Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

Little_Korean · 07-01-2013 5:15pm

Well, the PSNI are arresting people as part of the violence so...what else you do expect them to do???

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 5:27pm

Little_Korean wrote: »

Well, the PSNI are arresting people as part of the violence so...what else you do expect them to do???

Put the UVF in the same catergory as the Real and Continuity IRAs.

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 5:31pm

GRMA wrote: »

Of course the UVF ceasefire has been broken, for about the millionth time

Some loyalists these are, attacking her majesties police... maybe they'll be after the Brits next, dissident repiblicans can retire, loyalists are doing the work for them.

Bullets sent to SDLP member today

Yes it far from the first time they broken in it- but if Im correct this is the first time they have opened up on the British state?

Little_Korean · 07-01-2013 5:33pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Put the UVF in the same catergory as the Real and Continuity IRAs.

The UVF aren't attempting to wage a bombing campaign, or assassinate police officers or soldiers.

Apples and oranges.

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 5:37pm

Little_Korean wrote: »

The UVF aren't attempting to wage a bombing campaign, or assassinate police officers or soldiers.

Apples and oranges.

I dont think you have been following recent events.

Also the fact is that they have killed a good few more people that Militarist Republicans since supposedly being on cease fire.

Little_Korean · 07-01-2013 5:50pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

I dont think you have been following recent events.

Also the fact is that they killed a good few more people that Militarist Republicans since supposedly being on cease fire.

The guns used in the riots are a different matter to choosing an officer or soldier specifically to murder him.

Not to defend a bunch of drug-dealing gangsters but it's a distinction.

The PSNI have announced a desire at least to investigate any senior UVF links in the violence, so again, other than holding the line and arresting those they can, what else do people expect the PSNI to do?

Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved.

"It would be a line of investigation to establish whether that was a co-ordinated and organised 'organisational' position (by the UVF central leadership).

junder · 07-01-2013 6:19pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes it far from the first time they broken in it- but if Im correct this is the first time they have opened up on the British state?

Opened up with what exactly, according to the news it was a blank firing gun, so not much chance of killing anybody with it, moreover the idiot running about with it has been arrested and is being charged with possession

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 6:30pm

Little_Korean wrote: »

what else do people expect the PSNI to do?

What would they do if I blocked a road?

I don't understand why they can't grab them one at a time as soon as they start to assemble.
During a riot situation it is hard to make arrests but several times I have seen them standing in the road being watched by police who seem happy to allow them an hour.

awec · 07-01-2013 6:33pm

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SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 7:08pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

What would they do if I blocked a road?

I don't understand why they can't grab them one at a time as soon as they start to assemble.
During a riot situation it is hard to make arrests but several times I have seen them standing in the road being watched by police who seem happy to allow them an hour.

One thing that definitely needs doing is to stop throwing money at dodgy "Community Workers", Naomi Long had very wise words to say about people who pretend to speak in the names of communities and lord it over them in fear. Another thing that is unlikely to happen but still needs to be done is to weed out all Loyalist sympathizers from the Armed Forces.

awec · 07-01-2013 7:14pm

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junder · 07-01-2013 7:17pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that definitely needs doing is to stop throwing money at dodgy "Community Workers", Naomi Long had very wise words to say about people who pretend to speak in the names of communities and lord it over them in fear. Another thing that is unlikely to happen but still needs to be done is to weed out all Loyalist sympathizers from the Armed Forces.

So people should be expelled because of political belief?

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 7:21pm

http://fisherbelfast.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/journalist-threatened/

And so it continues.

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 7:23pm

junder wrote: »

So people should be expelled because of political belief?

Yes people who have political beliefs that form a threat to law abiding members of the community should be if possible prevented from gaining military knowledge in a sane society. I seriously that they allow hard-line Irish Republicans or revolutionary Communists to join up.

GRMA · 07-01-2013 7:28pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes people who have political beliefs that form a threat to law abiding members of the community should be if possible prevented from gaining military knowledge in a sane society. I seriously that they allow hard-line Irish Republicans or revolutionary Communists to join up.

Yes, members or supporters of parties like the UVF aligned PUP, or disgraceful organizations like the apprentice boys or the OO shouldnt be members of the armed forces, if they want to be accepted and taken seriously by the entire community

junder · 07-01-2013 7:28pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes people who have political beliefs that form a threat to law abiding members of the community should be if possible prevented from gaining military knowledge in a sane society. I seriously that they allow hard-line Irish Republicans or revolutionary Communists to join up.

And how would you garner that information?

