Reminder: stay out of cycle lanes

rp · 28-08-2014 10:26am #1

I've only myself to blame, riding out of town past Heuston in the on-road cycle lane, when a taxi turns left through me, he was very apologetic and the bike's ok, but it still hurt like hell.
It would not have happened if I'd been in the main part of the road, I know, I've seen the research that shows you are 30% more likely to be hit in a cycle lane, just now I've the bruising that proves it.

Alanstrainor · 28-08-2014 10:35am

Schools are back this morning, things are going to be hectic for the next couple of weeks! I had a rough time of it this morning. (Although not as bad as you it would seem!)

endacl · 28-08-2014 10:39am

Let me guess....

He didn't see you, and you came out of nowhere?

Hope you're ok.

Lucena · 28-08-2014 12:38pm

I hope you’ll be alright.

Not a huge fan of certain cycle lanes myself, as you end up slaloming in and out between the gravel, bits of glass etc. that tend to accumulate there. I also get the feeling, although this is maybe me being paranoid, that it p1sses off drivers when there’s a cycle lane but the cyclist is on the road.

I’d never heard about there being higher risks of collision in a cycle lane. Do you have any links?

rp · 28-08-2014 12:54pm

Lucena wrote: »

I hope you’ll be alright.

Got a great shiner (from my own handlebars), but nothing broken thanks.

I’d never heard about there being higher risks of collision in a cycle lane. Do you have any links?

I've just found this blog, seems to be a pretty comprehensive round-up:
http://ianbrettcooper.blogspot.ie/2012/08/bicycle-infrastructure-studies.html

It was because of this poor record that the Dutch redesigned their lanes in the 70's - what we have called 'cycle lanes' are a horse of a very different colour...

check_six · 28-08-2014 1:08pm

Lucena wrote: »

I’d never heard about there being higher risks of collision in a cycle lane. Do you have any links?

If you are on a cycle track you will typically lose priority at all junctions with minor roads. You will also notice that other vehicles pay no attention to you whatsoever, so whenever you try to go straight through a junction you are putting yourself in harms way. This is due to people turning into the minor road without accounting for you on the track inside them (as in the OP's post), or people pulling out of sideroads and expecting you (on the main road) to slam on the brakes.

In short, either stay out of a cycle track anywhere near a junction, or keep those spidey-senses working hard.

Keep_Her_Lit · 28-08-2014 1:20pm

Sorry to hear you took a knock, rp, though glad to hear you're OK.

Maybe you should consider heading out of town at the same rate that you head in to town ... there wouldn't be much traffic overtaking you then

Bloggsie · 28-08-2014 2:08pm

rp wrote: »

I've only myself to blame, riding out of town past Heuston in the on-road cycle lane, when a taxi turns left through me, he was very apologetic and the bike's ok, but it still hurt like hell.
It would not have happened if I'd been in the main part of the road, I know, I've seen the research that shows you are 30% more likely to be hit in a cycle lane, just now I've the bruising that proves it.

sorry for your troubles but glad your in one piece. I have started commuting & my spin takes me through the park, down parkgate st & on to the quays, I havent gone over 18-19 kmph along there easier to stop in a hurry if i have to, i have had numpties flying past me through red ligths & other numpties on the dublin city bikes, no helmets & with no clue as to the danger they are putting them selves in by hooring down the quays.

FFS your only going to work, its not worth dying for.

Yarisbob · 28-08-2014 3:10pm

Thats nasty OP but all too common today. A work collegue got zapped yesterday by exactly the same scenario. Bruises and a broken derailleur dropout - Worst of all the driver drove on. Either too inattentive to what he done or just plain pig ignorance.

As they say in the Hill Street Blues "Lets be Careful Out There"

tomasrojo · 28-08-2014 3:44pm

Bloggsie wrote: »

other numpties on the dublin city bikes, no helmets & with no clue as to the danger they are putting them selves in by hooring down the quays.

Funnily enough, dublinbikes have a good safety record, despite low use of helmets and hiviz and a somewhat liberal interpretation of the rules of the road.

Bloggsie · 28-08-2014 4:00pm

"liberal interpretation of the rules of the road", from what can be witnessed most days its very liberal! the other morning as I slowed at capel st bridge a numpty in a suit, earphones(pet peeve) in & briefcase swinging off the handlebars roared at me for stopping at a red light before going straight through, the urge to chase & slap him upside the head arose allbeit that it went away very quickly, if he keeps on cycling in that manner we will be reading about him as a bonnet ornament very soon!

