Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

fasttalkerchat · 04-01-2013 6:14pm

COYW wrote: »

I am an Irish protestant. What did I or my ancestors who have lived in this country for generations assimilate into, exactly? Also, a person can be Irish and British, in the same manner that you can be Scottish, Welsh, English and British.

... Some people came from Britain and stayed british. Others became Irish over time.

junder · 04-01-2013 6:51pm

karma_ wrote: »

He knows very well that there are streets like Tates ave. running off the Lisburn road but that doesn't suit his argument.

Tates avenue is not the lisburn road nor is ulsterville both are majorty 'houses of multiple occupancy' mostly rented out to students and nurses but I guess your talking about the village part of which is on tates avenue at the bottem end over the railway bridge in you could say the railway is the border between affluence and poverty

junder · 04-01-2013 6:53pm

gallag wrote: »

There are no union flags placed on the lisburn rd at anytime. Also no loyalist paramilitary flags, ever.

Sorry to contradict you but there are union flags put up over the 12th of July as the lisburn road is the main parade route to the field.

SoulandForm · 04-01-2013 9:21pm

"Loyalists" are rioting again in east Belfast according the BBC.

I wonder if the British dropped their HET charges against the UVF would the "Community workers"/PUP activists be suddenly able to restore peace and order?

junder · 04-01-2013 9:40pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

"Loyalists" are rioting again in east Belfast according the BBC.

I wonder if the British dropped their HET charges against the UVF would the "Community workers"/PUP activists be suddenly able to restore peace and order?

PUP are not behind these protests

BFDCH. · 05-01-2013 12:11am

junder wrote: »

PUP are not behind these protests

Riots are not protests.

Hopefully when they come down here they're allowed to march free and without hindrance or protection from the guardai

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 12:16am

junder wrote: »

PUP are not behind these protests

Aye, and Billy Hutchinson happened to be just strolling by?

woodoo · 05-01-2013 12:21am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Aye, and Billy Hutchinson happened to be just strolling by?

Billy Hutchinson i've heard of him, that's the murderer isn't it.

junder · 05-01-2013 12:29am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Aye, and Billy Hutchinson happened to be just strolling by?

Do you honestly think a political party that has been on it knees has the capacity to
Organise province wide protests?

junder · 05-01-2013 12:31am

woodoo wrote: »

Billy Hutchinson i've heard of him, that's the murderer isn't it.

But he did his time so according to Sinn Fein that's ok or does that rule only apply to republicans?

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 12:38am

junder wrote: »

But he did his time so according to Sinn Fein that's ok or does that rule only apply to republicans?

Some Provos were patriots, some were sectarian killers.

Because the PIRA did carry out disgusting sectarian murders (though what I would consider a sectarian murder by them would probably be very different to what you do) I wish everyone involved in them would bow out of politics. Not going to happen I know but the fact that they dont allows Unionism/Loyalism to say "What about the IRA?" and muddies the waters.

Billy Hutchinson though was a cold blooded sectarian murderer who has never said that the UVF campaign was shameful.

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 12:42am

junder wrote: »

Do you honestly think a political party that has been on it knees has the capacity to
Organise province wide protests?

PUP was always a bit of a joke though wasnt it?

And it was dropped pretty fast once the DUP came onside of the British governments plans by its important backers.

The whole UVF sympathizing band scene network remains pretty powerful and a lot of key figures in that would PUP.

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 12:47am

At the end of the day what do you want Junder?

The Union has never been more secure and thats not going change for the foreseeable future but Northern Ireland remains sectarian hell hole poisoned by poverty and unemployment with things likely to get worse rather than better.

Why this continual aggression against the CNR community, why this continued "Loyality" to the British State?

If you reached out to the Tea Eggs you might that they arent so bad after all.

junder · 05-01-2013 12:52am

SoulandForm wrote: »

PUP was always a bit of a joke though wasnt it?

And it was dropped pretty fast once the DUP came onside of the British governments plans by its important backers.

The whole UVF sympathizing band scene network remains pretty powerful and a lot of key figures in that would PUP.