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 7:35pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

One thing that definitely needs doing is to stop throwing money at dodgy "Community Workers", Naomi Long had very wise words to say about people who pretend to speak in the names of communities and lord it over them in fear. Another thing that is unlikely to happen but still needs to be done is to weed out all Loyalist sympathizers from the Armed Forces.

Can't see how they go about that.
Unless they banned all ex RUC members they can only restrict the symptoms... it will always be a biased police force to some extent.

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 7:38pm

awec wrote: »

On your own? They'd move you, quite rightly.

They are doing what they always do with large crowds rioting, they try to contain the situation and not make it any worse. We see it on a yearly basis, be that rioting in East Belfast or rioting in Ardoyne.

The lifted residents off the streets, some violently at Ardoyne but were unable to do the same to the loyalists. In Coleraine I saw about 7 people block a road while the police watched. Surely the police are capable of making 7 arrests together?

awec wrote: »

The PSNI have had their hands tied for a long time now, thanks to this "RUC heavy handedness" nonsense that I'm sure we've all heard spouted in the past from certain quarters.

Is that sarcasm or what?

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 7:40pm

junder wrote: »

And how would you garner that information?

Ex prisoners can only join as long as they support the Peace Process if I recall correctly.

junder · 07-01-2013 8:01pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Ex prisoners can only join as long as they support the Peace Process if I recall correctly.

So would suggest that there are already measures in place to stop 'undesirables' joining

GRMA · 07-01-2013 8:11pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The lifted residents off the streets, some violently at Ardoyne but were unable to do the same to the loyalists. In Coleraine I saw about 7 people block a road while the police watched. Surely the police are capable of making 7 arrests together?

Is that sarcasm or what?

Its a way of getting in a few kicks in at nationalists, really amazing the lengths people go to

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 8:13pm

junder wrote: »

And how would you garner that information?

Membership of bands with Paramilitary connections, membership of PUP; Im sure if they wanted to it would be possible to do security checks. However we both know its not going to happen. The qualities that make a "good" Loyalist Im sure come in useful in Afghanistan, etc.

The British Army isnt exactly known for the high caliber of its soldiers' character now is it?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/24/jailed-veteran-servicemen-outnumber-troops

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/one-in-10-prisoners-is-a-former-soldier-new-research-reveals-7944479.html

awec · 07-01-2013 8:16pm

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GRMA · 07-01-2013 8:18pm

Junder is in an excellent position to give us his thoughts on this seeing he is in the BA, a loyalist band, a member of the apprentice boys and I believe a supporter of the PUP (although outright supporter might be too strong a term, "has a soft spot for" might be more accurate)

Great opportunity for us to get a perspective we wouldnt normally get

Are there many people like you in the BA Junder?

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 8:27pm

GRMA wrote: »

Yes, members or supporters of parties like the UVF aligned PUP, or disgraceful organizations like the apprentice boys or the OO shouldnt be members of the armed forces, if they want to be accepted and taken seriously by the entire community

The thing is though that in the old "Principles of Loyalism" essay now vanished from the PUP that state that basically originally Loyalists picked up their "counter-insurgency" strategy from having served in the British Army in its various colonial wars in the 50s and 60s which couldnt be legally put into practice in Northern Ireland for various reasons. So they had basically already been brutalized by the Armed Forces. Banning the Apprentice Boys I think would be going to far- and people will argue that membership of the OO in rural areas has a different character to what it has in urban areas. Certainly a ban on membership of the Orange for people joining the PSNI should be considered.

Outside of things changing radically partition has been secured for at least the medium term but with the demographic changes the "fun" is going to go more and more out of it for Loyalists- this is what they are reacting to. We should remember that even before the Peter Robinson scandal Naomi Long got much more votes in East Belfast though.

GRMA · 07-01-2013 8:32pm

This isnt about flags at all as we know, in fact in the fifties flags only flew for these 15 or whatever days too, theres a pic doing the rounds on facebook

awec · 07-01-2013 8:36pm

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junder · 07-01-2013 8:39pm

GRMA wrote: »

Junder is in an excellent position to give us his thoughts on this seeing he is in the BA, a loyalist band, a member of the apprentice boys and I believe a supporter of the PUP (although outright supporter might be too strong a term, "has a soft spot for" might be more accurate)

Great opportunity for us to get a perspective we wouldnt normally get

Are there many people like you in the BA Junder?

There are sorts of people in the army from all sorts of back grounds ( including a not insignificant number from the Republic of Ireland) The fast majorty of whom are professionals in thier role of soldiers.