Zyzz · 28-08-2014 4:22pm

Hope you reported it to the Gardai!

ckeego · 28-08-2014 9:01pm

Glad to hear that the OP is OK..

It must have been something in the water this morning.

Locked both wheels trying to avoid a bint in a white Micra outside Jurys in Ballsbridge-she pulled straight across me at the crossroads-things went VERY slow motion for a while!!! A female guard on foot patrol on the junction, arms folded, staring at her boot laces-I asked her did she see what happened and she looked at me if I was speaking Yiddish.

It is definitely something about the cycle lanes though-it is bad enough that they put all the drains and man hole covers in the lane but they then sink 2 inches below the surface. The Rock road looks as if there was sustained mortar fire on it for several days.

Taxi drivers feel it is perfectly acceptable to play lane Tetris in among the cyclists and will think nothing of pulling in on you if there is a fare sticking his arm out.

TBH, I have found the bus drivers to be ok...I would be intrigued to know though whether bus drivers have to do an "annual check" such as those aircrew regularly undergo? I am pretty sure that taxi drivers as professional drivers do not, which really is a disgrace.

I still feel however that it is the pedestrians and inexperienced/piss poor cyclists that will get you first-blatant light breaking, overtaking on the left, wrong way down one way streets, cycling on the foot path and this belief that because you are wearing a high viz jacket and a helmet half way back across your head that you are invincible..

Yes it is a case of "Be careful out there" but it should also be a case of "Cop on, wake up, concentrate and have some respect for all fellow road users"

Rant over:mad:

sbs2010 · 28-08-2014 11:32pm

As a driver I think the on road lanes are good. A constant reminder of the fact that cyclists exist and how much room they need.

As cyclist they give me some confidence that vehicles behind will consider me.

I think the left turn hits will happen with or without cycle lanes. The only common factor is a driver not taking proper care/attention.

I got knocked off a long time ago by a van turning sharp left across me (no cycle lane). Ever since I ALWAYS glance behind as I approach a left turn.

If there's a car in the distance I'll speed up to cross the junction. If they are too close for that I'll move out a little into the road to defend my position. And if I don't like the look of their speed or road position I'll adjust as necessary.

That's my 2c worth. Wouldn't blame the cycle lane in OPs case. A dopey driver will hit someone with or without.

beauf · 28-08-2014 11:45pm

I find cycle lanes useful. But I also believe in taking the lane where appropriate. But don't be ass about it. Move back soon as you can. But don't rely on lanes to protect you. Be careful around buses & trucks. But especially taxi's. Taxi's are completely unpredictable.

lukegjpotter · 28-08-2014 11:49pm

I got hit today in Terraure. Was stopped at a traffic light. Lady wasn't indicating that she was going left. We both went. Ripped leg warmer and four bruises.

endacl · 29-08-2014 12:00am

lukegjpotter wrote: »

I got hit today in Terraure. Was stopped at a traffic light. Lady wasn't indicating that she was going left. We both went. Ripped leg warmer and four bruises.

Doesn't matter if she was indicating or not. An indicator is only an 'indication' of intent. Her mirror should have taken precedence there. She, obviously, had no business turning through you. Little orange blinky light or no little orange blinky light.

Glad you're OK. Hope the incident left her shaking and reflective.

UDP · 29-08-2014 8:06am

endacl wrote: »

Doesn't matter if she was indicating or not. An indicator is only an 'indication' of intent. Her mirror should have taken precedence there. She, obviously, had no business turning through you. Little orange blinky light or no little orange blinky light.

Glad you're OK. Hope the incident left her shaking and reflective.

It does matter though. It's illegal to undertake a vehicle if it is indicating to turn left unless you can safely pass them before they begin their turn. I see so many cyclists everyday think because they are in the cycle lane they have full right of way. Many cyclists I encounter on my daily commute into dublin city centre need to realise that they sometimes legally have to give way to traffic. There is a good thread somewhere on this forum that lists the applicable laws - on mobile so can't link. Since I have started commuting has made me dread the thought of driving through the city.

Pinch Flat · 29-08-2014 8:29am

Hope you make a speedy recovery op - sounds nasty.

Got so sick of taxis sweeping into get fares on the north quays that I'll command the bus lane from the bridge at Houston to my turn at Christchurch. They can beep and eff and blind all they like - but I'm not getting a broken collar bone cos some tool sweeps in for a €10 fare. And I'm keeping up with the traffic as well so not slowing anyone down.

There's one stop in particular - I think it's an airport bus stop - the taxi men will slow down in the hope of picking up a fare and if there's one there they'll happily barge you out of the way. Too many close calls.