You think? See in Northern Ireland we would call that bull****. There are several hundreds of loyalist bands across the UK some are paramiltary connected (both uda and UVF) most are not, some are blood and thunder some are Melody non are connected to a political party. My band (sorry did I forget to mention that) is not connected to paramiltarys, carrys no paramiltarys banners, is a melody band and has been in the road for 130 years, alot longer then the pup has been around

junder · 05-01-2013 12:57am

SoulandForm wrote: »

At the end of the day what do you want Junder?

The Union has never been more secure and thats not going change for the foreseeable future but Northern Ireland remains sectarian hell hole poisoned by poverty and unemployment with things likely to get worse rather than better.

Why this continual aggression against the CNR community, why this continued "Loyality" to the British State?

If you reached out to the Tea Eggs you might that they arent so bad after all.

What I want is respect and tolerance for my culture I also want bigoted idiots to stop assuming that just because I am in a band or the apprentice boys does not mean I am sectarian I also want those same bigoted idiots to stop assuming that I have never met or indeed that I don't have any friends from the 'CNR' community

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 12:58am

junder wrote: »

You think? See in Northern Ireland we would call that bull****. There are several hundreds of loyalist bands across the UK some are paramiltary connected (both uda and UVF) most are not, some are blood and thunder some are Melody non are connected to a political party. My band (sorry did I forget to mention that) is not connected to paramiltarys, carrys no paramiltarys banners, is a melody band and has been in the road for 130 years, alot longer then the pup has been around

The fact that I said UVF sympathizing band scene rather than band scene seems to have been lost on. The UDA seem to be good boys so to speak these days which maybe is why they are not having HET investigations and Jackie has being trying to be rational on this issue as opposed to the PUP.

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:05am

junder wrote: »

What I want is respect and tolerance for my culture I also want bigoted idiots to stop assuming that just because I am in a band or the apprentice boys does not mean I am sectarian I also want those same bigoted idiots to stop assuming that I have never met or indeed that I don't have any friends from the 'CNR' community

What exactly do you mean by your culture?

I dont support the Alliance Party but I have family members in them, who are Ulster Protestants, Im a Protestant from Ulster and Im a Republican- what you are doing is turning a political position into a matter of culture when its not.

As I said before I have no problem with the Apprentice Boys- I wouldnt join them myself but each to their own.

junder · 05-01-2013 1:07am

SoulandForm wrote: »

The fact that I said UVF sympathizing band scene rather than band scene seems to have been lost on. The UDA seem to be good boys so to speak these days which maybe is why they are not having HET investigations and Jackie has being trying to be rational on this issue as opposed to the PUP.

You really don't have a clue do you. Why not go on the pup website and see what they have to say rather then jackie McDonald's who is universally despised by most of the loyalist community. Of course his speeches sound good they are written for him by the British government.

http://www.pupni.com/

junder · 05-01-2013 1:11am

SoulandForm wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by your culture?

I dont support the Alliance Party but I have family members in them, who are Ulster Protestants, Im a Protestant from Ulster and Im a Republican- what you are doing is turning a political position into a matter of culture when its not.

As I said before I have no problem with the Apprentice Boys- I wouldnt join them myself but each to their own.

You do realise that the apprentice boys are a 'loyal' order in that to be a member you swear loyalty to the monarchy

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:11am

junder wrote: »

You really don't have a clue do you. Why not go on the pup website and see what they have to say rather then jackie McDonald's who is universally despised by most of the loyalist community. Of course his speeches sound good they are written for him by the British government.

http://www.pupni.com/

Bit like David Irvine's than?

As a Loyalist why do you have problem with people's speeches been written by the British government, after all isnt that what you are supposed to be Loyal too?

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:13am

junder wrote: »

You do realise that the apprentice boys are a 'loyal' order in that to be a member you swear loyalty to the monarchy

Yes I do. I disagree with Unionism because I think its bad for everyone in Northern Ireland- that doesnt mean that I HATE all Unionists.

junder · 05-01-2013 1:17am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Bit like David Irvine's than?