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 8:53pm

GRMA wrote: »

This isnt about flags at all as we know, in fact in the fifties flags only flew for these 15 or whatever days too, theres a pic doing the rounds on facebook

Maybe Junder can explain to us the real reasoning behind the mass rioting supposedly over the flag and why PUP has taken the stance of supporting the protests.

junder · 07-01-2013 9:18pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

Maybe Junder can explain to us the real reasoning behind the mass rioting supposedly over the flag and why PUP has taken the stance of supporting the protests.

I'm not a spokesperson for the pup

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 9:19pm

junder wrote: »

There are sorts of people in the army from all sorts of back grounds ( including a not insignificant number from the Republic of Ireland) The fast majorty of whom are professionals in thier role of soldiers.

Would you consider it unprofessional for a soldier to engage in civil disturbance or a loyalist march? Or would they fall into the small minority category?

junder · 07-01-2013 9:28pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Would you consider it unprofessional for a soldier to engage in civil disturbance or a loyalist march? Or would they fall into the small minority category?

I think everybody had the right to take part in peaceful, lawful protest. If you break the law you face the consequences

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 9:28pm

junder wrote: »

I'm not a spokesperson for the pup

Well can you explain what you believe is the reasoning behind these riots and death threats to politicians and journalists.

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 9:42pm

junder wrote: »

I think everybody had the right to take part in peaceful, lawful protest. If you break the law you face the consequences

Does everyone have the right to march in a loyalist or OO flute band? That in itself is not illegal.

junder · 07-01-2013 10:00pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Does everyone have the right to march in a loyalist or OO flute band? That in itself is not illegal.

As long as the appropiate documentation has been submitted to the police and the parades commission has agreed to the route then it's perfectly lawful.

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 10:17pm

junder wrote: »

As long as the appropiate documentation has been submitted to the police and the parades commission has agreed to the route then it's perfectly lawful.

And if a member of the security forces was there as an orange order member parading against the wishes of the residents would they be conducting themselves in a professional manner?

junder · 07-01-2013 11:08pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

And if a member of the security forces was there as an orange order member parading against the wishes of the residents would they be conducting themselves in a professional manner?

As long as said soldier is abiding by the law as laid out by the police and parades commission then he / she is intitled to take part a parade if they breech the law then they must face the consequences of the law

fasttalkerchat · 07-01-2013 11:18pm

junder wrote: »

As long as said soldier is abiding by the law as laid out by the police and parades commission then he / she is intitled to take part a parade if they breech the law then they must face the consequences of the law

In my opinion it would be unprofessional for a soldier to openly associate with a group that engages in sectarian behaviour.

woodoo · 07-01-2013 11:33pm

Where are the parents of the rioting children? One of the PSNI chiefs was saying today that there are a load of 10, 11, 12, 15 yr olds out rioting and not a parent in sight. I thought this was a west belfast problem where the nationalists carelessly have far to many children? Gallag what do you think?

junder · 07-01-2013 11:49pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

In my opinion it would be unprofessional for a soldier to openly associate with a group that engages in sectarian behaviour.

Good job Niether my band or Abod engage in sectarian behaviour. And just clarify I just TA I am during the week a full time Civilian working in a civilian job and living my life as a member of my community here in Northern Ireland

Jelle1880 · 08-01-2013 1:06am

woodoo wrote: »

Where are the parents of the rioting children? One of the PSNI chiefs was saying today that there are a load of 10, 11, 12, 15 yr olds out rioting and not a parent in sight. I thought this was a west belfast problem where the nationalists carelessly have far to many children? Gallag what do you think?

Maybe he was talking about the people from the Short Strand, who are using the protest as an excuse to riot as well.

Thomas_I · 08-01-2013 8:02am

junder wrote: »

There are sorts of people in the army from all sorts of back grounds ( including a not insignificant number from the Republic of Ireland) The fast majorty of whom are professionals in thier role of soldiers.

That might be so, although I think that those from the Republic of Ireland joined for quite different reasons than for political ones. It´s probably for the desire to "see more action" than they´d have in the Irish Defence Forces if not serving within the Unites of the UN.

In general, I think that it´s a tricky thing to exclude people from the civil service because of their political believes unless they´ve shown that they´re not conducting their job on the grounds of political neutrality while on duty.

Excluding members of the Orange Order just because of their membership would be quite the same thing to do as it has been under the "Stormont dictatorship" to prevent any Irish Catholic from joining the civil service.

junder · 08-01-2013 10:24am

Thomas_I wrote: »

That might be so, although I think that those from the Republic of Ireland joined for quite different reasons than for political ones. It´s probably for the desire to "see more action" than they´d have in the Irish Defence Forces if not serving within the Unites of the UN.