Koobcam · 29-08-2014 9:06am

I try to avoid cycling up the inside of backed-up traffic if possible, especially anywhere near a junction. I also try to avoid the possibility of sitting in someone's blind spot and would usually just cycle up the outside of anyone indicating left. there have been loads of times where I have been forced into an unplanned left turn by someone who turned left while totally unaware of my presence-I think in almost every instance, it really is a case of the driver not seeing you. One thing I never, ever do is go up the inside of a truck or bus-those things will kill you.

Alek · 29-08-2014 9:16am

It does matter though. It's illegal to undertake a vehicle if it is indicating to turn left unless you can safely pass them before they begin their turn. I see so many cyclists everyday think because they are in the cycle lane they have full right of way.

Cycle lane is a traffic lane. Vehicle that has to cross a cycle lane in order to turn left must give way to the cyclist, as if it was a car in a lane going straight. Blinking orange light or not.

If there is no cycle lane, it is a different story.

galwaycyclist · 29-08-2014 9:56am

Alek wrote: »

Cycle lane is a traffic lane. Vehicle that has to cross a cycle lane in order to turn left must give way to the cyclist, as if it was a car in a lane going straight. Blinking orange light or not.

If there is no cycle lane, it is a different story.

Sadly no. Irish traffic law does not include cycle track markings in the definition of traffic lane. This might have been simply sloppy work on the part of the civil servants who drafted the traffic regulations or it might have been that they wanted it that way. See other threads re cycle tracks that force cyclists to stop at every junction.

Either way, in Ireland, there is nothing in the traffic regulations that you can point at as saying motorists must yield to cyclists in cycle lanes.

That said there is a general duty to avoid accident and injury.

Alek · 29-08-2014 10:07am

Sadly no.

I'm flabbergasted it that's so.

:mad:

UDP · 29-08-2014 10:19am

Alek wrote: »

I'm flabbergasted it that's so.

:mad:

the problem is it seems that many if not most cyclists do not know this.

desertcircus · 29-08-2014 10:22am

UDP wrote: »

the problem is it seems that many if not most cyclists do not know this.

The problem is that that's the law in the first place.

rp · 29-08-2014 10:24am

Alek wrote: »

Cycle lane is a traffic lane. Vehicle that has to cross a cycle lane in order to turn left must give way to the cyclist, as if it was a car in a lane going straight. Blinking orange light or not.

If there is no cycle lane, it is a different story.

In addition, the clarification to the law a couple of years back allows bicycles to pass cars on the left provided the cars are going slower (kind of strange to state that, though, as the law of physics already cover that point)

UDP · 29-08-2014 10:34am

desertcircus wrote: »

The problem is that that's the law in the first place.

I don't know if it needs to be changed though. If cyclists had right of way overtaking on the left or would be next to impossible to drive in the city centre. I don't think it's a big deal for us cyclists to slow down and let a car make its turn left if they are ahead and indicating and if they cyclist cannot complete the undertake before the car starts its turn.

Pinch Flat · 29-08-2014 10:58am

UDP wrote: »

I don't know if it needs to be changed though. If cyclists had right of way overtaking on the left or would be next to impossible to drive in the city centre. I don't think it's a big deal for us cyclists to slow down and let a car make its turn left if they are ahead and indicating and if they cyclist cannot complete the undertake before the car starts its turn.

Works well for one car but if there's two or three turning left, then you're stopped in the cycle lane while cars turn in front. Easy solution - stay in the middle of the lane, move back in when passed the junction.

UDP · 29-08-2014 11:07am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Works well for one car but if there's two or three turning left, then you're stopped in the cycle lane while cars turn in front. Easy solution - stay in the middle of the lane, move back in when passed the junction.

as long as you can overtake the car safely before they start their turn then there is nothing stopping you going ahead one or two of the cars and moving into a slot behind one of the cars. Can you imagine what it would be like for cars to wait for a long line of bikes to pass on the inside or watching out for some tool cycling at 30/40km/ph down the inside going straight on while the car is beginning a left turn. There has to be give and take between road users. We cannot be expected to always get right of way since after all we are fully entitled to use the road like any other vehicle and not use the added entitlement of overtaking on the left (that comes with conditions attached).

galwaycyclist · 29-08-2014 11:23am

UDP wrote: »

the problem is it seems that many if not most cyclists do not know this.

desertcircus wrote: »

The problem is that that's the law in the first place.

