie? Why not email him your post? This is like those 'open letters' to politicians we see in the letters section of broadsheets every once and a while. why not go straight to the source? While I don't know his governmental addy, I'm sure it's not too difficult to find.

ART6 · 24-01-2014 6:55am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't particularly want to go about armed, and I don't want my village shopkeeper to have to keep a shotgun behind his counter. Instead I expect the government to fulfill it's duty to protect it's citizens, and this government is doing so by closing Garda stations.

fran38 wrote: »

I don't mean to be flippant OP. This obviously is a real concern to you. But do you think the minister of justice is an avid boardsie? Why not email him your post? This is like those 'open letters' to politicians we see in the letters section of broadsheets every once and a while. why not go straight to the source? While I don't know his governmental addy, I'm sure it's not too difficult to find.

I doubt if the minister for justice, given his coalition's majority, reads any criticism of gives a damn when he hears of any. My purpose in posting here was simply that the more people know about such incidences the more chance there is that this government's behavior will be taken into account at the next election. And yes, I have every intention of writing to what passes for the minister for justice, although I have no doubt that I will be ignored.

RichardAnd · 24-01-2014 8:02am

If it were possible to purchase a firearm as per the United States, then shootings and the like would increase. However, the point that's often missed is that a gun is simply a machine. It only kills someone when it's in the hands of a human being. Guns don't make people more likely to kill each other than they already are. Humans are violent, irrational, destructive and emotional life forms, and they managed to kill each other very well long before guns were invented.

The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims. In my opinion, I see no problem with owning a gum for self defense. The state seems fairly incapable of protecting its citizens, and the police force seems more interested in collecting fines, so what are the people to do?

All lifeforms have a right and a ability to defend themselves? It's a nice thought that humans have evolved beyond all of that. Sadly, as with most of humanity's superiority complex fantasies, it's not true. If it were, I wouldn't need to lock my door at night, but I do. I'd also sleep more comfortably with the knowledge that if someone were to invade my home, I could at least defend myself without fear of the "justice" system.

My two cents.

ART6 · 24-01-2014 9:21am

RichardAnd wrote: »

If it were possible to purchase a firearm as per the United States, then shootings and the like would increase. However, the point that's often missed is that a gun is simply a machine. It only kills someone when it's in the hands of a human being. Guns don't make people more likely to kill each other than they already are. Humans are violent, irrational, destructive and emotional life forms, and they managed to kill each other very well long before guns were invented.

The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims. In my opinion, I see no problem with owning a gum for self defense. The state seems fairly incapable of protecting its citizens, and the police force seems more interested in collecting fines, so what are the people to do?

All lifeforms have a right and a ability to defend themselves? It's a nice thought that humans have evolved beyond all of that. Sadly, as with most of humanity's superiority complex fantasies, it's not true. If it were, I wouldn't need to lock my door at night, but I do. I'd also sleep more comfortably with the knowledge that if someone were to invade my home, I could at least defend myself without fear of the "justice" system.

My two cents.

Exactly! I don't want to have to resort to violence to protect myself. I expect the government and the police service to provide the assurance of my safety and that of my family, and I expect the justice system to punish severely any who attack me. If that is not to be the case then I reserve the right to defend myself by whatever manner I choose and be damned to Mr. Shatter!

golfball37 · 24-01-2014 10:28am

You can bet at least one of the assailants is probably out on bail currently and combined their convictions run past 50.

Still nobody will question the juciacary and how they allow the legal aid scam fund their god children in the legal profession at the expense of ordinary people.

johnnyskeleton · 24-01-2014 10:30am

Damien360 wrote: »

Might need consitutional change to force judge to accept skype or similar.

Or, just go down to one of the remand courts today and see the video link system being used.

Everyone is entitled to hold a view on how the legal system works, but if you want to suggest actual reforms you might consider what is actually happening at present.

jmayo · 24-01-2014 11:15am

carpejugulum wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

Ehh it might.
AFAIK criminality in a certain part of Mayo/Galway decreased rapidly after a certain individual was dealt with.

BTW the same individual had four bench warrants oustanding for his arrest, was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook and had 30 previous convictions.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Does the fact that the US allows arms make armed crime more or less common in the US than Ireland?

I think you'll find the answer is more, not less. Arming everyone in response to armed criminals seems to be one of those answers which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

Allowing everyone weapons doesn't make the criminal proportion of the population any smaller. But it does mean they're likely to routinely arm themselves, because they can expect resistance from their victims. And considering a criminal as opposed to a non-criminal, which is more likely to use their weapon?

cordially,
Scofflaw

And penalising those who use their weapons to defend themselves and their property is also wrong.
Oh and when people talk about arming themselves in Ireland they are not talking about tooling up with AKs, Glocks, AR15, etc.

And what always gets me is how people neglect to mention other countries with high gun ownership (sometimes where people can even possess actual military assault rifles) which doesn't have the same comparable level of gun crime as the US.

Zubeneschamali · 24-01-2014 11:46am

ART6 wrote: »

However, perhaps you would like to explain the alternatives open to me (and our village shop) when armed gangs seem to be able to roam the country at will?

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 12:15pm

Is this a rant at the criminal justice system or just Alan Shatter?

I seem to recall there being aggravated burglaries, untouchable judiciary & soft sentencing prior to 2011.

ART6 · 24-01-2014 12:25pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh it might.
AFAIK criminality in a certain part of Mayo/Galway decreased rapidly after a certain individual was dealt with.
BTW the same individual had four bench warrants oustanding for his arrest, was facing charges of attacking Gardaí with a slash hook and had 30 previous convictions.

And penalising those who use their weapons to defend themselves and their property is also wrong.
Oh and when people talk about arming themselves in Ireland they are not talking about tooling up with AKs, Glocks, AR15, etc.