As a Loyalist why do you have problem with people's speeches been written by the British government, after all isnt that what you are supposed to be Loyal too?

Daivd ervine speeches where written by himself. You claim to have family who are ulster Protestants and yet you show no knowledge of any of the nuances of the loyalist community

junder · 05-01-2013 1:18am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I do. I disagree with Unionism because I think its bad for everyone in Northern Ireland- that doesnt mean that I HATE all Unionists.

Your doing a pretty good job of convincing me that you do.

gallag · 05-01-2013 1:19am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I do. I disagree with Unionism because I think its bad for everyone in Northern Ireland- that doesnt mean that I HATE all Unionists.

Do you think everyone in the north and south would be better of in a ui? If so could you outline sone economic plans you think would make it work?

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:20am

junder wrote: »

Daivd ervine speeches where written by himself. You claim to have family who are ulster Protestants and yet you show no knowledge of any of the nuances of the loyalist community

Maybe because Im not from the Loyalist community?

A member of my family had his house attacked with young children inside it during the Anglo-Irish crisis because he was a member of the RUC. Such things tend to have an effect. In the house I was raised in Loyalists were as bad as the Provos.

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:22am

junder wrote: »

Your doing a pretty good job of convincing me that you do.

Yeah I also HATE everyone who believes in Capitalism because Im a Socialist- seriously catch yourself on.

Dubhlinner · 05-01-2013 1:24am

junder wrote: »

You really don't have a clue do you. Why not go on the pup website and see what they have to say rather then jackie McDonald's who is universally despised by most of the loyalist community. Of course his speeches sound good they are written for him by the British government.

http://www.pupni.com/

would seem the the PUP are the only party in NI with any meaningful proposals on ending sectarianism, though i guess sectarianism suits the likes of Sinn Fein/DUP down to the ground really.

- Financial incentives for parents to enrol their children into integrated schools. Integrated education is vital to removing fear and suspicion between the two communities in Northern Ireland. It is unacceptable that our children are educated separately for the first sixteen years of their lives because of their parents’ religious beliefs. The PUP will work to increase participation in integrated education across NI.

junder · 05-01-2013 1:26am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Maybe because Im not from the Loyalist community?

A member of my family had his house attacked with young children inside it during the Anglo-Irish crisis because he was a member of the RUC. Such things tend to have an effect. In the house I was raised in Loyalists were as bad as the Provos.

I am a loyalist and I have never petrol bombed anybody on account of me not being involved in paramiltary groups

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:27am

gallag wrote: »

Do you think everyone in the north and south would be better of in a ui? If so could you outline sone economic plans you think would make it work?

Northern Ireland is an incredibly beautiful place and has great tourist potential- if you take away the tribal war that has been used by a foreign government to maintain its rule it could really take off. If all the psychological energy that goes into nonsense by people in Northern Ireland was put into making it a great place could you imagine what would happen? Northern Ireland was far ahead of the south at the time of partition and now its behind-get rid of British rule and what could happen?

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:30am

junder wrote: »

I am a loyalist and I have never petrol bombed anybody on account of me not being involved in paramiltary groups

The DUP basically condoned attacks on RUC homes during the Anglo-Irish crisis.

Have PUP condemned the death threats and attacks on Alliance Party members' homes during this mess?

junder · 05-01-2013 1:38am

SoulandForm wrote: »

The DUP basically condoned attacks on RUC homes during the Anglo-Irish crisis.

Have PUP condemned the death threats and attacks on Alliance Party members' homes during this mess?

Er, yer they have

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 1:56am

junder wrote: »

Er, yer they have

Link?

Funny how the uber-Protestant junder has only posted once in the Christianity forum and that post was a political post. Yet he feels free to suppose who is a Protestant and who isnt.

SoulandForm · 05-01-2013 2:05am

Dubhlinner wrote: »

would seem the the PUP are the only party in NI with any meaningful proposals on ending sectarianism, though i guess sectarianism suits the likes of Sinn Fein/DUP down to the ground really.