Yes and yes. The state should be clear with its citizens about what their duties are or are not before the law. However in Ireland it doesnt work that way. The dropping of the requirement to use cycle lanes in 2012 was not accompanied by any publicity or education campaign.

If the Irish choose to differ their traffic law from other countries then this should be either made clear to visitors or the law should be changed to match usual expecations.

UDP wrote: »

I don't know if it needs to be changed though. If cyclists had right of way overtaking on the left or would be next to impossible to drive in the city centre. I don't think it's a big deal for us cyclists to slow down and let a car make its turn left if they are ahead and indicating and if they cyclist cannot complete the undertake before the car starts its turn.

To ask a question that may not be obvious to an Irish observer "should driver convenience be the priority in any city or town centre".

The idea of turning drivers having to yield to passing cyclists and pedestrians is standard elsewhere in Europe. Rather than being considered an impossibility it is a normal part of traffic management - to the point that, at traffic lights, all modes walking, cycling and motorist can get a green light for the same direction at the same time and turning motorists are expected to wait - on green.

As above if the Irish wish to adopt the trappings of other countries such as "European" inspired cycle lanes - then should we not also bring in the same traffic laws?

UDP · 29-08-2014 11:32am

The cycle lanes were added in a half arsed way and the road would be safer without them for the most part. We should go all in with laws and proper cycling infrastructure or not at all. This half arsed setup is dangerous for all road users.

Chips Lovell · 29-08-2014 11:37am

I'd always move into the middle of the lane when passing through a junction, regardless of whether you're going straight or turning and regardless of whether there's a cycle lane or not, i.e. be on the bumper of the car in front of you and stay there until you've cleared the junction.

Pinch Flat · 29-08-2014 11:41am

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I'd always move into the middle of the lane when passing through a junction, regardless of whether you're going straight or turning and regardless of whether there's a cycle lane or not, i.e. be on the bumper of the car in front of you and stay there until you've cleared the junction.

Same here in the absence of quality cycling infrastructure and a culture of the car having priority over the cyclist, defensive cycling like this is the way to protect yourself. Both times I've been knocked off my bike have been in these situations where I thought the driver would be intelligent enough not to come across me. You learn the lesson the hard way and look after no.1

cdaly_ · 29-08-2014 12:17pm

sbs2010 wrote: »

As a driver I think the on road lanes are good. A constant reminder of the fact that cyclists exist and how much room they need.

The trouble with this is that it's very easy for a non-cyclist driver to assume that this is all the room they need. Now the driver fails to account for the cyclist swerving to avoid a pothole/lethal wet manhole cover or other obstruction and we end up with conflict.

Carpentry · 29-08-2014 5:55pm

Zyzz wrote: »

Hope you reported it to the Gardai!

like they would give a ****...

Plasid · 30-08-2014 9:25am

It's the inexperienced / idiot that undertakes moving or clearly about to move traffic indicating left, but what really passes me off and I have had a number of incidents recently is the overtake followed by immediate pulling in in front or left turn sometimes with or without indication... Lovely example was the boys from Ncps pulling into a bus stop in ranelagh to go clamp people, passed me, went about 10 feet, magic indicator and crossed the "bike lane" into the bus stop...

rp · 30-08-2014 3:17pm

Plasid wrote: »

but what really passes me off and I have had a number of incidents recently is the overtake followed by immediate pulling in in front or left turn sometimes with or without indication...

Yeah, I see that on a daily basis, and buses seem to be the worse offenders: must pass out a bike at any cost and then almost miss the next stop. I guess they get a bonus if they can beat a bike on a given journey?

ckeego · 30-08-2014 5:30pm

rp wrote: »

Yeah, I see that on a daily basis, and buses seem to be the worse offenders: must pass out a bike at any cost and then almost miss the next stop. I guess they get a bonus if they can beat a bike on a given journey?

It doesn't help that most of the cycle lanes are routed through the bus stops.

The Rock road is again a good example where because of the width of the bus lane, the buses to remain within the margins of the bus lane will drive well within the margins of the cycle lane-Southbound when you factor in the manhole covers, drains and cracked surface, when you factor in the buses/taxis/cars that shouldn't be in the bus lane, it is an accident rich environment.

As an aside, Cyclist got taken out of it at 630am Friday morning by a car who pulled straight left across him after overtaking. Happened on Booterstown avenue. Daily occurrence as the motorists either don't care or misjudge the speed that the cyclist is doing-we all don't have 2 baguettes in a basket on the front and some onions around the neck!!:rolleyes:

Reminder: stay out of cycle lanes

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