And what always gets me is how people neglect to mention other countries with high gun ownership (sometimes where people can even possess actual military assault rifles) which doesn't have the same comparable level of gun crime as the US.

Quite. Switzerland for example. Perhaps the problem in the USA is not the number of guns per-se but might have something to do with demographics?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

I know what I'd prefer to give them!

As an update on this post, it appears that there were two masked robbers driving an English registered car. They had already robbed one shop in a nearby village, then raided the one in ours, and then moved on the attack another one fifteen miles away. There is only one road into and out of our village, and only two out of the last one they raided. To me this suggests a casual disregard for the Gardai in the firm expectation that their chances of being caught were zero -- and as it happened they were right! This, I suspect, is a situation particular to Ireland -- it is not so much a case of the level of violent crime and robbery, but more that the robbers are confident that they will not be caught and can go about their actions with impunity.

Each of the shops they raided were, with the exception of ours, post offices (ours was closed by An Post three years ago). Yet it seems not to have occurred to the Gardai to warn the others in the area after the first one was raided.

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 12:57pm

Can you name the villages please.

bmaxi · 24-01-2014 1:05pm

Firstly, I thing the OP is being naive in assuming that living in a small isolated community would make them immune from robbery, the shop in a village near where I live was robbed twice in the space of nine months and if that wasn't bad enough, both times by the same person. This is a damning indictment of the justice system. How can somebody convicted of a serious crime be free, within a few short months, to do the same again? How can someone given, IMO, a ridiculously short sentence of 30 months for committing the offence and carrying an offensive weapon, be free within four months of the sentencing? Neighbourhood Watch and Text Alert schemes can only go so far in cases like this, the situation still stands that even if there are several neighbours in the immediate vicinity, their only option is to call Gardaí who could take hours to arrive.
Another disgrace is the fact that those people who attacked and threatened the family in Tipperary have been given bail, these people have demonstrated that they are prepared to inflict terror and injury on innocent people and threaten to kill their children. These people are now free to carry on as before and have interim offences "taken into consideration" when they stand trial or indeed, if they stand trial. Given their background, the likelihood of them disappearing from the face of the planet is highly likely.
If you were the innocent family concerned, how secure would you feel going about your daily business, would you let your children out to play, would you worry about your elderly parents? That family have been the victims of a vicious attack and still can't feel safe in their own home even though the perpetrators have been caught. This is the reality of the Irish justice system.

ART6 · 24-01-2014 1:11pm

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is this a rant at the criminal justice system or just Alan Shatter?

I seem to recall there being aggravated burglaries, untouchable judiciary & soft sentencing prior to 2011.

My post was not intended to simply be a rant -- if that was my purpose I would have put it in After Hours. In fact I was attempting to stimulate debate on what I consider to be a failed justice and policing system, using this case as an example. I criticised Alan Shatter because he is the current justice minister and the one who has somehow improved rural policing by closing 100 rural Garda stations so that there are many communities without access to Gardai within ten or twenty miles. This does not mean that I am oblivious to the incompetence of previous ministers or that I have any party political leanings. On the contrary, I believe that Shatter is simply continuing with the long-establish policy of indifference to the responsibilities of government to protect its citizens.

spank_inferno wrote: »

Can you name the villages please.

Cheekpoint, Co. Waterford.

MilanPan!c · 24-01-2014 1:31pm

All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.

Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.

On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.

It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.

And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.

Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.

And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.

RichardAnd · 24-01-2014 1:39pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If an armed gang shows up to rob you, the thing to do is to give them the money.

And what would you do if there were to come back again and ask for more money you don't have? Of course, that assumes that they let you go after the first meeting.

spank_inferno · 24-01-2014 1:44pm

ART6 wrote: »

My post was not intended to simply be a rant -- if that was my purpose I would have put it in After Hours. In fact I was attempting to stimulate debate on what I consider to be a failed justice and policing system, using this case as an example. I criticised Alan Shatter because he is the current justice minister and the one who has somehow improved rural policing by closing 100 rural Garda stations so that there are many communities without access to Gardai within ten or twenty miles. This does not mean that I am oblivious to the incompetence of previous ministers or that I have any party political leanings. On the contrary, I believe that Shatter is simply continuing with the long-establish policy of indifference to the responsibilities of government to protect its citizens.

Cheekpoint, Co. Waterford.

What is your solution then?

Zubeneschamali · 24-01-2014 1:47pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

And what would you do if there were to come back again and ask for more money you don't have? Of course, that assumes that they let you go after the first meeting.

They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.

Godge · 24-01-2014 1:56pm

ART6 wrote: »

Exactly! I don't want to have to resort to violence to protect myself. I expect the government and the police service to provide the assurance of my safety and that of my family, and I expect the justice system to punish severely any who attack me. If that is not to be the case then I reserve the right to defend myself by whatever manner I choose and be damned to Mr. Shatter!

(1) You and your community and the rest of the country do not pay enough taxes to provide the service you want.

(2) 50 years of bad planning have led to too many communities too small to make provision of essential services economical.

This means that if you have 100 people paying tax in a village, how much tax do you think is necessary to provide a 24/7 garda service (about 3.5 full-time gardai), a primary school (4 teachers plus extras), a medical service, roads to the isolated village, electricity broadband etc. Well, I can tell you, a lot more tax than the 100 people pay at the moment.

RichardAnd · 24-01-2014 2:00pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make. What if you have no cash to give them?

As to your confidence that they will be arrested, there are two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it is just that; an assumption. Secondly, even if they were to be apprehended, they could mug, injure or even kill any number of people beforehand.

Zubeneschamali · 24-01-2014 2:14pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

What if you have no cash to give them?

They aren't getting any money on that raid, so.

Enough

Comments