Uh no. Other parties' support integrated education (the DUP has become pretty keen on it LOL)- but for it to succeed you would have to have schools as good as Catholic schools.

gallag · 05-01-2013 2:07am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland is an incredibly beautiful place and has great tourist potential- if you take away the tribal war that has been used by a foreign government to maintain its rule it could really take off. If all the psychological energy that goes into nonsense by people in Northern Ireland was put into making it a great place could you imagine what would happen? Northern Ireland was far ahead of the south at the time of partition and now its behind-get rid of British rule and what could happen?

I know exactly the tourist potential of n.i, no where close to plug the billions needed. I suppose it might increase a bit but I deal with tourists day in day out and the main selling point of n.i is the troubles, my customers never want to see the natural beauty of n.i they want to tour the peace divide and political tours etc. I think you will need to bulk that tourist cash up with a plan b?

SoulandForm · 06-01-2013 11:06am

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-01-05/gunmen-fire-on-police-in-belfast/?

Maybe Junder can explain how firing on the PSNI is defending "culture" in the eyes of these criminals since he seems to understand Loyalism?

What exactly is going through their heads?

Dubhlinner · 06-01-2013 11:35am

SoulandForm wrote: »

Uh no. Other parties' support integrated education (the DUP has become pretty keen on it LOL)- but for it to succeed you would have to have schools as good as Catholic schools.

What meaningful policy do they have on it? SinnFein/DUP are in government together why don't they legislate for it?

Saying they support it is about as useful as liking a stop poverty page on facebook.

gallag · 06-01-2013 3:57pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39ExZ8Vu4A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Newyears eve in lawless west belfast. Watch the last min to see how hard the psni are on "the other side"

gallag · 06-01-2013 4:01pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-01-05/gunmen-fire-on-police-in-belfast/?

Maybe Junder can explain how firing on the PSNI is defending "culture" in the eyes of these criminals since he seems to understand Loyalism?

What exactly is going through their heads?

Did you watch that video, peaceful protesters come under attack from Republicans.

junder · 07-01-2013 1:38am

A statement from billy Hutchinson made tonight

http://www.pupni.com/index.php/features/module-positions/protests-and-policing

junder · 07-01-2013 2:39am

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-01-05/gunmen-fire-on-police-in-belfast/?

Maybe Junder can explain how firing on the PSNI is defending "culture" in the eyes of these criminals since he seems to understand Loyalism?

What exactly is going through their heads?

The reporter Brian rowan is reporting that there in fact no shots fired last night

.jacksparrow. · 07-01-2013 9:52am

junder wrote: »

The reporter Brian rowan is reporting that there in fact no shots fired last night

Aye after a meeting they decided this!

junder · 07-01-2013 10:20am

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Aye after a meeting they decided this!

Erm, Brian rowan was not at the meeting, see he is a reporter, not a member of the pup. It appears Brian has tweeted that no live rounds where used

Thomas_I · 07-01-2013 1:56pm

gallag wrote: »

I know exactly the tourist potential of n.i, no where close to plug the billions needed. I suppose it might increase a bit but I deal with tourists day in day out and the main selling point of n.i is the troubles, my customers never want to see the natural beauty of n.i they want to tour the peace divide and political tours etc. I think you will need to bulk that tourist cash up with a plan b?

What kind of customers are these people? I wouldn´t go on a holiday to NI even if it would be for free because I´ve no interest in spending money to an area which is again, as so often in the past, depicting itself like "the madhouse" of Western Europe.

I wouldn´t deny that there are some parts in NI with an landscape worth a visit, but safety comes first and the best PR to prevent people from going to NI is what happened in the past weeks, just for the reason of "flying a flag" and "the very identiy of the Unionists/Loyalists". As to say "remove the flag from them and they´re nothing".

getz · 07-01-2013 2:09pm

Thomas_I wrote: »

What kind of customers are these people? I wouldn´t go on a holiday to NI even if it would be for free because I´ve no interest in spending money to an area which is again, as so often in the past, depicting itself like "the madhouse" of Western Europe.