In general, I think that it´s a tricky thing to exclude people from the civil service because of their political believes unless they´ve shown that they´re not conducting their job on the grounds of political neutrality while on duty.

Excluding members of the Orange Order just because of their membership would be quite the same thing to do as it has been under the "Stormont dictatorship" to prevent any Irish Catholic from joining the civil service.

Exactly. The prison gaurd recent murdered was a member of the orange lodge and black preceptory and he was regarded by the prisoners he worked with as a thoroughly decent man which showd he conducted himself in a professional manner

gallag · 08-01-2013 11:13am

woodoo wrote: »

Where are the parents of the rioting children? One of the PSNI chiefs was saying today that there are a load of 10, 11, 12, 15 yr olds out rioting and not a parent in sight. I thought this was a west belfast problem where the nationalists carelessly have far to many children? Gallag what do you think?

Right, you are going to need to clear your head here of any pre conceived notions and try to understand my point, it is simply a mathematical point, if you read my posts you will see that I never said protestants were better parents or that catholics were worse/bad parents, I simply hypothesized that the reason for higher levels of social disobedience in west belfast is because of higher numbers of children I.e more children per family = higher number of bad/stressed parents/hoods. Even more simply more children = more chance of hoods regardless of religion. To make this even more simple, say there are 1000 ten year olds in east belfast and due to bad parenting 10 become involved in social disobedience, it stands to reason that if there are 2000 ten year olds in west belfast there would be about twice as many get involved in social disobedience. This would also not scale linearly, for example a single mother will do a better job raising 1 childe than she would do with 3 (on average).

I find it ridiculous that people wont accept catholics have more children for cultural/religious reasons then also point out that the consensus showes that catholics are increasingly outnumbering protestants when it suits their agenda.

West Belfast is a hell hole, did you watch the new years eve video the west joyriders put up that I linked? What reason would you give for it?

gallag · 08-01-2013 11:19am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39ExZ8Vu4A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Anyone that thinks I am exaggerating about the wilde west, watch the video, and the others they put up, actual joyrider groups put the videos up, the thing that most amazes me is the total lack of fear of the police, they just crash into them and sit there, for a police force that is tough on the nationalist community they sure dont seem to care.

**** anyone that thinks I have an agenda against west belfast just watch the last minute of that video, it is simply amazing and truly unique to west belfast****

circadian · 08-01-2013 11:34am

I don't see the difference between the lawlessness in West Belfast and the lawlessness displayed during these flag protests/riots. Shots being fired at police etc.
I know that the current riots aren't a regular occurrence (they are becoming that though) in the grand scheme of things. The same could be said of your examples of what goes on in West Belfast, the videos posted relate to the Christmas break.

Political policing? I don't think so, plastic bullets were fired last night and the water cannon deployed. The PSNI have obviously taken notice that it has gone beyond skirmishes with teenagers to a much more sinister type of disturbance. Live rounds fired, sledgehammers being used etc.

gallag · 08-01-2013 11:56am

circadian wrote: »

I don't see the difference between the lawlessness in West Belfast and the lawlessness displayed during these flag protests/riots. Shots being fired at police etc.
I know that the current riots aren't a regular occurrence (they are becoming that though) in the grand scheme of things. The same could be said of your examples of what goes on in West Belfast, the videos posted relate to the Christmas break.

Political policing? I don't think so, plastic bullets were fired last night and the water cannon deployed. The PSNI have obviously taken notice that it has gone beyond skirmishes with teenagers to a much more sinister type of disturbance. Live rounds fired, sledgehammers being used etc.

When were live rounds fired? Also, the ardoyne riots are far worse than what is happening in the east atm, but I would not say the ardoyne is lawless, west belfast is year round lawless, that is just one video, watch the rest. As to the original point of this thread over 100 flag protesters have been arrested to date.

circadian · 08-01-2013 1:40pm

Wasn't it reported live rounds were fired at the police recently?

junder · 08-01-2013 2:05pm

circadian wrote: »

Wasn't it reported live rounds were fired at the police recently?

No it was blank rounds and the fella responsable was arrested and charged with having a blank firing pistol

SoulandForm · 08-01-2013 4:14pm

junder wrote: »

No it was blank rounds and the fella responsable was arrested and charged with having a blank firing pistol

Link please?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/05/gunmen-fire-police-belfast-flag

Seeing as he is going to face murder charges...

Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

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