I wouldn´t deny that there are some parts in NI with an landscape worth a visit, but safety comes first and the best PR to prevent people from going to NI is what happened in the past weeks, just for the reason of "flying a flag" and "the very identiy of the Unionists/Loyalists". As to say "remove the flag from them and they´re nothing".

most tourists who visit these shores ie northern ireland/and the republic,are from the UK, and most of them are from irish stock,derry/londonderry is hopefull that more tourists from around the world will come over to visit its city of culture, lets hope that city is calm this year.

Thomas_I · 07-01-2013 2:23pm

getz wrote: »

most tourists who visit these shores ie northern ireland/and the republic,are from the UK, and most of them are from irish stock,derry/londonderry is hopefull that more tourists from around the world will come over to visit its city of culture, lets hope that city is calm this year.

Thanks for that and yes, lets hope that city is calm this year.

COYW · 07-01-2013 4:10pm

gallag wrote: »

I suppose it might increase a bit but I deal with tourists day in day out and the main selling point of n.i is the troubles, my customers never want to see the natural beauty of n.i they want to tour the peace divide and political tours etc.

I found it very peculiar that the murals were painted over, given the tourism factor that has sprung from the conflict. The murals would be far more expressive of the sentiments in an area as opposed to some tour guide giving a spiel.

SoulandForm · 07-01-2013 4:24pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20929658

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Shots-fired-at-police-in-East-Belfast-in-latest-night-of-flag-protest-violence----185797162.html

The PSNI have now confirmed that senior members of the UVF are behind the trouble. This organization's abidding by its cease-fire has before this been unsteady leading to the resignation of Dawn Purvis from PUP after one of their murders.

Surely opening fire on a representative of the British State- the State they are supposedly "Loyal" too- if an incredibly sinister and worrying development?

Will the current Loyalist immaturity and violence finally force the hand of the British state to move seriously against Loyalism?

circadian · 07-01-2013 4:27pm

Murals certainly make a strong impression on visitors. They also serve as territorial markers to locals which I find detrimental to cross community relations.
I used to travel south from Derry and would always dread going through the likes of Newbuildings. The flags and kerbstones always instilled dread and I have absolutely no doubt the same feelings would be felt if someone from the other side of the fence were to pass through a nationalist area in similar decoration.

Anyway, I think the police are soft on anyone causing trouble like this because they're pretty much damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Come down hard on either side for things like the flag protests then the victim card is played. If they don't the political policing card is played.

Doesn't matter who's causing the trouble, both Nationalist and Loyalist groups operate the same when it comes to policing. Anything like the flag issue is just a reason for undesirables to behave like undesirables at the end of the day.

GRMA · 07-01-2013 4:31pm

Of course the UVF ceasefire has been broken, for about the millionth time

Some loyalists these are, attacking her majesties police... maybe they'll be after the Brits next, dissident repiblicans can retire, loyalists are doing the work for them.

Bullets sent to SDLP member today

Thomas_I · 07-01-2013 4:34pm

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20929658

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Shots-fired-at-police-in-East-Belfast-in-latest-night-of-flag-protest-violence----185797162.html

The PSNI have now confirmed that senior members of the UVF are behind the trouble. This organization's abidding by its cease-fire has before this been unsteady leading to the resignation of Dawn Purvis from PUP after one of their murders.

Surely opening fire on a representative of the British State- the State they are supposedly "Loyal" too- if an incredibly sinister and worrying development?

Will the current Loyalist immaturity and violence finally force the hand of the British state to move seriously against Loyalism?

I´ve also read the article from the bbc website before you´ve set up the link to it and this story has some new developments in which the British State can now use that opportunity to show them that their policy has changed towards the Unionists / Loyalists.

These Unionists / Loyalists are just "loyal" to themselves and there is imo no sign by them that they´re willing to abide by the law of the UK and above all accept and respect decisions made by vote within the Belfast City Council thus on a democratic basis.

Political Policing? PSNI soft on Loyalists

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